Why I don’t have Curry too high in my list

[PhutureDynasty]

I'm sure you've answered this or made a top 10 list recently but do you have Steph in the top 10?

Someone asked me recently, and I said the below. I think a chunk/tier approach is probably more reasonable for off-the-cuff type lists. I chunk Curry with Magic/Bird at the moment. Curry does bump out Wilt though, and I really would rather have Curry to start a team than Wilt.

My list for TDK places Jordan approximately 9th to 11th, depending on certain criteria.

But when he's not here:

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Russell

4. Kareem

5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Hakeem

8. Magic
9. Bird
10. Curry

11. Wilt

12. KG
13. Kobe
14. Oscar
15. Durant

That's my approximate list at the moment, with each chunk being a tier of players that are essentially equivalent in my mind, depending on what people value in establishing career value (i.e.--one could put Jordan ahead of Lebron or Curry ahead of Bird/Magic with no complaints from me).

It might be worth tweaking, but that's approximately where I am circa 2024. If Joker and Giannis had come into the NBA hot out of the gate, they would probably be on this list. They just don't enough years of elite ball (yet)

*like*

Thanks for the post.

[Odogg]

I'm sure you've answered this or made a top 10 list recently but do you have Steph in the top 10?

Someone asked me recently, and I said the below. I think a chunk/tier approach is probably more reasonable for off-the-cuff type lists. I chunk Curry with Magic/Bird at the moment. Curry does bump out Wilt though, and I really would rather have Curry to start a team than Wilt.

My list for TDK places Jordan approximately 9th to 11th, depending on certain criteria.

But when he's not here:

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Russell

4. Kareem

5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Hakeem

8. Magic
9. Bird
10. Curry

11. Wilt

12. KG
13. Kobe
14. Oscar
15. Durant

That's my approximate list at the moment, with each chunk being a tier of players that are essentially equivalent in my mind, depending on what people value in establishing career value (i.e.--one could put Jordan ahead of Lebron or Curry ahead of Bird/Magic with no complaints from me).

It might be worth tweaking, but that's approximately where I am circa 2024. If Joker and Giannis had come into the NBA hot out of the gate, they would probably be on this list. They just don't enough years of elite ball (yet)

Kobe should not be lower than Curry.

[Bush4Ever.]

Kobe should not be lower than Curry.

I don't know about you in particular, but usually the divergence I have with pretty much all Kobe fans (and maybe even a majority of NBA fans) about Kobe centers around peak/prime value (I'm lower than most, but I think reasonable people can differ to some degree), defensive value (the data simply doesn't support the narrative of him being an elite defensive player), and the relative value of Kobe vs. Shaq during the 2000-2002 titles.

I also see Curry as being a level higher than Kobe peak:peak and prime:prime, while also being more transportable, which matters to some degree when a chunk of Kobe's advantage over Curry in some fans eyes is some variant of "more rings".

Random Data Points +/- (82games.com, all scaled to 100 possessions)

2006 Kobe
Team is -7.5 without him, +4.8 with him (+12.3 difference)
2008 Kobe
Team is +2.1 without him, +9.2 with him (+7.1 difference)
2009 Kobe
Team is -0.6 without him, +11.3 with him (+11.9 difference)
2010 Kobe
Team is -3.6 without him, +8.8 with him (+12.4 difference)

2015 Curry
Team is -1.6 without him, +16.4 with him (+18.0 difference)
2016 Curry
Team is -4.2 without him, +18.1 with him (+22.3 difference)
2017 Curry
Team is +0.1 without him, +17.3 with him (+17.2 difference)
2018 Curry
Team is +0.9 without him, +13.5 with him (+12.6 difference)
2022 Curry
Team is +0.2 without him, +9.9 with him (+9.7 difference)

With all the caveats about +/-, the data over the years that most associated with each player run consistently in same direction, with Curry being associated with more dramatic swings AND better outcomes when on-floor, even in situations where Kobe's teammates performed better without Kobe than Steph's without Steph (2008 Kobe vs. all above years for Curry for example).

Kobe has stacked more high-level seasons than Curry, but Curry's seasons are definitely better than Kobe's (best vs. best, 2nd best vs. 2nd best, etc...), Curry has more rings as the best player of a team.

Curry has two rings than are better than any Kobe ring as well (IMO). Note that the preseason odds for the Lakers winning the title in 2009 and 2010 were +350 and +225. For the Warriors in 2015 and 2022 they were +2800 (yes, +2800) and +900. Even the 2016 Warriors had preseason odds of +480.

Curry really does make things so much easier for everyone else, to a degree I don't think the game has seen since the best versions of Shaq (not even Lebron measures up in that aspect IMO), and probably Magic/Bird before that.

[Odogg]

Kobe should not be lower than Curry.

I don't know about you in particular, but usually the divergence I have with pretty much all Kobe fans (and maybe even a majority of NBA fans) about Kobe centers around peak/prime value (I'm lower than most, but I think reasonable people can differ to some degree), defensive value (the data simply doesn't support the narrative of him being an elite defensive player), and the relative value of Kobe vs. Shaq during the 2000-2002 titles.

I also see Curry as being a level higher than Kobe peak:peak and prime:prime, while also being more transportable, which matters to some degree when a chunk of Kobe's advantage over Curry in some fans eyes is some variant of "more rings".

Random Data Points +/- (82games.com, all scaled to 100 possessions)

2006 Kobe
Team is -7.5 without him, +4.8 with him (+12.3 difference)
2008 Kobe
Team is +2.1 without him, +9.2 with him (+7.1 difference)
2009 Kobe
Team is -0.6 without him, +11.3 with him (+11.9 difference)
2010 Kobe
Team is -3.6 without him, +8.8 with him (+12.4 difference)

2015 Curry
Team is -1.6 without him, +16.4 with him (+18.0 difference)
2016 Curry
Team is -4.2 without him, +18.1 with him (+22.3 difference)
2017 Curry
Team is +0.1 without him, +17.3 with him (+17.2 difference)
2018 Curry
Team is +0.9 without him, +13.5 with him (+12.6 difference)
2022 Curry
Team is +0.2 without him, +9.9 with him (+9.7 difference)

With all the caveats about +/-, the data over the years that most associated with each player run consistently in same direction, with Curry being associated with more dramatic swings AND better outcomes when on-floor, even in situations where Kobe's teammates performed better without Kobe than Steph's without Steph (2008 Kobe vs. all above years for Curry for example).

Kobe has stacked more high-level seasons than Curry, but Curry's seasons are definitely better than Kobe's (best vs. best, 2nd best vs. 2nd best, etc...), Curry has more rings as the best player of a team.

Curry has two rings than are better than any Kobe ring as well (IMO). Note that the preseason odds for the Lakers winning the title in 2009 and 2010 were +350 and +225. For the Warriors in 2015 and 2022 they were +2800 (yes, +2800) and +900. Even the 2016 Warriors had preseason odds of +480.

Curry really does make things so much easier for everyone else, to a degree I don't think the game has seen since the best versions of Shaq (not even Lebron measures up in that aspect IMO), and probably Magic/Bird before that.

Kobe was an elite defensive player during the Shaq years, after that he picked his moments a bit more (eg 2010 playoffs). Regarding value vs Shaq, Kobe had an ability to rise up in critical moments in those western conference playoffs that enabled the team, and Shaq to reach that next level. For example, they dont survive game 7 (Blazers locked down Shaq) vs Portland without Kobe. Shaq was then able to beat up on inferior opponents in the 2020 and 2022 finals and get all the glory. In 2001 the team sucked without Kobe, then he returns and they go 23-1. Shaq was amazing in the finals no doubt.

Agree that Steph is the bit more efficient offensive player given the 3 pt shooting. Points/assists/rebounds are all comparable, even with Kobes post achilles years wrecking his averages. But Kobe’s contributions on the defensive side more than offset that, imo.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Kobe should not be lower than Curry.

I don't know about you in particular, but usually the divergence I have with pretty much all Kobe fans (and maybe even a majority of NBA fans) about Kobe centers around peak/prime value (I'm lower than most, but I think reasonable people can differ to some degree), defensive value (the data simply doesn't support the narrative of him being an elite defensive player), and the relative value of Kobe vs. Shaq during the 2000-2002 titles.

I also see Curry as being a level higher than Kobe peak:peak and prime:prime, while also being more transportable, which matters to some degree when a chunk of Kobe's advantage over Curry in some fans eyes is some variant of "more rings".

Random Data Points +/- (82games.com, all scaled to 100 possessions)

2006 Kobe
Team is -7.5 without him, +4.8 with him (+12.3 difference)
2008 Kobe
Team is +2.1 without him, +9.2 with him (+7.1 difference)
2009 Kobe
Team is -0.6 without him, +11.3 with him (+11.9 difference)
2010 Kobe
Team is -3.6 without him, +8.8 with him (+12.4 difference)

2015 Curry
Team is -1.6 without him, +16.4 with him (+18.0 difference)
2016 Curry
Team is -4.2 without him, +18.1 with him (+22.3 difference)
2017 Curry
Team is +0.1 without him, +17.3 with him (+17.2 difference)
2018 Curry
Team is +0.9 without him, +13.5 with him (+12.6 difference)
2022 Curry
Team is +0.2 without him, +9.9 with him (+9.7 difference)

With all the caveats about +/-, the data over the years that most associated with each player run consistently in same direction, with Curry being associated with more dramatic swings AND better outcomes when on-floor, even in situations where Kobe's teammates performed better without Kobe than Steph's without Steph (2008 Kobe vs. all above years for Curry for example).

Kobe has stacked more high-level seasons than Curry, but Curry's seasons are definitely better than Kobe's (best vs. best, 2nd best vs. 2nd best, etc...), Curry has more rings as the best player of a team.

Curry has two rings than are better than any Kobe ring as well (IMO). Note that the preseason odds for the Lakers winning the title in 2009 and 2010 were +350 and +225. For the Warriors in 2015 and 2022 they were +2800 (yes, +2800) and +900. Even the 2016 Warriors had preseason odds of +480.

Curry really does make things so much easier for everyone else, to a degree I don't think the game has seen since the best versions of Shaq (not even Lebron measures up in that aspect IMO), and probably Magic/Bird before that.

Kobe was an elite defensive player during the Shaq years, after that he picked his moments a bit more (eg 2010 playoffs). Regarding value vs Shaq, Kobe had an ability to rise up in critical moments in those western conference playoffs that enabled the team, and Shaq to reach that next level. For example, they dont survive game 7 (Blazers locked down Shaq) vs Portland without Kobe. Shaq was then able to beat up on inferior opponents in the 2020 and 2022 finals and get all the glory. In 2001 the team sucked without Kobe, then he returns and they go 23-1. Shaq was amazing in the finals no doubt.

Agree that Steph is the bit more efficient offensive player given the 3 pt shooting. Points/assists/rebounds are all comparable, even with Kobes post achilles years wrecking his averages. But Kobe’s contributions on the defensive side more than offset that, imo.

Some posters on this board (mostly the LeBron lovers like bush, grizz, rob, zombie, etc) don't factor Defense into the equation UNLESS we're talking about Bill Russell... and these same posters also rely waaaaay too mich on advanced metrics, but only when said metrics favor their oponions (which are highly flawed and yield a "guess").

That said, putting Curry over Kobe on the ATG list is a joke, let's just call it for what it is...

[thedangerouskitchen]

Anytime you feel man enough, go ahead and list the reasons why you have LeFraud over MJ so I can obliterate your argument into a million teenie-weenie pieces.

I've done this a hundred times. If you want to have meaningful discussions on this, stop trolling, stop being an idiot, learn a thing or two about the game and discuss the issue in good faith.

You don't have to be right or correct, you just have to do it in good faith.

Not with me you haven't, and certainly not in a head-head / point-counterpoint manner... and sorry, but calling James the GOAT (over MJ) has nothing to do with 'good faith'. It's just not a accurate opinion based every piece of criteria available EXCEPT longevity, and that edge doesn't put James above Jabbar, let alone MJ.

[Bush4Ever.]

Kobe was an elite defensive player during the Shaq years, after that he picked his moments a bit more (eg 2010 playoffs). Regarding value vs Shaq, Kobe had an ability to rise up in critical moments in those western conference playoffs that enabled the team, and Shaq to reach that next level. For example, they dont survive game 7 (Blazers locked down Shaq) vs Portland without Kobe. Shaq was then able to beat up on inferior opponents in the 2020 and 2022 finals and get all the glory. In 2001 the team sucked without Kobe, then he returns and they go 23-1. Shaq was amazing in the finals no doubt.

Agree that Steph is the bit more efficient offensive player given the 3 pt shooting. Points/assists/rebounds are all comparable, even with Kobes post achilles years wrecking his averages. But Kobe’s contributions on the defensive side more than offset that, imo.

Kobe had big moments, and even a big series here and there, but the Lakers were about a .500 team without Shaq during those years. It's just not comparable contribution. Saying Shaq needed Kobe to win a title doesn't imply their contributions are equal, or approximately equal. Kobe's contributions shouldn't be minimized, but he was definitely not on the standard of 2015-2022 type Curry at that point.

Regarding defense, he had blips and flashes of high-value (for a guard), but the overwhelming trend was something much closer to neutral over the career span (his career DBPM is neutral as well), and certainly after he became KOBE instead of Kobe, so to speak. I'll leave these resources if anyone wants to read:

https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/03/ ... be-bryant/
https://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?t=9024
https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-conte ... -99-13.png (01-13 only)

I think what might be another point of difference is the overvaluing of guard defense in general (by comparison to interior defensive players, where it's more relatively valuable), and how much a given individual player can swing an offense or defense (it's much easier for one guy to swing an offense than defense). You can largely see this reflected in databall-era +/- statistics for offense and defense between bigs/small and the absolute value of offense/defense amongst leaders and guys at the top. On a team-level defense is equally important as offense....but it's also much more of a collective effort than offense.

Regarding offense, it's important to note that while assist type numbers are vaguely similar for 14-22 Steph vs. 01-13 Kobe (although there is actually a difference of sorts, 9.3 vs 7.0 per 100 possessions, that's almost a 33 percent difference), the non-box score indirect impact on teammates through floor warping for Steph is pretty much the greatest ever, or at least preciously close. Kobe (nor Lebron, Wade, Harden, etc...) doesn't approach that magnitude of effect.

I don't think Kobe over Curry is egregious or anything like that though. Even a swapping of four or five slots is basically a micro-inch across all the players that have ever played the game. Guys with five rings (2 leading, 3 sidekick), or four lead player rings (two with a very rich sidekick) are on a very short list in NBA history.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

I have nothing to add to what Bush has stated, except to say I agree. I've seen very few players at their apex tilt the floor in one direction as much as Curry does. I would have him in the same tier.

[elartman1973]

Great shooter, and innovator of the game. And a very hard worker. He has more talent in his little finger than I have in my whole body.
I don’t rank him with the likes of Jordan, Kobe, Magic and Bird.
1. He can only win championships by surprises
A) In 2015 going into the season it was expected that the spurs and the cavaliers would be there. The warriors went under the radar and surprised everyone.

2. Being the overall favorite in 2016, he blew a 3-1 lead and lost the 7th game at home.

3. Won in 2022, but with a chance to repeat in 2023, dude got beaten in the 2nd round by a mediocre lakers team who barely made the playoffs due to the play in. And Curry had home court advantage in this series. Smdh. Lakers were justly swept in the conference finals.

4. 2024, 2 years removed from his championship, his team is not in serious playoff contention, neither are the lakers.

Your first problem is even having a list.
What's the point?

[Odogg]

Kobe was an elite defensive player during the Shaq years, after that he picked his moments a bit more (eg 2010 playoffs). Regarding value vs Shaq, Kobe had an ability to rise up in critical moments in those western conference playoffs that enabled the team, and Shaq to reach that next level. For example, they dont survive game 7 (Blazers locked down Shaq) vs Portland without Kobe. Shaq was then able to beat up on inferior opponents in the 2020 and 2022 finals and get all the glory. In 2001 the team sucked without Kobe, then he returns and they go 23-1. Shaq was amazing in the finals no doubt.

Agree that Steph is the bit more efficient offensive player given the 3 pt shooting. Points/assists/rebounds are all comparable, even with Kobes post achilles years wrecking his averages. But Kobe’s contributions on the defensive side more than offset that, imo.

Kobe had big moments, and even a big series here and there, but the Lakers were about a .500 team without Shaq during those years. It's just not comparable contribution. Saying Shaq needed Kobe to win a title doesn't imply their contributions are equal, or approximately equal. Kobe's contributions shouldn't be minimized, but he was definitely not on the standard of 2015-2022 type Curry at that point.

Regarding defense, he had blips and flashes of high-value (for a guard), but the overwhelming trend was something much closer to neutral over the career span (his career DBPM is neutral as well), and certainly after he became KOBE instead of Kobe, so to speak. I'll leave these resources if anyone wants to read:

https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/03/ ... be-bryant/
https://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?t=9024
https://thinkingbasketball.net/wp-conte ... -99-13.png (01-13 only)

I think what might be another point of difference is the overvaluing of guard defense in general (by comparison to interior defensive players, where it's more relatively valuable), and how much a given individual player can swing an offense or defense (it's much easier for one guy to swing an offense than defense). You can largely see this reflected in databall-era +/- statistics for offense and defense between bigs/small and the absolute value of offense/defense amongst leaders and guys at the top. On a team-level defense is equally important as offense....but it's also much more of a collective effort than offense.

Regarding offense, it's important to note that while assist type numbers are vaguely similar for 14-22 Steph vs. 01-13 Kobe (although there is actually a difference of sorts, 9.3 vs 7.0 per 100 possessions, that's almost a 33 percent difference), the non-box score indirect impact on teammates through floor warping for Steph is pretty much the greatest ever, or at least preciously close. Kobe (nor Lebron, Wade, Harden, etc...) doesn't approach that magnitude of effect.

I don't think Kobe over Curry is egregious or anything like that though. Even a swapping of four or five slots is basically a micro-inch across all the players that have ever played the game. Guys with five rings (2 leading, 3 sidekick), or four lead player rings (two with a very rich sidekick) are on a very short list in NBA history.

Splitting hairs, but his rings with KD were more like co leading. And
Kobes 2001 ring was pretty damn close.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Kobe's rings in 01 and 02 = Curry's rings in 17 and 18

Kobe: 2 Finals MVP's in 7 attempts / overall 5-2 record in the Finals
Steph: 1 Finals MVP in 6 attempts / overall 4-2 record in the Finals

Kobe = better Scorer AND (much) better Defender; more Championships, better Finals record
Steph = fancier Dribbler / better Shooter / 70+ wins but no Ring

Otherwise they're pretty even.

Kobe > Steph by all objective measures and reasoning.