2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time: #7 selection

[thedangerouskitchen]

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

Probably correct. Havlicek did win in 74 (White won in 76). If the award went to a player on the winning team, he'd win in 69 (West won in reality), and Havlicek would win in 68. We had a nice thread discussing here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=275172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exactly... ^^^^

[kobeunderbite]

So MVP "votes" now determines who was the better player, eh? I guess you will agree then, that Kevin Durant is the best player in the NBA.

That aside, when Shaq left after the 04 season, and the Lakers went from the Finals to the lottery the next season, where was Kobe?

Missing the playoffs is such an enormous hit to a legacy?

How do you explain your ranking Oscar Robertson so highly in that case, given the fact that he was in the lottery for 3 consecutive seasons during his prime?

You drunken shithead.

I'm following Grizz' argument you blithering idiot... you're clearly the one who is drunk if you can't follow the flow of a discussion.



... and where exactly do I rank Robertson, genius?

Deflection, eh? Can't even string two sentences together without tripping over your own drunken, fat feet

[vcsgrizzfan]

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

Probably correct. Havlicek did win in 74 (White won in 76). If the award went to a player on the winning team, he'd win in 69 (West won in reality), and Havlicek would win in 68. We had a nice thread discussing here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=275172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exactly... ^^^^

Wilt being held to under 12 a game in those 69 finals and Hondo being a non factor in regular season voting means nothing?

Russell was being Russell. When he left, we know what happened - lottery.

[thedangerouskitchen]

You have fucking GEORGE MIKAN on your shit list, gramps. Your hate for Kobe is legendary and your opinion in this thread is worthless.

If Russell's 1950's accomplishments count then so too do Mikan's. If Mikan's Rings count then so should his status among the all-time greats. If the HOF deems his career worthy then his name clearly needs to be included in these lists.

But regardless of all that, Kobe doesn't sniff #7 all-time. Again, if he's #7 then Hondo is Top 5.

Difference is, Mikan played in a segregated league, without a shot-clock, or offensive goaltending (there was no defensive goaltending when he first started from my understanding, but that rule was put into place in the 40s). Russell played his entire career with a shot-clock and rules prohibiting goaltending on both offense and defense. In addition, Russ dominated a league that was nearly 2/3 black by the time he retired (it's a little over 70% now).

No disrespect to Big George, but I wouldn't consider him on any list, it was just a different sport back then.

Keep in mind Mikan is the reason why a lot of today's modern day rules were put in place to begin with... because of how dominating he was.

That aside, if the NBA / HOF honor his "NBA" resume/rings/accomplishments then IMO it's silly for fans to ignore them... that would be like discounting baseball players who played in the dead-ball era.

[Y2K]

You have fucking GEORGE MIKAN on your shit list, gramps. Your hate for Kobe is legendary and your opinion in this thread is worthless.

If Russell's 1950's accomplishments count then so too do Mikan's. If Mikan's Rings count then so should his status among the all-time greats. If the HOF deems his career worthy then his name clearly needs to be included in these lists.

But regardless of all that, Kobe doesn't sniff #7 all-time. Again, if he's #7 then Hondo is Top 5.

Difference is, Mikan played in a segregated league, without a shot-clock, or offensive goaltending (there was no defensive goaltending when he first started from my understanding, but that rule was put into place in the 40s). Russell played his entire career with a shot-clock and rules prohibiting goaltending on both offense and defense. In addition, Russ dominated a league that was nearly 2/3 black by the time he retired (it's a little over 70% now).

No disrespect to Big George, but I wouldn't consider him on any list, it was just a different sport back then.

It was backyard freaking basketball back then in the Mikan era.


I know that u really want to vote Hakeem. Thing that hurts Hakeem Olajuwon is only having 2 rings, as that's the first thing that most ppl look at.

All-nba first team selections

Kareem: 10

Shaq: 8

Wilt: 7

Hakeem: 6

No disrespect to Shaq, but he racked up 7 of his selections after the competition was old and/or lacking.


Hakeem Olajuwon resume definitely gets dismissed a lot outside of the 2 rings.

[Y2K]

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

But they WEREN'T around.

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many people), with 0 Finals MVP's?

Probably because of the rest of his resume.

[elmouse03]

But they WEREN'T around.

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many people), with 0 Finals MVP's?

Probably because of the rest of his resume.

Who's fault is it that the finals MVP wasn't created till 1969?

[Y2K]

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many people), with 0 Finals MVP's?

Probably because of the rest of his resume.

Who's fault is it that the finals MVP wasn't created till 1969?

TDK.

[876Stephen]

But they WEREN'T around.

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many people), with 0 Finals MVP's?

Probably because of the rest of his resume.

And the NBA basically acknowledged that Russell would have won a lot of fmvp's by naming the award after him, lol.

[FPL]

Wilt being held to under 12 a game in those 69 finals and Hondo being a non factor in regular season voting means nothing?

Russell was being Russell. When he left, we know what happened - lottery.

To be fair, one of the posters in the thread broke down both series, and opted for Russell in 68, and seemed to be leaning in his direction in 69:

1968: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpo ... stcount=53" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1969: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpo ... stcount=53" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think you were watching those two years so I'll defer to your opinion if you feel Russell indeed was more deserving than Havlicek in each Finals.

[vcsgrizzfan]

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many people), with 0 Finals MVP's?

Probably because of the rest of his resume.

Who's fault is it that the finals MVP wasn't created till 1969?

If he was the MVP of his team every season he played (except his rookie year when he missed 1/3 of the season) I'm guessing he was probably generally the team's MVP all the time, especially since they went to the lottery when he called it a day.

[thedangerouskitchen]

How many MVP votes did Hondo get in those two years? I know Russell got lots.

When Russell retired in '69 and the Celtics went from champions to lottery, where was Hondo?

So MVP "votes" now determines who was the better player, eh? I guess you will agree then, that Kevin Durant is the best player in the NBA.

That aside, when Shaq left after the 04 season, and the Lakers went from the Finals to the lottery the next season, where was Kobe?

.

Like straw men a lot?

Players voted for MVP. Russell got the votes. Funny thing is, when he retired they went from having the top defensive rating in the league and winning a title to missing the playoffs. I'm thinking the players knew why that defense was winning titles.

So again... you are saying that MVP "votes" = who is the "better" player and that's nonsense.

...and I'm throwing your questions right back at you, so if I'm using straw man arguments what the hell are you doing?

[LNS]

Hondo owns 3 more Rings than Kobe, and would have at least 2-3 FMVP's (if the award were around back then)...

Case-closed.

We've gone over this before. You can't give out awards based upon assumptions. That'd be like me saying Russell would have 9-10 FMVP's and is the GOAT.

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many) with -0- Finals MVP's?

Because he also has multiple regular season MVP's and was considered by many as the best or second best player of his generation. Also, it's universally accepted that Russell was the "lead dog" on those title teams.

Try harder.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Probably correct. Havlicek did win in 74 (White won in 76). If the award went to a player on the winning team, he'd win in 69 (West won in reality), and Havlicek would win in 68. We had a nice thread discussing here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=275172" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exactly... ^^^^

Wilt being held to under 12 a game in those 69 finals and Hondo being a non factor in regular season voting means nothing?

Russell was being Russell. When he left, we know what happened - lottery.

When Shaq left Lakers = lottery.

Where was Kobe?

[FPL]

It was backyard freaking basketball back then in the Mikan era.


I know that u really want to vote Hakeem. Thing that hurts Hakeem Olajuwon is only having 2 rings, as that's the first thing that most ppl look at.

All-nba first team selections

Kareem: 10

Shaq: 8

Wilt: 7

Hakeem: 6

No disrespect to Shaq, but he racked up 7 of his selections after the competition was old and/or lacking.


Hakeem Olajuwon resume definitely gets dismissed a lot outside of the 2 rings.

That's true.

The funny thing is, his best season may very well have been 92-93. At that point he'd already developed his killer moves, and was still dominant on defense (he was a beast on that end the next year as well; in 94-95 the team was up and down before destroying elite seeds in the playoffs, though during the season he was suffering from anemia from anti-inflammatory pills the Rockets team doctors were prescribing...Mad Max had the same issue that year).

[elmouse03]

so anyway Duncan has clearly won this one. Time to move on to 8?

[vcsgrizzfan]

So MVP "votes" now determines who was the better player, eh? I guess you will agree then, that Kevin Durant is the best player in the NBA.

That aside, when Shaq left after the 04 season, and the Lakers went from the Finals to the lottery the next season, where was Kobe?

.

Like straw men a lot?

Players voted for MVP. Russell got the votes. Funny thing is, when he retired they went from having the top defensive rating in the league and winning a title to missing the playoffs. I'm thinking the players knew why that defense was winning titles.

So again... you are saying that MVP "votes" = who is the "better" player and that's nonsense.

...and I'm throwing your questions right back at you, so if I'm using straw man arguments what the hell are you doing?

You are talking out of your ass like you pretty much always do. I don't use straw men.

[thedangerouskitchen]

But they WEREN'T around.

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many people), with 0 Finals MVP's?

Probably because of the rest of his resume.

Which is largely based on what, exactly?

[Deez]

so anyway Duncan has clearly won this one. Time to move on to 8?

Yeah let's get to #8

[LNS]

So why is Russell considered the GOAT (by many people), with 0 Finals MVP's?

Probably because of the rest of his resume.

Which is largely based on what, exactly?

MVP's? Being the captain of 11 championship teams?