vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Russell would have 7 or 8. Got it.
Possibly... but what's that got to do with LNS penalizing players who played before the award came out?
I think it's past your bedtime Grizz... you're having trouble staying focused.
What do you mean "what does that have to do..?"
lol it's YOUR LOGIC, sparky! You can't say "we shouldn't penalize player A for not winning an award that didn't exist", and then feign indifference when the same logic is used for player B.
So you're lying now?
Show me where I said that...
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."
"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Russell would have 7 or 8. Got it.
Possibly... but what's that got to do with LNS penalizing players who played before the award came out?
I think it's past your bedtime Grizz... you're having trouble staying focused.
Maybe because the award hadn't come out and you don't want to give Russell credit for his? You always want to suck and whistle at the same time TDK.
And it is close to my bedtime, even though I am in a later time zone than you. Might explain why I have a six pack at 55 and you are obese despite being ten years younger.
You have a six pack, a bum hip AND a limp dick... what's your point?
Regardless... I asked LNS and I'll ask you: Show me where I failed to give Russell credit for the awards he probably wins fool.
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."
"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
thedangerouskitchen wrote:
In other words you're penalizing Havlicek (and Mikan) for not winning FMVP during the seasons when it didn't exist.
Got it...
If we don't penalize him, then we use that logic across the board, understand? That means Russell has 6-8 FMVP's, maybe 5-7 DPOY awards, multiple All NBA Defensive 1st Team selections, and he'd probably be an All Time leader in blocked shots as well.
He already had an argument for the GOAT spot, but that bump in accolades he didn't win should be enough to put him past MJ.
Sound fair?
I think pretty much anyone who currently thinks Russell is the GOAT has already taken those things into account.
Even with those awards, however, Russell was a liability on Offense / Scoring for most of his career... he didn't "have to" dominate on both sides of the ball because he played alongside an Offensively dominant team.
Jordan, on the other hand, "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball in order for the Bulls to win... thus, Jordan was still the (much, MUCH) better two-way player, making more of an impact on Offense and Defense combined than Russell.
Russell inherited a playoff caliber team with a HOF backcourt and the #1 Offense and #1 Rebounding team in the league. Jordan inherited a bottom-feeder.
Jordan is regarded as the most dominanting Playoffs / Finals performer in history... and the most Clutch ever.
Jordan is the greatest Scorer and Defender at his position... Russ can't say that. Jordan was his era's undisputed best player and greatest winner. Russ can't say that either.
In other words there are still a boatload of reasons why Jordan is the GOAT.. regardless of how many awards Russell would have won had they been around back then.
Funny, but I don't recall Russell needing the best players of his generation (before or after him) to retire or get injured before he started winning. In fact,the only years he didn't win the whole enchilada, he was the injured one. Funny how that worked.
thedangerouskitchen wrote:
Possibly... but what's that got to do with LNS penalizing players who played before the award came out?
I think it's past your bedtime Grizz... you're having trouble staying focused.
Maybe because the award hadn't come out and you don't want to give Russell credit for his? You always want to suck and whistle at the same time TDK.
And it is close to my bedtime, even though I am in a later time zone than you. Might explain why I have a six pack at 55 and you are obese despite being ten years younger.
You have a six pack, a bum hip AND a limp dick... what's your point?
Regardless... I asked LNS and I'll ask you: Show me where I failed to give Russell credit for the awards he probably wins fool.
thedangerouskitchen wrote:
In other words you're penalizing Havlicek (and Mikan) for not winning FMVP during the seasons when it didn't exist.
Got it...
If we don't penalize him, then we use that logic across the board, understand? That means Russell has 6-8 FMVP's, maybe 5-7 DPOY awards, multiple All NBA Defensive 1st Team selections, and he'd probably be an All Time leader in blocked shots as well.
He already had an argument for the GOAT spot, but that bump in accolades he didn't win should be enough to put him past MJ.
Sound fair?
I think pretty much anyone who currently thinks Russell is the GOAT has already taken those things into account.
Even with those awards, however, Russell was a liability on Offense / Scoring for most of his career... he didn't "have to" dominate on both sides of the ball because he played alongside an Offensively dominant team.
Jordan, on the other hand, "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball in order for the Bulls to win... thus, Jordan was still the (much, MUCH) better two-way player, making more of an impact on Offense and Defense combined than Russell.
Russell inherited a playoff caliber team with a HOF backcourt and the #1 Offense and #1 Rebounding team in the league. Jordan inherited a bottom-feeder.
Jordan is regarded as the most dominanting Playoffs / Finals performer in history... and the most Clutch ever.
Jordan is the greatest Scorer and Defender at his position... Russ can't say that. Jordan was his era's undisputed best player and greatest winner. Russ can't say that either.
In other words there are still a boatload of reasons why Jordan is the GOAT.. regardless of how many awards Russell would have won had they been around back then.
Nope, not buying it. Russell with his current résumé, AND another 6+ FMVP's and 6+ DPOY's added to the pile, would make him hands down the GOAT.
That's indisputable.
Olaf wrote:I would fuck them up with an ice pick.
I could also fuck you up, if you want to be fucked up.
If we don't penalize him, then we use that logic across the board, understand? That means Russell has 6-8 FMVP's, maybe 5-7 DPOY awards, multiple All NBA Defensive 1st Team selections, and he'd probably be an All Time leader in blocked shots as well.
He already had an argument for the GOAT spot, but that bump in accolades he didn't win should be enough to put him past MJ.
Sound fair?
I think pretty much anyone who currently thinks Russell is the GOAT has already taken those things into account.
Even with those awards, however, Russell was a liability on Offense / Scoring for most of his career... he didn't "have to" dominate on both sides of the ball because he played alongside an Offensively dominant team.
Jordan, on the other hand, "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball in order for the Bulls to win... thus, Jordan was still the (much, MUCH) better two-way player, making more of an impact on Offense and Defense combined than Russell.
Russell inherited a playoff caliber team with a HOF backcourt and the #1 Offense and #1 Rebounding team in the league. Jordan inherited a bottom-feeder.
Jordan is regarded as the most dominanting Playoffs / Finals performer in history... and the most Clutch ever.
Jordan is the greatest Scorer and Defender at his position... Russ can't say that. Jordan was his era's undisputed best player and greatest winner. Russ can't say that either.
In other words there are still a boatload of reasons why Jordan is the GOAT.. regardless of how many awards Russell would have won had they been around back then.
Funny, but I don't recall Russell needing the best players of his generation (before or after him) to retire or get injured before he started winning. In fact,the only years he didn't win the whole enchilada, he was the injured one. Funny how that worked.
Funny how Russell's Celtics were stacked with far more talent than his opponents... funny too how the Celtics managed to win 4 Championships with Russell averaging 9, 9, 11 and 13-PPG in the Finals.
Imagine the Bulls with Jordan producing such insignificant Offense...
Last edited by thedangerouskitchen on Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."
"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
Russell's the GOAT, according to tdk. But I'm afraid it's too late to go back and change the list, so MJ will just have to remain there as the false GOAT.
LakersNeedShaq wrote:Russell's the GOAT, according to tdk. But I'm afraid it's too late to go back and change the list, so MJ will just have to remain there as the false GOAT.
I think pretty much anyone who currently thinks Russell is the GOAT has already taken those things into account.
Even with those awards, however, Russell was a liability on Offense / Scoring for most of his career... he didn't "have to" dominate on both sides of the ball because he played alongside an Offensively dominant team.
Jordan, on the other hand, "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball in order for the Bulls to win... thus, Jordan was still the (much, MUCH) better two-way player, making more of an impact on Offense and Defense combined than Russell.
Russell inherited a playoff caliber team with a HOF backcourt and the #1 Offense and #1 Rebounding team in the league. Jordan inherited a bottom-feeder.
Jordan is regarded as the most dominanting Playoffs / Finals performer in history... and the most Clutch ever.
Jordan is the greatest Scorer and Defender at his position... Russ can't say that. Jordan was his era's undisputed best player and greatest winner. Russ can't say that either.
In other words there are still a boatload of reasons why Jordan is the GOAT.. regardless of how many awards Russell would have won had they been around back then.
Funny, but I don't recall Russell needing the best players of his generation (before or after him) to retire or get injured before he started winning. In fact,the only years he didn't win the whole enchilada, he was the injured one. Funny how that worked.
Funny how Russell's Celtics were stacked with far more talent than his opponents... funny too how the Celtics managed to win 2 Championships with Russell 9-PPG in the Finals.
Imagine the Bulls with Jordan averaging 9-PPG.
Fpliii has been through this with you many times. Celtics won with defense. The offenses were generally middle of the pack at best. The defensive rating with Russell best in league 12 out of 13 years and 2nd the other year. Before he joined, they were second worst in ppg allowed and the year after he retired gave up 11 more ppg and went from champions to lottery.
LakersNeedShaq wrote:Russell's the GOAT, according to tdk. But I'm afraid it's too late to go back and change the list, so MJ will just have to remain there as the false GOAT.
LakersNeedShaq wrote:Russell's the GOAT, according to tdk. But I'm afraid it's too late to go back and change the list, so MJ will just have to remain there as the false GOAT.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Funny, but I don't recall Russell needing the best players of his generation (before or after him) to retire or get injured before he started winning. In fact,the only years he didn't win the whole enchilada, he was the injured one. Funny how that worked.
Funny how Russell's Celtics were stacked with far more talent than his opponents... funny too how the Celtics managed to win 2 Championships with Russell 9-PPG in the Finals.
Imagine the Bulls with Jordan averaging 9-PPG.
Fpliii has been through this with you many times. Celtics won with defense. The offenses were generally middle of the pack at best. The defensive rating with Russell best in league 12 out of 13 years and 2nd the other year. Before he joined, they were second worst in ppg allowed and the year after he retired gave up 11 more ppg and went from champions to lottery.
Boston ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in Scoring for their first 8 Championships... and during 3 of those seasons (57, 59 and 64) Russell averaged 13, 9 and 11 PPG in the Finals. (He also averaged just 9-PPG in the 69 Championship Finals.)
Russell didn't "have to" dominate both sides of the ball. Jordan did.
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."
"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
thedangerouskitchen wrote:
Funny how Russell's Celtics were stacked with far more talent than his opponents... funny too how the Celtics managed to win 2 Championships with Russell 9-PPG in the Finals.
Imagine the Bulls with Jordan averaging 9-PPG.
Fpliii has been through this with you many times. Celtics won with defense. The offenses were generally middle of the pack at best. The defensive rating with Russell best in league 12 out of 13 years and 2nd the other year. Before he joined, they were second worst in ppg allowed and the year after he retired gave up 11 more ppg and went from champions to lottery.
Boston ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in Scoring for their first 8 Championships... and during 3 of those seasons (57, 59 and 64) Russell averaged 13, 9 and 11 PPG in the Finals. (He also averaged just 9-PPG in the 69 Championship Finals.)
Russell didn't "have to" dominate both sides of the ball. Jordan did.
Who cares what MJ had to do? No one pays that nonsense any mind when discussing GOAT lists. These are always personal and team accolades, maybe with a smattering of career stats thrown in.
If we give Russell awards he didn't win, but that he would have if they existed at the time, he trumps MJ and it's not really close.
Olaf wrote:I would fuck them up with an ice pick.
I could also fuck you up, if you want to be fucked up.
thedangerouskitchen wrote:
Funny how Russell's Celtics were stacked with far more talent than his opponents... funny too how the Celtics managed to win 2 Championships with Russell 9-PPG in the Finals.
Imagine the Bulls with Jordan averaging 9-PPG.
Fpliii has been through this with you many times. Celtics won with defense. The offenses were generally middle of the pack at best. The defensive rating with Russell best in league 12 out of 13 years and 2nd the other year. Before he joined, they were second worst in ppg allowed and the year after he retired gave up 11 more ppg and went from champions to lottery.
Boston ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in Scoring for their first 8 Championships... and during 3 of those seasons (57, 59 and 64) Russell averaged 13, 9 and 11 PPG in the Finals. (He also averaged just 9-PPG in the 69 Championship Finals.)
Russell didn't "have to" dominate both sides of the ball. Jordan did.
Boston was dead last in offensive rating 3 times when they won titles in Russell's era and second last a few other times. The ONLY time they were top half in offensive rating was 1967, and that was one of two years they DIDN'T win the title. They won with defense. Don't confuse playing fast with a great offense. Top defensive rating 12 out of 13 years and second ONCE with Russell.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Fpliii has been through this with you many times. Celtics won with defense. The offenses were generally middle of the pack at best. The defensive rating with Russell best in league 12 out of 13 years and 2nd the other year. Before he joined, they were second worst in ppg allowed and the year after he retired gave up 11 more ppg and went from champions to lottery.
Boston ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in Scoring for their first 8 Championships... and during 3 of those seasons (57, 59 and 64) Russell averaged 13, 9 and 11 PPG in the Finals. (He also averaged just 9-PPG in the 69 Championship Finals.)
Russell didn't "have to" dominate both sides of the ball. Jordan did.
Who cares what MJ had to do?No one pays that no sense any mind when discussing GOAT lists. These are always personal and team accolades, maybe with a smattering of career stats thrown in.
If we give Russell awards he didn't win, but that he would have if they existed at the time, he trumps MJ and it's not really close.
Astute hoops fans care because it tells you that one guy (Russell) would have won those awards while often taking a vacation from half the game, while the other guy (MJ) had to be elite on both ends of the court in order to win those same awards.
If you can't understand why that is significant insofar as the discussion for GOAT is concerned, perhaps you should try following another sport, sport.
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."
"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Fpliii has been through this with you many times. Celtics won with defense. The offenses were generally middle of the pack at best. The defensive rating with Russell best in league 12 out of 13 years and 2nd the other year. Before he joined, they were second worst in ppg allowed and the year after he retired gave up 11 more ppg and went from champions to lottery.
Boston ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in Scoring for their first 8 Championships... and during 3 of those seasons (57, 59 and 64) Russell averaged 13, 9 and 11 PPG in the Finals. (He also averaged just 9-PPG in the 69 Championship Finals.)
Russell didn't "have to" dominate both sides of the ball. Jordan did.
Boston was dead last in offensive rating 3 times when they won titles in Russell's era and second last a few other times. The ONLY time they were top half in offensive rating was 1967, and that was one of two years they DIDN'T win the title. They won with defense. Don't confuse playing fast with a great offense. Top defensive rating 12 out of 13 years and second ONCE with Russell.
Who said anything about OR...?
I'm talking about SCORING... and the fact that Boston was Top 1-3 in the league for their first 8 Championships AND the fact that Russell didn't have to dominate in that facet in order for the Celtics to win.
Jordan "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball. Russell didn't...
Period.
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."
"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
Boston ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in Scoring for their first 8 Championships... and during 3 of those seasons (57, 59 and 64) Russell averaged 13, 9 and 11 PPG in the Finals. (He also averaged just 9-PPG in the 69 Championship Finals.)
Russell didn't "have to" dominate both sides of the ball. Jordan did.
Boston was dead last in offensive rating 3 times when they won titles in Russell's era and second last a few other times. The ONLY time they were top half in offensive rating was 1967, and that was one of two years they DIDN'T win the title. They won with defense. Don't confuse playing fast with a great offense. Top defensive rating 12 out of 13 years and second ONCE with Russell.
Who said anything about OR...?
I'm talking about SCORING... and the fact that Boston was Top 1-3 in the league for their first 8 Championships AND the fact that Russell didn't have to dominate in that facet in order for the Celtics to win.
Jordan "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball. Russell didn't...
Period.
You're right. Being dead last in offensive ratings and first in defensive ratings is irrelevant. Silly me.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Boston was dead last in offensive rating 3 times when they won titles in Russell's era and second last a few other times. The ONLY time they were top half in offensive rating was 1967, and that was one of two years they DIDN'T win the title. They won with defense. Don't confuse playing fast with a great offense. Top defensive rating 12 out of 13 years and second ONCE with Russell.
Who said anything about OR...?
I'm talking about SCORING... and the fact that Boston was Top 1-3 in the league for their first 8 Championships AND the fact that Russell didn't have to dominate in that facet in order for the Celtics to win.
Jordan "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball. Russell didn't...
Period.
You're right. Being dead last in offensive ratings and first in defensive ratings is irrelevant. Silly me.
You can't win unless you SCORE MORE points than your opponent... so yes, silly you.
"Today's NBA is soft, the Defense is weak, and the rules 'really' favor the Offense."
"Lebron doesn’t guard for a full game and our game plan was to get him to play defense and he left me open all game."
Boston ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in Scoring for their first 8 Championships... and during 3 of those seasons (57, 59 and 64) Russell averaged 13, 9 and 11 PPG in the Finals. (He also averaged just 9-PPG in the 69 Championship Finals.)
Russell didn't "have to" dominate both sides of the ball. Jordan did.
Boston was dead last in offensive rating 3 times when they won titles in Russell's era and second last a few other times. The ONLY time they were top half in offensive rating was 1967, and that was one of two years they DIDN'T win the title. They won with defense. Don't confuse playing fast with a great offense. Top defensive rating 12 out of 13 years and second ONCE with Russell.
Who said anything about OR...?
I'm talking about SCORING... and the fact that Boston was Top 1-3 in the league for their first 8 Championships AND the fact that Russell didn't have to dominate in that facet in order for the Celtics to win.
Jordan "had to" dominate on both sides of the ball. Russell didn't...
Period.
Kinda helps your raw scoring when you're lapping the league in possessions per game.
