2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time #28

[Deez]

Isaiah

[Havlicekstealsit]

Isiah Thomas. I think what gets missed the most on him is his career before the Pistons won titles. Pistons hadn't made the playoffs in five years before Isiah arrived. Chuck Daly comes along and gives Isiah more of a green light to run the show over Kelly "Massive Overbite" Tripucka, and Isiah's career was off to the races. And as diminutive as his stature and as good as they were, Isiah owned the Celtics.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Isiah Thomas. I think what gets missed the most on him is his career before the Pistons won titles. Pistons hadn't made the playoffs in five years before Isiah arrived. Chuck Daly comes along and gives Isiah more of a green light to run the show over Kelly "Massive Overbite" Tripucka, and Isiah's career was off to the races. And as diminutive as his stature and as good as they were, Isiah owned the Celtics.

In addition, I don't believe Thomas's statistical decline was by accident either. It goes back to a point I made about Isiah (even if I wrote it poorly) a few days ago. He was a very versatile player... who could excel with scoring or passing or as a game-managing facilitator. Usually, it was some combination of all three.

Don't all point guards do that?

Not like Thomas. Even fewer have proven to be able to do it in the playoffs.

[Bush4Ever]

During the famous years, Isiah had the same number of turnovers per game, even though his assists per game and shot attempts were both way down (assists more so). It's also worth pointing out that his usage percentage was virtually unchanged throughout his career. I would wager (without looking at it in depth) that the statistical differences are pace-driven more than anything.

That, in combination with his sometimes spotty-shooting (although yes, he could get red-hot and get his shot off more easily than most anyone else at PG), sort of hold him back a little bit in my eyes.

I definitely think the gap between Isiah and "the others" on those title teams was less pronounced than most lead dogs vs. their teammates.

[Y2K]

What about Walt Frazier? Has any PG had as great a game 7 as he did in the 1970 Finals? Excellent two way player, but an even better defender.

[Bush4Ever]

On a first pass, I would say Frazier was definitely not as good a passer as Isiah, and probably couldn't match Isiah in terms of maximum performance with respect to scoring, although they were probably very similar in terms of average performance w/ respect to scoring.

Frazier was obviously the better defensive player, and just from a quick glance a surprisingly good rebounder as well.

As to where he fit in on his team, I don't think he was a leader in any traditional sense as I understand it, with the Knicks definitely being one of those teams that had a small cluster of guys at or near the top without clear and obvious "lead dogs", with Willis Reed being the emotional leader (i.e.- "The Captain').

I think once you get much past Magic and Oscar, you get to a real crunch in terms of ranking PGs, sort of like how we've been experiencing a crunch in these late teens-30 spots, where the differences in ranks exaggerate differences in performance.

[vcsgrizzfan]

After fighting the Isiah bandwagon for a good while now, I'm okay with him here. I'd be okay with a number of different guys here, but Isiah it is.

[AbeVigodaLive]

What about Walt Frazier? Has any PG had as great a game 7 as he did in the 1970 Finals? Excellent two way player, but an even better defender.

As I mentioned, he's right in the mix with Thomas, Stockton and Cousy.

And in fact, I effectively argued in the past he should be ahead of all of them.

[PhutureDynasty]

I was gonna vote for Zeke at 29 but I have no problem with him at this spot.

[Y2K]

I'm comfortable with Isiah Thomas at this spot. But I still believe that Stockton deserves this spot just as much, even without the two rings.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I'm comfortable with Isiah Thomas at this spot. But I still believe that Stockton deserves this spot just as much, even without the two rings.

Largely interchangeable. Both can make a great case.

[dwcmwa]

Big E, Elvin Hayes.

He deserves this spot.


Stockton, Cousy and Isiah should get the 3 spots after this one.

[Bush4Ever]

Big E, Elvin Hayes.

He deserves this spot.


Stockton, Cousy and Isiah should get the 3 spots after this one.

On what basis?

The support for Hayes is strange to me.

[Odogg]

From 1988-94, Isiah didn't make a single all-nba team.

Ewing has 6 all-nba 2nd team selections. Isiah only has 5 CAREER all-nba selections.

Ewing has 3 2nd team all-defensive selections. Isiah has zero defensive team selections.

Centers are at a disadvantage vs guards and forwards when it comes to all-nba and all defensive team selection awards but Ewing still has the advantage.

Elvin Hayes, who played both PF and center, had 3 all nba 1st teams, 3 2nd teams, 2 all defensive 2nd teams.

[Odogg]

During the famous years, Isiah had the same number of turnovers per game, even though his assists per game and shot attempts were both way down (assists more so). It's also worth pointing out that his usage percentage was virtually unchanged throughout his career. I would wager (without looking at it in depth) that the statistical differences are pace-driven more than anything.

That, in combination with his sometimes spotty-shooting (although yes, he could get red-hot and get his shot off more easily than most anyone else at PG), sort of hold him back a little bit in my eyes.

I definitely think the gap between Isiah and "the others" on those title teams was less pronounced than most lead dogs vs. their teammates.

You could even argue that Dumars became more valuable as time went on.

[Odogg]

Big E, Elvin Hayes.

He deserves this spot.


Stockton, Cousy and Isiah should get the 3 spots after this one.

On what basis?

The support for Hayes is strange to me.

I still do wonder at times whether Abe and Bush are truly the same poster.

[Bush4Ever]

I still do wonder at times whether Abe and Bush are truly the same poster.

No I'm not.

I just don't understand picking Hayes in this spot, let alone saying he is a clear/obvious type-choice.

It seems very, very outstretched to me.

[Odogg]

I never said he was the clear, obvious choice

[Bush4Ever]

I never said he was the clear, obvious choice

I meant that in response to Dwca's comment. It didn't seem like there was any debate in his mind from how I read his comment.

[Kennethgriffin]

only problem is duncan over kobe

other than that its an ok list