2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time: #7 selection

[thedangerouskitchen]

Boston was dead last in offensive rating 3 times when they won titles in Russell's era and second last a few other times. The ONLY time they were top half in offensive rating was 1967, and that was one of two years they DIDN'T win the title. They won with defense. Don't confuse playing fast with a great offense. Top defensive rating 12 out of 13 years and second ONCE with Russell.

Who said anything about OR...?

I'm talking about SCORING... and the fact that Boston was Top 1-3 in the league for their first 8 Championships AND the fact that Russell didn't have to dominate in that facet in order for the Celtics to win.

Jordan "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball. Russell didn't...

Period.

Kinda helps your raw scoring when you're lapping the league in possessions per game.

The point is Jordan "had to" be a dominant Scorer and Defender in order for the Bulls to win. Russell did not have to dominate both sides of the floor for the Celtics to win.

...and really, I don't see how this point can be refuted.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Who said anything about OR...?

I'm talking about SCORING... and the fact that Boston was Top 1-3 in the league for their first 8 Championships AND the fact that Russell didn't have to dominate in that facet in order for the Celtics to win.

Jordan "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball. Russell didn't...

Period.

You're right. Being dead last in offensive ratings and first in defensive ratings is irrelevant. Silly me.

You can't win unless you SCORE MORE points than your opponent... so yes, silly you.

On that note... good night TDK. Have another night cap. You're obviously smashed so how much harm can one more do right?

[FPL]

Who said anything about OR...?

I'm talking about SCORING... and the fact that Boston was Top 1-3 in the league for their first 8 Championships AND the fact that Russell didn't have to dominate in that facet in order for the Celtics to win.

Jordan "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball. Russell didn't...

Period.

Kinda helps your raw scoring when you're lapping the league in possessions per game.

The point is Jordan "had to" be a dominant Scorer and Defender in order for the Bulls to win. Russell did not have to dominate both sides of the floor for the Celtics to win.

...and really, I don't see how this point can be refuted.

Dominant defender is relative. I know we feel differently on this matter, but the dominant defense Russell played was orders of magnitude more impactful than the dominant defense Jordan played. I don't have a problem with saying Jordan was the best two guard ever defensively, but by the numbers, his impact on the defensive end pales in comparison to that of Russell or other GOAT level big man defenders. We've agreed to disagree on the matter in the past so I won't debate it, but that's what the argument is.

[thedangerouskitchen]

You're right. Being dead last in offensive ratings and first in defensive ratings is irrelevant. Silly me.

You can't win unless you SCORE MORE points than your opponent... so yes, silly you.

On that note... good night TDK. Have another night cap. You're obviously smashed so how much harm can one more do right?

Fuck off Grizz... I have been civil with you so don't be a sore loser just because you got beat down.

Bottom line: Jordan had to be a dominant Scorer and Defender for the Bulls to win. Russell didn't.

Take those facts to bed with you chump...

[LNS]

Boston ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in Scoring for their first 8 Championships... and during 3 of those seasons (57, 59 and 64) Russell averaged 13, 9 and 11 PPG in the Finals. (He also averaged just 9-PPG in the 69 Championship Finals.)

Russell didn't "have to" dominate both sides of the ball. Jordan did.

Who cares what MJ had to do?No one pays that no sense any mind when discussing GOAT lists. These are always personal and team accolades, maybe with a smattering of career stats thrown in.

If we give Russell awards he didn't win, but that he would have if they existed at the time, he trumps MJ and it's not really close.

Astute hoops fans care because it tells you that one guy (Russell) would have won those awards while often taking a vacation from half the game, while the other guy (MJ) had to be elite on both ends of the court in order to win those same awards.

If you can't understand why that is significant insofar as the discussion for GOAT is concerned, perhaps you should try following another sport, sport.

Quite frankly, if we're going to split hairs, no one in their right mind would award someone something that didn't exist. It's not totally fair from either side, to be honest.

But be that as it may, hypothetically speaking it's the angle we're using, and it's enough to push Russell over the top and make him the GOAT. He's already the greatest winner in NBA history, bar none. When you add in all the awards he would've won, but never had a chance to due to them not existing at the time, he becomes the greatest winner AND the most decorated player in NBA history. That makes him the GOAT, easily.

And as for MJ being the best scorer and best defender ever at his position, well that's all well and good, and it makes him the GOAT shooting guard. But there have been better scorers, and there have been better defenders, and I'm afraid that being the best at all time at your position doesn't quite trump being the greatest winner and most decorated player in NBA history.

Not by a long shot.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Kinda helps your raw scoring when you're lapping the league in possessions per game.

The point is Jordan "had to" be a dominant Scorer and Defender in order for the Bulls to win. Russell did not have to dominate both sides of the floor for the Celtics to win.

...and really, I don't see how this point can be refuted.

Dominant defender is relative. I know we feel differently on this matter, but the dominant defense Russell played was orders of magnitude more impactful than the dominant defense Jordan played. I don't have a problem with saying Jordan was the best two guard ever defensively, but by the numbers, his impact on the defensive end pales in comparison to that of Russell or other GOAT level big man defenders. We've agreed to disagree on the matter in the past so I won't debate it, but that's what the argument is.

Still doesn't change the fact that Jordan "had to" dominate both sides of the ball in order for the Bulls to win, while Russell didn't have that burden.

...and let's not forget the Bulls won 6 Championships on the strength of their perimeter Defense, so I disagree with your statement about Russ' Defense being so more more impactful. But that's a discussion for another time.

[FPL]

The point is Jordan "had to" be a dominant Scorer and Defender in order for the Bulls to win. Russell did not have to dominate both sides of the floor for the Celtics to win.

...and really, I don't see how this point can be refuted.

Dominant defender is relative. I know we feel differently on this matter, but the dominant defense Russell played was orders of magnitude more impactful than the dominant defense Jordan played. I don't have a problem with saying Jordan was the best two guard ever defensively, but by the numbers, his impact on the defensive end pales in comparison to that of Russell or other GOAT level big man defenders. We've agreed to disagree on the matter in the past so I won't debate it, but that's what the argument is.

Still doesn't change the fact that Jordan "had to" dominate both sides of the ball in order for the Bulls to win, while Russell didn't have that burden.

...and let's not forget the Bulls won 6 Championships on the strength of their perimeter Defense, so I disagree with your statement about Russ' Defense being so more more impactful. But that's a discussion for another time.

I'm fine agreeing to disagree. I understand your position and respect it (as we've said in the past), but I just feel differently.

BTW...If we're forcing guys to dominate both sides of the ball handicapping by position, we really need to give Wilt, Hakeem, and Duncan (who won a ton as well) a boost above Magic and Russell (and to a lesser degree Shaq, Kareem, and Bird) who dominated one side of the ball.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Who cares what MJ had to do?No one pays that no sense any mind when discussing GOAT lists. These are always personal and team accolades, maybe with a smattering of career stats thrown in.

If we give Russell awards he didn't win, but that he would have if they existed at the time, he trumps MJ and it's not really close.

Astute hoops fans care because it tells you that one guy (Russell) would have won those awards while often taking a vacation from half the game, while the other guy (MJ) had to be elite on both ends of the court in order to win those same awards.

If you can't understand why that is significant insofar as the discussion for GOAT is concerned, perhaps you should try following another sport, sport.

Quite frankly, if we're going to split hairs, no one in their right mind would award someone something that didn't exist. It's not totally fair from either side, to be honest.

But be that as it may, hypothetically speaking it's the angle we're using, and it's enough to push Russell over the top and make him the GOAT. He's already the greatest winner in NBA history, bar none. When you add in all the awards he would've won, but never had a chance to due to them not existing at the time, he becomes the greatest winner AND the most decorated player in NBA history. That makes him the GOAT, easily.

And as for MJ being the best scorer and best defender ever at his position, well that's all well and good, and it makes him the GOAT shooting guard. But there have been better scorers, and there have been better defenders, and I'm afraid that being the best at all time at your position doesn't quite trump being the greatest winner and most decorated player in NBA history.

Not by a long shot.

I have long maintained that only Russell and Jabbar have any sort of argument for GOAT (over MJ), and that's with the assumption that Russ wins a certain number of awards that weren't around back then... but I have also given numerous reasons why Jordan is still #1 in my mind, and I can give a boatload of other reasons as well.

If "you" disagree that's your opinion, but it doesn't change my position.

Oh, and FTR... there has never been a better Scorer in the Playoffs / Finals than Jordan, and only Wilt rivals MJ during the regular season.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Dominant defender is relative. I know we feel differently on this matter, but the dominant defense Russell played was orders of magnitude more impactful than the dominant defense Jordan played. I don't have a problem with saying Jordan was the best two guard ever defensively, but by the numbers, his impact on the defensive end pales in comparison to that of Russell or other GOAT level big man defenders. We've agreed to disagree on the matter in the past so I won't debate it, but that's what the argument is.

Still doesn't change the fact that Jordan "had to" dominate both sides of the ball in order for the Bulls to win, while Russell didn't have that burden.

...and let's not forget the Bulls won 6 Championships on the strength of their perimeter Defense, so I disagree with your statement about Russ' Defense being so more more impactful. But that's a discussion for another time.

I'm fine agreeing to disagree. I understand your position and respect it (as we've said in the past), but I just feel differently.

BTW...If we're forcing guys to dominate both sides of the ball handicapping by position, we really need to give Wilt, Hakeem, and Duncan (who won a ton as well) a boost above Magic and Russell (and to a lesser degree Shaq, Kareem, and Bird) who dominated one side of the ball.

I'm not forcing anything because when you're debating who among 2 players is the GOAT then you're likely going to have to dig really deep down the criteria list in order to come up with arguments one way or the other. In other words, it's not as simple as saying Bird ---> McHale.

That being said, Wilt and Dream have only 2 Championships so the only guy on your list who deserves a bump is Duncan... and personally I have him ranked #6 all-time (but I could very easily be convinced that he's ranked as high as #4, behind only MJ, Jabbar and Russ).

[LNS]

Astute hoops fans care because it tells you that one guy (Russell) would have won those awards while often taking a vacation from half the game, while the other guy (MJ) had to be elite on both ends of the court in order to win those same awards.

If you can't understand why that is significant insofar as the discussion for GOAT is concerned, perhaps you should try following another sport, sport.

Quite frankly, if we're going to split hairs, no one in their right mind would award someone something that didn't exist. It's not totally fair from either side, to be honest.

But be that as it may, hypothetically speaking it's the angle we're using, and it's enough to push Russell over the top and make him the GOAT. He's already the greatest winner in NBA history, bar none. When you add in all the awards he would've won, but never had a chance to due to them not existing at the time, he becomes the greatest winner AND the most decorated player in NBA history. That makes him the GOAT, easily.

And as for MJ being the best scorer and best defender ever at his position, well that's all well and good, and it makes him the GOAT shooting guard. But there have been better scorers, and there have been better defenders, and I'm afraid that being the best at all time at your position doesn't quite trump being the greatest winner and most decorated player in NBA history.

Not by a long shot.

I have long maintained that only Russell and Jabbar have any sort of argument for GOAT (over MJ), and that's with the assumption that Russ wins a certain number of awards that weren't around back then... but I have also given numerous reasons why Jordan is still #1 in my mind, and I can give a boatload of other reasons as well.

If "you" disagree that's your opinion, but it doesn't change my position.

Oh, and FTR... there has never been a better Scorer in the Playoffs / Finals than Jordan, and only Wilt rivals MJ during the regular season.

Oh you'll change your mind, make no mistake about that. I've been slowly but surely edging my way towards victory. It's an endurance match, at this point. First man to go to bed first loses.

Last post = win

Message board law.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Quite frankly, if we're going to split hairs, no one in their right mind would award someone something that didn't exist. It's not totally fair from either side, to be honest.

But be that as it may, hypothetically speaking it's the angle we're using, and it's enough to push Russell over the top and make him the GOAT. He's already the greatest winner in NBA history, bar none. When you add in all the awards he would've won, but never had a chance to due to them not existing at the time, he becomes the greatest winner AND the most decorated player in NBA history. That makes him the GOAT, easily.

And as for MJ being the best scorer and best defender ever at his position, well that's all well and good, and it makes him the GOAT shooting guard. But there have been better scorers, and there have been better defenders, and I'm afraid that being the best at all time at your position doesn't quite trump being the greatest winner and most decorated player in NBA history.

Not by a long shot.

I have long maintained that only Russell and Jabbar have any sort of argument for GOAT (over MJ), and that's with the assumption that Russ wins a certain number of awards that weren't around back then... but I have also given numerous reasons why Jordan is still #1 in my mind, and I can give a boatload of other reasons as well.

If "you" disagree that's your opinion, but it doesn't change my position.

Oh, and FTR... there has never been a better Scorer in the Playoffs / Finals than Jordan, and only Wilt rivals MJ during the regular season.

Oh you'll change your mind, make no mistake about that. I've been slowly but surely edging my way towards victory. It's an endurance match, at this point. First man to go to bed first loses.

Last post = win

Message board law.

lol... I guess you win then... I'm 2 hours ahead of you and retiring for the night.

[LNS]

I have long maintained that only Russell and Jabbar have any sort of argument for GOAT (over MJ), and that's with the assumption that Russ wins a certain number of awards that weren't around back then... but I have also given numerous reasons why Jordan is still #1 in my mind, and I can give a boatload of other reasons as well.

If "you" disagree that's your opinion, but it doesn't change my position.

Oh, and FTR... there has never been a better Scorer in the Playoffs / Finals than Jordan, and only Wilt rivals MJ during the regular season.

Oh you'll change your mind, make no mistake about that. I've been slowly but surely edging my way towards victory. It's an endurance match, at this point. First man to go to bed first loses.

Last post = win

Message board law.

lol... I guess you win then... I'm 2 hours ahead of you and retiring for the night.

Peace dude

[Deez]

#8