Assuming they win the title, how high are the 2024 Celtics all-time?

[thedangerouskitchen]

You're trying too hard, bush... and quite frankly, you've become stale and boring. Try being a little less obvious AND (most important) less foolish in your trolling, will ya.

[Deez]

Literally nothing I posted in that other post relates to analytics, and literally all of them relate to competition within-era (that would also have these magical "advantages" you claim).

64 Wins
4th best net rating in history, compiled in the BEST era of basketball ever
Equal record with MORE +/- differential against the so-called "superior" West

16-3 playoff record, with the Finals loss being INTENTIONAL to help the NBA with ratings
(so the real record is 16-2, actually)

Best starter +/- in league
Best bench +/- in league (at the same time, lol)
Best offense in league
3rd best defense in league

None of that is ooky-spooky analytics. It's all perfectly measurable, within-year, within-era accomplishment relative to peers.

72 wins and a title in the BEST era actually trumps this years Celtics. Thanks anyway.

BEST era? You seriously need a reality check Deez. It was a notoriously weak era.

Walking down the lane and breathing on players in todays game sure is tough

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

72 wins and a title in the BEST era actually trumps this years Celtics. Thanks anyway.

BEST era? You seriously need a reality check Deez. It was a notoriously weak era.

Walking down the lane and breathing on players in todays game sure is tough

When did you last watch an NBA basketball game? Seriously? That comment is beyond uninformed and stupid.

[Deez]

BEST era? You seriously need a reality check Deez. It was a notoriously weak era.

Walking down the lane and breathing on players in todays game sure is tough

When did you last watch an NBA basketball game? Seriously? That comment is beyond uninformed and stupid.

Truth hurts huh? I watched games this year. No physicality at all, the amount they get away with on traveling and so forth is the worry I’ve ever seen. Sure they are skilled and it’s evolved into outside shooting but there is zero post game presence by bigs, and it’s hard watching this 3-4 step crap. The stuff they do today would be whistled a lot back in the day.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Walking down the lane and breathing on players in todays game sure is tough

When did you last watch an NBA basketball game? Seriously? That comment is beyond uninformed and stupid.

Truth hurts huh? I watched games this year. No physicality at all, the amount they get away with on traveling and so forth is the worry I’ve ever seen. Sure they are skilled and it’s evolved into outside shooting but there is zero post game presence by bigs, and it’s hard watching this 3-4 step crap. The stuff they do today would be whistled a lot back in the day.

No Deez, the truth doesn't hurt. It will set you free. People have bitched about traveling since I started watching in 1970. People bitched MJ did it all the time. It was sour grapes then, and it's sour grapes now. It's a "go to" criticism.

I was talking about your free ride down the lane
and no breathing comment. It's nonsense. It's not 2006. There are fewer fouls called now than at any point pre 2000. That is a cold hard fact. Not opinion, not conjecture. A fact. Just watch the games.

Jokic is as skilled in the post as any big you've ever seen play. He also has skills no other big you've ever seen play has.

Post play in general is used less because it should be used less. The ability to shoot the three and spread the floor has reduced the relevance of post play. It's still a great skill, but far less important than it used to be. And it will forever stay that way unless there are major rule changes that dramatically curtail the benefits of the 3 point shot.

[Robceltsfan]

72 wins and a title in the BEST era actually trumps this years Celtics. Thanks anyway.

BEST era? You seriously need a reality check Deez. It was a notoriously weak era.

Walking down the lane and breathing on players in todays game sure is tough

Another nostalgic, uninformed "fan" of the NBA. There's less fouls called now than at any point in NBA history.

Jordan used to get that anticipated whistle every time he went to the rim.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

BEST era? You seriously need a reality check Deez. It was a notoriously weak era.

Walking down the lane and breathing on players in todays game sure is tough

Another nostalgic, uninformed "fan" of the NBA. There's less fouls called now than at any point in NBA history.

Jordan used to get that anticipated whistle every time he went to the rim.

That isn't true either (about MJ), but your overall point is correct. People see what they want to see instead of what is actually happening. Pretending the game is remotely close to being officiated today like it was in 2006 is just plain wrong.

[Robceltsfan]

Walking down the lane and breathing on players in todays game sure is tough

Another nostalgic, uninformed "fan" of the NBA. There's less fouls called now than at any point in NBA history.

Jordan used to get that anticipated whistle every time he went to the rim.

That isn't true either (about MJ), but your overall point is correct. People see what they want to see instead of what is actually happening. Pretending the game is remotely close to being officiated today like it was in 2006 is just plain wrong.

phpBB [video]

I find it funny that on one of the calls, the announcer said "and that's a hand check foul".
The whistles were blown with far more frequency in the 90's, and the defense was, at best, marginally more physical.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Another nostalgic, uninformed "fan" of the NBA. There's less fouls called now than at any point in NBA history.

Jordan used to get that anticipated whistle every time he went to the rim.

That isn't true either (about MJ), but your overall point is correct. People see what they want to see instead of what is actually happening. Pretending the game is remotely close to being officiated today like it was in 2006 is just plain wrong.

phpBB [video]

I find it funny that on one of the calls, the announcer said "and that's a hand check foul".
The whistles were blown with far more frequency in the 90's, and the defense was, at best, marginally more physical.

The physicality is grossly exaggerated. People take isolated plays or games and try to pretend that they were all like that. It's silly. When I go back and watch "classic" NBA games, I find it hard to believe that at the time, I found the play so skilled. It just pales in comparison to today's hoops.

[thedangerouskitchen]

.

Meatball grizz, bush-league, RobTot, and the rest of the BWGC/LeSlurpers are completely delusional... there is no other way to say it. Oooooh, after they read the quotes below they'll cowardly claim they're only trolling, but we know better. They are clueless:

Rudy Gobert (aka; the best Defensive player in the NBA and 4-time DPOY): "The rules really favor Offense, in general, right now."

Celtics' Jrue Holiday (a five-time All-Defense selection): "People like to see people get 60 and 70 and do all that," Holiday said. "How are you going to do that if somebody can be physical and be handsy and be aggressive in that way? So, I personally don't think that the balance is there."

Celtics' Derrick White: "It's harder to just clog the paint, which is what you really need to do against these top players. Offenses are just so spaced and wide-open that if you give these great guys space, they're almost impossible to guard."

Denver's Aaron Gordon: "You got to just have better defenders. People are going crazy because you just don't really want to play defense."

LeFraud James: "This is what a lot of the [regular-season] games are starting to look like too," James said Feb. 18 inside Indianapolis' Gainbridge Fieldhouse after his record 20th All-Star appearance. "We wanted to get more pace into the games. We wanted to get more shots. We wanted the game to be more free flowing. ... It's a deeper dive into a conversation of how we can shore up this game."

NBA Commissioner Adam Silver: “It (the physical Defense of the 90's) de-emphasized the particular skill a player had and maybe weighed too heavily on physicality,” Silver said, “where a big, strong player could come in and prevent an incredibly skilled player from doing those kinds of things.

“I think of — not that he’s a small guy — but a smaller player like Steph Curry, (what he) can do on the floor. I think that when you think of some of his ability to shoot, his ability to move through the paint, that if guys could just bang him and knock him to the ground — as that was once the case in the league — I don’t think that would be a better brand of basketball.”

For years now, there’s been a growing sentiment that the NBA has gone “soft” due to rule changes lowering the threshold for personal fouls. That lower threshold has also paved the way for “flopping.”

Joe Dumars, VP of Basketball Operations told ESPN the league's competition committee has officially begun reviewing whether the game has tilted too far toward offense and whether changes need to be implemented to achieve better balance. "It is a topic that we're monitoring," Dumars told ESPN earlier this month. "We're diving in right now to make sure that we're on the right side of this."

Chauncey Billups (Portland Head Coach) pointed to the 2005 NBA Finals -- one of the lowest-rated viewerships in league history -- as a turning point. Throughout that seven-game series between Billups' Pistons and the victorious San Antonio Spurs, the average winning point total was just 93.0. "That changed the game," Billups said. "Because if you get to the pinnacle like that, and the ratings are that poor, something has to change. Well that's what we've seen. And that's why offense is so elevated. And that's what sells tickets."


CONCLUSION: Meatball grizz, bush-league, and the rest of the BWGC: You guys can STFU now because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, today's players can dribble fancy and shoot MORE long-range shots than ever before (although they still MISS them 65% of the time on average), but it's an absolute, irrefutable fact that Defense today is weaker/softer than ever (certainly much weaker/softer than it was in the 90's) AND that the rules today heavily favor/cater to the Offense.

...and that's not TDK talking, that's the REAL experts talking (ie; those who know more about the game today than all you arm-chair fans will ever know).

#endthread

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

.

Meatball grizz, bush-league, RobTot, and the rest of the BWGC/LeSlurpers are completely delusional... there is no other way to say it. Oooooh, after they read the quotes below they'll cowardly claim they're only trolling, but we know better. They are clueless:

Rudy Gobert (aka; the best Defensive player in the NBA and 4-time DPOY): "The rules really favor Offense, in general, right now."

Celtics' Jrue Holiday (a five-time All-Defense selection): "People like to see people get 60 and 70 and do all that," Holiday said. "How are you going to do that if somebody can be physical and be handsy and be aggressive in that way? So, I personally don't think that the balance is there."

Celtics' Derrick White: "It's harder to just clog the paint, which is what you really need to do against these top players. Offenses are just so spaced and wide-open that if you give these great guys space, they're almost impossible to guard."

Denver's Aaron Gordon: "You got to just have better defenders. People are going crazy because you just don't really want to play defense."

LeFraud James: "This is what a lot of the [regular-season] games are starting to look like too," James said Feb. 18 inside Indianapolis' Gainbridge Fieldhouse after his record 20th All-Star appearance. "We wanted to get more pace into the games. We wanted to get more shots. We wanted the game to be more free flowing. ... It's a deeper dive into a conversation of how we can shore up this game."

NBA Commissioner Adam Silver: “It (the physical Defense of the 90's) de-emphasized the particular skill a player had and maybe weighed too heavily on physicality,” Silver said, “where a big, strong player could come in and prevent an incredibly skilled player from doing those kinds of things.

“I think of — not that he’s a small guy — but a smaller player like Steph Curry, (what he) can do on the floor. I think that when you think of some of his ability to shoot, his ability to move through the paint, that if guys could just bang him and knock him to the ground — as that was once the case in the league — I don’t think that would be a better brand of basketball.”

For years now, there’s been a growing sentiment that the NBA has gone “soft” due to rule changes lowering the threshold for personal fouls. That lower threshold has also paved the way for “flopping.”

Joe Dumars, VP of Basketball Operations told ESPN the league's competition committee has officially begun reviewing whether the game has tilted too far toward offense and whether changes need to be implemented to achieve better balance. "It is a topic that we're monitoring," Dumars told ESPN earlier this month. "We're diving in right now to make sure that we're on the right side of this."

Chauncey Billups (Portland Head Coach) pointed to the 2005 NBA Finals -- one of the lowest-rated viewerships in league history -- as a turning point. Throughout that seven-game series between Billups' Pistons and the victorious San Antonio Spurs, the average winning point total was just 93.0. "That changed the game," Billups said. "Because if you get to the pinnacle like that, and the ratings are that poor, something has to change. Well that's what we've seen. And that's why offense is so elevated. And that's what sells tickets."


CONCLUSION: Meatball grizz, bush-league, and the rest of the BWGC: You guys can STFU now because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, today's players can dribble fancy and shoot MORE long-range shots than ever before (although they still MISS them 65% of the time on average), but it's an absolute, irrefutable fact that Defense today is weaker/softer than ever (certainly much weaker/softer than it was in the 90's) AND that the rules today heavily favor/cater to the Offense.

...and that's not TDK talking, that's the REAL experts talking (ie; those who know more about the game today than all you arm-chair fans will ever know).

#endthread

No, dude. It's not a fact. It's drivel. If you actually watched games, you might be able to figure it out.

Gobert has only ever played under 1 set of rules. And they have allowed him to stay in the league. Because of the way he makes a living, of course he's going to wish he could do anything.

Why don't you tell me what the rule changes were TDK? The last meaningful rule changes were the "so called" handcheck rules, the elimination of illegal defense and bringing in zone defenses. What other rule changes are we talking about here? And if that's what you are talking about, we aren't in 2006. Those rules aren't being enforced anywhere near how they were back then. Just watch a freaking game.

Jrue also makes his living playing VERY AGGRESSIVE defense. Of course he'd like to be allowed to do whatever the hell he wants. This isn't brain surgery.

White is correct. His point is bang on. Guarding out to 25-28 feet is infinitely harder than guarding to 20 feet. It isn't a linear relationship. So that means there is better spacing and forces defenses to rotate much more so than in any time in NBA history. It's not even close. And yet, they still manage to get a ton of blocks at the rim because players today are generally way more athletic and mobile. There isn't a hope a lot of the sloths from the 80s and 90s could rotate on screen and rolls. They would be unable to play in today's NBA.

Gordon is also correct. Of course some guys don't really want to play defense. That has been the case forever and freaking ever. But there are probably fewer of those guys in the league now than at any point in history, because unless you are a phenomenal offensive talent, you usually get your ass pinned to the bench if you have that attitude. There aren't a ton of Eddie Johnson's and Cedric Ceballos types in the league anymore who don't even pretend to try and defend.

LeBron is also right. There are a number of regular season games that players are less engaged and it is more of a track meet. But that has been true throughout NBA history. People have never played all regular season games like they are must win playoff games. That is just a fact.

As far as Silver goes, that's mostly hogwash. Curry is no different from a Reggie Miller who was a beanpole and still managed to get his shots off. It also goes back to the 3 point shot and extra spacing. By definition it allows more access to the paint, but guys who try to push it too much get their shots blocked as much as ever. Defenses have learned to adjust.

As has been pointed out ad nauseum, this added that the threshold has been lowered for personal fouls is just baloney. There are fewer FTAs now than at any other point in NBA history. That comment made sense in 2006, but it sure doesn't anymore.

As far as Dumars goes, I kind of agree. I think they likely need to extend the 3 point line a bit and probably eliminate the corner 3 entirely, to bring a bit more balance to the game. It's not rules changes per se, but changing the dimensions of the court with respect to shooting 3s. I don't see what could be done "rules" wise that would make any sense. They are being enforced very well in general in the current NBA.

And Billups is definitely right. That made the league enforce the handcheck rules in 2006 and it was definitely out of balance. In those finals, there were more phantom calls on Wade than you could shake a stick at.

But pretending that is how the game is officiated now is pure baloney.

The players and the offenses are miles better overall, and coaching strategies (emphasis on 3s and trying to get as many in close shots as possible and reduce low value mid to long 2s) is what really has contributed to much higher scoring. Inadvertently, reducing the 24 second clock after misses to 14 seconds has also had an impact by increasing pace.

Having said all that, the game and its players are way better than anything we have seen in the past. Offenses are better and defenses are better.

[lettherebehouse]

[thedangerouskitchen]

"I know more about today's NBA than the current NBA Commissioner, the curent NBA VP of Ops, and numerous (current) NBA players and coaches because I watch the games on TV."

Signed,
Grizz

Spoiler:

PS: No you don't, grizz. You really should learn to accept defeat humbly.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

"I know more about today's NBA than the current NBA Commissioner, the curent NBA VP of Ops, and numerous (current) NBA players and coaches because I watch the games on TV."

Signed,
Grizz

Spoiler:

PS: No you don't, grizz. You really should learn to accept defeat humbly.

Why don't you actually address what I wrote instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

[thedangerouskitchen]

"I know more about today's NBA than the current NBA Commissioner, the curent NBA VP of Ops, and numerous (current) NBA players and coaches because I watch the games on TV."

Signed,
Grizz

Spoiler:

PS: No you don't, grizz. You really should learn to accept defeat humbly.

Why don't you actually address what I wrote instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Because you do not know more about the NBA than the players, coaches and executives of the league itself, that's why.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

"I know more about today's NBA than the current NBA Commissioner, the curent NBA VP of Ops, and numerous (current) NBA players and coaches because I watch the games on TV."

Signed,
Grizz

Spoiler:

PS: No you don't, grizz. You really should learn to accept defeat humbly.

Why don't you actually address what I wrote instead of repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Because you do not know more about the NBA than the players, coaches and executives of the league itself, that's why.

I addressed every single person you quoted. Every single one. You just don't like my answers and they don't fit your agenda, so you ignore them. I actually even agreed with at least half of them. I have the ability to actually analyze and be objective. You have no such ability. You have blinders on for everything that doesn't fit your narrative. And, deep down, where you won't allow yourself to go, you know I'm right.

[Bush4Ever.]

I think this guy stole my AngerGeneral posts to make this article, but still...



https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/ ... ylen-brown

[Deez]

Let’s be honest here, is this team even top 10? I’d question that.

[Deez]

.

Meatball grizz, bush-league, RobTot, and the rest of the BWGC/LeSlurpers are completely delusional... there is no other way to say it. Oooooh, after they read the quotes below they'll cowardly claim they're only trolling, but we know better. They are clueless:

Rudy Gobert (aka; the best Defensive player in the NBA and 4-time DPOY): "The rules really favor Offense, in general, right now."

Celtics' Jrue Holiday (a five-time All-Defense selection): "People like to see people get 60 and 70 and do all that," Holiday said. "How are you going to do that if somebody can be physical and be handsy and be aggressive in that way? So, I personally don't think that the balance is there."

Celtics' Derrick White: "It's harder to just clog the paint, which is what you really need to do against these top players. Offenses are just so spaced and wide-open that if you give these great guys space, they're almost impossible to guard."

Denver's Aaron Gordon: "You got to just have better defenders. People are going crazy because you just don't really want to play defense."

LeFraud James: "This is what a lot of the [regular-season] games are starting to look like too," James said Feb. 18 inside Indianapolis' Gainbridge Fieldhouse after his record 20th All-Star appearance. "We wanted to get more pace into the games. We wanted to get more shots. We wanted the game to be more free flowing. ... It's a deeper dive into a conversation of how we can shore up this game."

NBA Commissioner Adam Silver: “It (the physical Defense of the 90's) de-emphasized the particular skill a player had and maybe weighed too heavily on physicality,” Silver said, “where a big, strong player could come in and prevent an incredibly skilled player from doing those kinds of things.

“I think of — not that he’s a small guy — but a smaller player like Steph Curry, (what he) can do on the floor. I think that when you think of some of his ability to shoot, his ability to move through the paint, that if guys could just bang him and knock him to the ground — as that was once the case in the league — I don’t think that would be a better brand of basketball.”

For years now, there’s been a growing sentiment that the NBA has gone “soft” due to rule changes lowering the threshold for personal fouls. That lower threshold has also paved the way for “flopping.”

Joe Dumars, VP of Basketball Operations told ESPN the league's competition committee has officially begun reviewing whether the game has tilted too far toward offense and whether changes need to be implemented to achieve better balance. "It is a topic that we're monitoring," Dumars told ESPN earlier this month. "We're diving in right now to make sure that we're on the right side of this."

Chauncey Billups (Portland Head Coach) pointed to the 2005 NBA Finals -- one of the lowest-rated viewerships in league history -- as a turning point. Throughout that seven-game series between Billups' Pistons and the victorious San Antonio Spurs, the average winning point total was just 93.0. "That changed the game," Billups said. "Because if you get to the pinnacle like that, and the ratings are that poor, something has to change. Well that's what we've seen. And that's why offense is so elevated. And that's what sells tickets."


CONCLUSION: Meatball grizz, bush-league, and the rest of the BWGC: You guys can STFU now because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, today's players can dribble fancy and shoot MORE long-range shots than ever before (although they still MISS them 65% of the time on average), but it's an absolute, irrefutable fact that Defense today is weaker/softer than ever (certainly much weaker/softer than it was in the 90's) AND that the rules today heavily favor/cater to the Offense.

...and that's not TDK talking, that's the REAL experts talking (ie; those who know more about the game today than all you arm-chair fans will ever know).

#endthread

No, dude. It's not a fact. It's drivel. If you actually watched games, you might be able to figure it out.

Gobert has only ever played under 1 set of rules. And they have allowed him to stay in the league. Because of the way he makes a living, of course he's going to wish he could do anything.

Why don't you tell me what the rule changes were TDK? The last meaningful rule changes were the "so called" handcheck rules, the elimination of illegal defense and bringing in zone defenses. What other rule changes are we talking about here? And if that's what you are talking about, we aren't in 2006. Those rules aren't being enforced anywhere near how they were back then. Just watch a freaking game.

Jrue also makes his living playing VERY AGGRESSIVE defense. Of course he'd like to be allowed to do whatever the hell he wants. This isn't brain surgery.

White is correct. His point is bang on. Guarding out to 25-28 feet is infinitely harder than guarding to 20 feet. It isn't a linear relationship. So that means there is better spacing and forces defenses to rotate much more so than in any time in NBA history. It's not even close. And yet, they still manage to get a ton of blocks at the rim because players today are generally way more athletic and mobile. There isn't a hope a lot of the sloths from the 80s and 90s could rotate on screen and rolls. They would be unable to play in today's NBA.

Gordon is also correct. Of course some guys don't really want to play defense. That has been the case forever and freaking ever. But there are probably fewer of those guys in the league now than at any point in history, because unless you are a phenomenal offensive talent, you usually get your ass pinned to the bench if you have that attitude. There aren't a ton of Eddie Johnson's and Cedric Ceballos types in the league anymore who don't even pretend to try and defend.

LeBron is also right. There are a number of regular season games that players are less engaged and it is more of a track meet. But that has been true throughout NBA history. People have never played all regular season games like they are must win playoff games. That is just a fact.

As far as Silver goes, that's mostly hogwash. Curry is no different from a Reggie Miller who was a beanpole and still managed to get his shots off. It also goes back to the 3 point shot and extra spacing. By definition it allows more access to the paint, but guys who try to push it too much get their shots blocked as much as ever. Defenses have learned to adjust.

As has been pointed out ad nauseum, this added that the threshold has been lowered for personal fouls is just baloney. There are fewer FTAs now than at any other point in NBA history. That comment made sense in 2006, but it sure doesn't anymore.

As far as Dumars goes, I kind of agree. I think they likely need to extend the 3 point line a bit and probably eliminate the corner 3 entirely, to bring a bit more balance to the game. It's not rules changes per se, but changing the dimensions of the court with respect to shooting 3s. I don't see what could be done "rules" wise that would make any sense. They are being enforced very well in general in the current NBA.

And Billups is definitely right. That made the league enforce the handcheck rules in 2006 and it was definitely out of balance. In those finals, there were more phantom calls on Wade than you could shake a stick at.

But pretending that is how the game is officiated now is pure baloney.

The players and the offenses are miles better overall, and coaching strategies (emphasis on 3s and trying to get as many in close shots as possible and reduce low value mid to long 2s) is what really has contributed to much higher scoring. Inadvertently, reducing the 24 second clock after misses to 14 seconds has also had an impact by increasing pace.

Having said all that, the game and its players are way better than anything we have seen in the past. Offenses are better and defenses are better.

Grizz and bush apparently should be experts over the actual experts and analysts. Always amazes me how we get complete fucking idiots talking as if they know Jack shit compared to people who live the sport on a daily fucking basis. Why don’t you guys just take a seat sometimes and stfu

[wailuaFC]

.

Meatball grizz, bush-league, RobTot, and the rest of the BWGC/LeSlurpers are completely delusional... there is no other way to say it. Oooooh, after they read the quotes below they'll cowardly claim they're only trolling, but we know better. They are clueless:

Rudy Gobert (aka; the best Defensive player in the NBA and 4-time DPOY): "The rules really favor Offense, in general, right now."

Celtics' Jrue Holiday (a five-time All-Defense selection): "People like to see people get 60 and 70 and do all that," Holiday said. "How are you going to do that if somebody can be physical and be handsy and be aggressive in that way? So, I personally don't think that the balance is there."

Celtics' Derrick White: "It's harder to just clog the paint, which is what you really need to do against these top players. Offenses are just so spaced and wide-open that if you give these great guys space, they're almost impossible to guard."

Denver's Aaron Gordon: "You got to just have better defenders. People are going crazy because you just don't really want to play defense."

LeFraud James: "This is what a lot of the [regular-season] games are starting to look like too," James said Feb. 18 inside Indianapolis' Gainbridge Fieldhouse after his record 20th All-Star appearance. "We wanted to get more pace into the games. We wanted to get more shots. We wanted the game to be more free flowing. ... It's a deeper dive into a conversation of how we can shore up this game."

NBA Commissioner Adam Silver: “It (the physical Defense of the 90's) de-emphasized the particular skill a player had and maybe weighed too heavily on physicality,” Silver said, “where a big, strong player could come in and prevent an incredibly skilled player from doing those kinds of things.

“I think of — not that he’s a small guy — but a smaller player like Steph Curry, (what he) can do on the floor. I think that when you think of some of his ability to shoot, his ability to move through the paint, that if guys could just bang him and knock him to the ground — as that was once the case in the league — I don’t think that would be a better brand of basketball.”

For years now, there’s been a growing sentiment that the NBA has gone “soft” due to rule changes lowering the threshold for personal fouls. That lower threshold has also paved the way for “flopping.”

Joe Dumars, VP of Basketball Operations told ESPN the league's competition committee has officially begun reviewing whether the game has tilted too far toward offense and whether changes need to be implemented to achieve better balance. "It is a topic that we're monitoring," Dumars told ESPN earlier this month. "We're diving in right now to make sure that we're on the right side of this."

Chauncey Billups (Portland Head Coach) pointed to the 2005 NBA Finals -- one of the lowest-rated viewerships in league history -- as a turning point. Throughout that seven-game series between Billups' Pistons and the victorious San Antonio Spurs, the average winning point total was just 93.0. "That changed the game," Billups said. "Because if you get to the pinnacle like that, and the ratings are that poor, something has to change. Well that's what we've seen. And that's why offense is so elevated. And that's what sells tickets."


CONCLUSION: Meatball grizz, bush-league, and the rest of the BWGC: You guys can STFU now because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, today's players can dribble fancy and shoot MORE long-range shots than ever before (although they still MISS them 65% of the time on average), but it's an absolute, irrefutable fact that Defense today is weaker/softer than ever (certainly much weaker/softer than it was in the 90's) AND that the rules today heavily favor/cater to the Offense.

...and that's not TDK talking, that's the REAL experts talking (ie; those who know more about the game today than all you arm-chair fans will ever know).

#endthread

No, dude. It's not a fact. It's drivel. If you actually watched games, you might be able to figure it out.

Gobert has only ever played under 1 set of rules. And they have allowed him to stay in the league. Because of the way he makes a living, of course he's going to wish he could do anything.

Why don't you tell me what the rule changes were TDK? The last meaningful rule changes were the "so called" handcheck rules, the elimination of illegal defense and bringing in zone defenses. What other rule changes are we talking about here? And if that's what you are talking about, we aren't in 2006. Those rules aren't being enforced anywhere near how they were back then. Just watch a freaking game.

Jrue also makes his living playing VERY AGGRESSIVE defense. Of course he'd like to be allowed to do whatever the hell he wants. This isn't brain surgery.

White is correct. His point is bang on. Guarding out to 25-28 feet is infinitely harder than guarding to 20 feet. It isn't a linear relationship. So that means there is better spacing and forces defenses to rotate much more so than in any time in NBA history. It's not even close. And yet, they still manage to get a ton of blocks at the rim because players today are generally way more athletic and mobile. There isn't a hope a lot of the sloths from the 80s and 90s could rotate on screen and rolls. They would be unable to play in today's NBA.

Gordon is also correct. Of course some guys don't really want to play defense. That has been the case forever and freaking ever. But there are probably fewer of those guys in the league now than at any point in history, because unless you are a phenomenal offensive talent, you usually get your ass pinned to the bench if you have that attitude. There aren't a ton of Eddie Johnson's and Cedric Ceballos types in the league anymore who don't even pretend to try and defend.

LeBron is also right. There are a number of regular season games that players are less engaged and it is more of a track meet. But that has been true throughout NBA history. People have never played all regular season games like they are must win playoff games. That is just a fact.

As far as Silver goes, that's mostly hogwash. Curry is no different from a Reggie Miller who was a beanpole and still managed to get his shots off. It also goes back to the 3 point shot and extra spacing. By definition it allows more access to the paint, but guys who try to push it too much get their shots blocked as much as ever. Defenses have learned to adjust.

As has been pointed out ad nauseum, this added that the threshold has been lowered for personal fouls is just baloney. There are fewer FTAs now than at any other point in NBA history. That comment made sense in 2006, but it sure doesn't anymore.

As far as Dumars goes, I kind of agree. I think they likely need to extend the 3 point line a bit and probably eliminate the corner 3 entirely, to bring a bit more balance to the game. It's not rules changes per se, but changing the dimensions of the court with respect to shooting 3s. I don't see what could be done "rules" wise that would make any sense. They are being enforced very well in general in the current NBA.

And Billups is definitely right. That made the league enforce the handcheck rules in 2006 and it was definitely out of balance. In those finals, there were more phantom calls on Wade than you could shake a stick at.

But pretending that is how the game is officiated now is pure baloney.

The players and the offenses are miles better overall, and coaching strategies (emphasis on 3s and trying to get as many in close shots as possible and reduce low value mid to long 2s) is what really has contributed to much higher scoring. Inadvertently, reducing the 24 second clock after misses to 14 seconds has also had an impact by increasing pace.

Having said all that, the game and its players are way better than anything we have seen in the past. Offenses are better and defenses are better.

Grizz and bush apparently should be experts over the actual experts and analysts. Always amazes me how we get complete fucking idiots talking as if they know Jack shit compared to people who live the sport on a daily fucking basis. Why don’t you guys just take a seat sometimes and stfu

A lot of nba players have lebron/kobe as their goat or in their top 2, if I presented those quotes would you believe them? Those are people who live the sport, so the same applies, right?