2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time: #2 selection

[Deez]

Is it me or do people tend to over rated Russell based on only having defense? Didn't Kareem play both fairly well? Not sure i can see Russell ahead of kareem but that's just my opinion i guess.

[Y2K]

Is it me or do people tend to over rated Russell based on only having defense? Didn't Kareem play both fairly well? Not sure i can see Russell ahead of kareem but that's just my opinion i guess.

Kareem's best statistical years were in the 70s, before the merger. That doesn't help his case.

[Deez]

Is it me or do people tend to over rated Russell based on only having defense? Didn't Kareem play both fairly well? Not sure i can see Russell ahead of kareem but that's just my opinion i guess.

Kareem's best statistical years were in the 70s, before the merger. That doesn't help his case.

Well tell bidness that, he thinks kareem is lock for goat.

[Bush4Ever]

Is it me or do people tend to over rated Russell based on only having defense? Didn't Kareem play both fairly well? Not sure i can see Russell ahead of kareem but that's just my opinion i guess.

He certainly did. The main blotches on Kareem's record was his relative lack of winning as a lead dog in between the Bucks and Magic years. At least, I think so.

Kareem was an absolute beast though in his prime.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Is it me or do people tend to over rated Russell based on only having defense? Didn't Kareem play both fairly well? Not sure i can see Russell ahead of kareem but that's just my opinion i guess.

While Russell is the greatest defensive player to have played the game, and by a considerable margin, suggesting he only played defense and didn't play any offense is not accurate.

Russell finished top 7 in assists in the NBA on four different occasions, and that's despite playing with Bob Cousy for the first half of his career and Cousy was a fairly ball dominant point guard. How many other centers in history can make the same claim? I believe the only other is Chamberlain, and he only did it after he was stung by criticism that he should be "more like Russell". And while people scoff at his shooting percentage, you have to keep things relative to era. He was top 5 in field goal percentage 4 times in his career.

Nobody argues that he was a prolific scorer, but he did average over 20 points a game in two entire playoff runs that culminated in winning rings. He also had a flair for the moment. One of his most famous games is game 7 of the 1962 finals, which was the first of the great Celtics/Lakers finals where he went for 30 points to go with 40 boards in a three point win. It was enough to overcome 41 points by Elgin Baylor and 35 by Jerry West and one of the big reasons Baylor retired ringless.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Is it me or do people tend to over rated Russell based on only having defense? Didn't Kareem play both fairly well? Not sure i can see Russell ahead of kareem but that's just my opinion i guess.

Careful... with that opinion you might be accused of being transparent. But FTR I agree with you 100%, and that's why I can never consider Russell the GOAT.

[Kevin]

Russell was arguably greater on defense than any player has been on offense.

[elmouse03]

Russell was arguably greater on defense than any player has been on offense.

Very possible but Wilt did average like 28 and 28 on him.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Russell was arguably greater on defense than any player has been on offense.

Very possible but Wilt did average like 28 and 28 on him.

And Russell went 7-1 in playoff series against him. That includes the 1969 finals where LA were huge favorites. Wilt had one of his epic choke jobs that series. He went 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss and then in game 7, went 4-13 from the line in a two point loss, and actually was benched for a good chunk of the 4th quarter. Overall, Wilt averaged under 12 points a game and shot 37% from the free throw line that series. That was Russell's final season on his last legs and he still won, ruining an incredible finals by Jerry West who averaged 38 points a game those finals, and a big reason why Elgin Baylor retired ringless. Russell only averaged 9 a game those finals, but he did average a little over 21 boards a game and led the Celts with over 5 assists a game. Unfortunately. the statistical impact does not do him justice.

[Deez]

This must be about wrapped up for the #2 now?

[Y2K]

Russell was arguably greater on defense than any player has been on offense.

Very possible but Wilt did average like 28 and 28 on him.

And Russell went 7-1 in playoff series against him. That includes the 1969 finals where LA were huge favorites. Wilt had one of his epic choke jobs that series. He went 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss and then in game 7, went 4-13 from the line in a two point loss, and actually was benched for a good chunk of the 4th quarter. Overall, Wilt averaged under 12 points a game and shot 37% from the free throw line that series. That was Russell's final season on his last legs and he still won, ruining an incredible finals by Jerry West who averaged 38 points a game those finals, and a big reason why Elgin Baylor retired ringless. Russell only averaged 9 a game those finals, but he did average a little over 21 boards a game and led the Celts with over 5 assists a game. Unfortunately. the statistical impact does not do him justice.

I will say that in Wilt's defense, he was hobbled with the bad knee, which he banged up in that game 7, leading to his 4th quarter benching. The benching was also a personal decision, which was total BS.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Very possible but Wilt did average like 28 and 28 on him.

And Russell went 7-1 in playoff series against him. That includes the 1969 finals where LA were huge favorites. Wilt had one of his epic choke jobs that series. He went 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss and then in game 7, went 4-13 from the line in a two point loss, and actually was benched for a good chunk of the 4th quarter. Overall, Wilt averaged under 12 points a game and shot 37% from the free throw line that series. That was Russell's final season on his last legs and he still won, ruining an incredible finals by Jerry West who averaged 38 points a game those finals, and a big reason why Elgin Baylor retired ringless. Russell only averaged 9 a game those finals, but he did average a little over 21 boards a game and led the Celts with over 5 assists a game. Unfortunately. the statistical impact does not do him justice.

I will say that in Wilt's defense, he was hobbled with the bad knee, which he banged up in that game 7, leading to his 4th quarter benching. The benching was also a personal decision, which was total BS.

I agree with part of that. The banged knee happened late in the game (I think somewhere early in the fourth quarter) and Breda Kolff used it an as excuse to sit Wilt through at least part of the fourth. They did make a run with Wilt on the bench though, and it doesn't change the 4-13 from the line though and it sure doesn't change the 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss. Can you imagine in today's day and age how Wilt would be torn a new one over that????

Edit: I just checked and Wilt was injured with 5 minutes to go and the Lakers were down 7. They cut the lead to 1 with Wilt on the bench when he asked to go back in with just under 2 minutes to go but Breda Kolff stayed with Counts.

[vcsgrizzfan]

This must be about wrapped up for the #2 now?

I would think so.

Y2ktors can start a new thread for number 3 if he agrees.

[Y2K]

And Russell went 7-1 in playoff series against him. That includes the 1969 finals where LA were huge favorites. Wilt had one of his epic choke jobs that series. He went 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss and then in game 7, went 4-13 from the line in a two point loss, and actually was benched for a good chunk of the 4th quarter. Overall, Wilt averaged under 12 points a game and shot 37% from the free throw line that series. That was Russell's final season on his last legs and he still won, ruining an incredible finals by Jerry West who averaged 38 points a game those finals, and a big reason why Elgin Baylor retired ringless. Russell only averaged 9 a game those finals, but he did average a little over 21 boards a game and led the Celts with over 5 assists a game. Unfortunately. the statistical impact does not do him justice.

I will say that in Wilt's defense, he was hobbled with the bad knee, which he banged up in that game 7, leading to his 4th quarter benching. The benching was also a personal decision, which was total BS.

I agree with part of that. The banged knee happened late in the game (I think somewhere early in the fourth quarter) and Breda Kolff used it an as excuse to sit Wilt through at least part of the fourth. They did make a run with Wilt on the bench though, and it doesn't change the 4-13 from the line though and it sure doesn't change the 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss. Can you imagine in today's day and age how Wilt would be torn a new one over that????

Edit: I just checked and Wilt was injured with 5 minutes to go and the Lakers were down 7. They cut the lead to 1 with Wilt on the bench when he asked to go back in with just under 2 minutes to go but Breda Kolff stayed with Counts.

Jerry West had mentioned how Wilt Chamberlain was already hurting. He re-aggravated his injury in Game 7. But the horrid FT shooting is inexcusable.

On another note, I'm give it until 3 pm to see if more votes are tallied.

[elmouse03]

Very possible but Wilt did average like 28 and 28 on him.

And Russell went 7-1 in playoff series against him. That includes the 1969 finals where LA were huge favorites. Wilt had one of his epic choke jobs that series. He went 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss and then in game 7, went 4-13 from the line in a two point loss, and actually was benched for a good chunk of the 4th quarter. Overall, Wilt averaged under 12 points a game and shot 37% from the free throw line that series. That was Russell's final season on his last legs and he still won, ruining an incredible finals by Jerry West who averaged 38 points a game those finals, and a big reason why Elgin Baylor retired ringless. Russell only averaged 9 a game those finals, but he did average a little over 21 boards a game and led the Celts with over 5 assists a game. Unfortunately. the statistical impact does not do him justice.

I will say that in Wilt's defense, he was hobbled with the bad knee, which he banged up in that game 7, leading to his 4th quarter benching. The benching was also a personal decision, which was total BS.

Well also Wilt did a lot of damage to Russell from 59-66 when he was putting up 30+ppg and 20+rpg daily but Russell had the better team in those years who knew how to win. Wilt as we know changed his game in 67 to finally win the title and just continued to change his game in 68 and 69 in which he surely wasn't the scorer he used to be. Russell and the Celtics also played with a chip on their shoulders in those 2 seasons with the whole being called old and stuff which they used as motivation to win it all.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I will say that in Wilt's defense, he was hobbled with the bad knee, which he banged up in that game 7, leading to his 4th quarter benching. The benching was also a personal decision, which was total BS.

I agree with part of that. The banged knee happened late in the game (I think somewhere early in the fourth quarter) and Breda Kolff used it an as excuse to sit Wilt through at least part of the fourth. They did make a run with Wilt on the bench though, and it doesn't change the 4-13 from the line though and it sure doesn't change the 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss. Can you imagine in today's day and age how Wilt would be torn a new one over that????

Edit: I just checked and Wilt was injured with 5 minutes to go and the Lakers were down 7. They cut the lead to 1 with Wilt on the bench when he asked to go back in with just under 2 minutes to go but Breda Kolff stayed with Counts.

Jerry West had mentioned how Wilt Chamberlain was already hurting. He re-aggravated his injury in Game 7. But the horrid FT shooting is inexcusable.

On another note, I'm give it until 3 pm to see if more votes are tallied.

The funny thing is that West gives WIlt an out... even though Chamberlain ALWAYS threw West under the bus. Wilt's autobiography is one of the greatest works of fiction I've ever read.

It's roughly 300 pages of lies about his greatness while blaming everybody else for every one of his failures. For some reason... West is his primary target.

[vcsgrizzfan]

And Russell went 7-1 in playoff series against him. That includes the 1969 finals where LA were huge favorites. Wilt had one of his epic choke jobs that series. He went 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss and then in game 7, went 4-13 from the line in a two point loss, and actually was benched for a good chunk of the 4th quarter. Overall, Wilt averaged under 12 points a game and shot 37% from the free throw line that series. That was Russell's final season on his last legs and he still won, ruining an incredible finals by Jerry West who averaged 38 points a game those finals, and a big reason why Elgin Baylor retired ringless. Russell only averaged 9 a game those finals, but he did average a little over 21 boards a game and led the Celts with over 5 assists a game. Unfortunately. the statistical impact does not do him justice.

I will say that in Wilt's defense, he was hobbled with the bad knee, which he banged up in that game 7, leading to his 4th quarter benching. The benching was also a personal decision, which was total BS.

Well also Wilt did a lot of damage to Russell from 59-66 when he was putting up 30+ppg and 20+rpg daily but Russell had the better team in those years who knew how to win. Wilt as we know changed his game in 67 to finally win the title and just continued to change his game in 68 and 69 in which he surely wasn't the scorer he used to be. Russell and the Celtics also played with a chip on their shoulders in those 2 seasons with the whole being called old and stuff which they used as motivation to win it all.

Prior to game 7, Jack Kent Cooke had a bajillion balloons printed with "World Champion Lakers" in a net hung from the rafters and had arranged for Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Wilt to be interviewed, in that order, after the Lakers won game 7. Well, Russell was pissed as hell at the sight of the balloons in the rafters and got wind of the rest of the Lakers celebration plans and used that to help motivate the Celts. Remember that Russell was also the Celts coach his final 3 seasons. Anyways, the Lakers celebratory balloons stayed in the rafters.

And Y2ktors, unless you can provide a link to West saying that, I call bs. I've never heard of Wilt being injured in that series prior to late in game 7.

[elmouse03]

I will say that in Wilt's defense, he was hobbled with the bad knee, which he banged up in that game 7, leading to his 4th quarter benching. The benching was also a personal decision, which was total BS.

Well also Wilt did a lot of damage to Russell from 59-66 when he was putting up 30+ppg and 20+rpg daily but Russell had the better team in those years who knew how to win. Wilt as we know changed his game in 67 to finally win the title and just continued to change his game in 68 and 69 in which he surely wasn't the scorer he used to be. Russell and the Celtics also played with a chip on their shoulders in those 2 seasons with the whole being called old and stuff which they used as motivation to win it all.

Prior to game 7, Jack Kent Cooke had a bajillion balloons printed with "World Champion Lakers" in a net hung from the rafters and had arranged for Jerry West, Elgin Baylor and Wilt to be interviewed, in that order, after the Lakers won game 7. Well, Russell was pissed as hell at the sight of the balloons in the rafters and got wind of the rest of the Lakers celebration plans and used that to help motivate the Celts. Remember that Russell was also the Celts coach his final 3 seasons. Anyways, the Lakers celebratory balloons stayed in the rafters.

And Y2ktors, unless you can provide a link to West saying that, I call bs. I've never heard of Wilt being injured in that series prior to late in game 7.

Yeah I heard the story. Celtics came out on fire and by the 4th quarter were up 91-76 (i believe). Big deficit for the Lakers to come back from and they almost did it but the Celtics were just able to hang on. That finals was also the coming out party for Hondo.

[Y2K]

I agree with part of that. The banged knee happened late in the game (I think somewhere early in the fourth quarter) and Breda Kolff used it an as excuse to sit Wilt through at least part of the fourth. They did make a run with Wilt on the bench though, and it doesn't change the 4-13 from the line though and it sure doesn't change the 2-11 from the line in game 4 in a one point loss. Can you imagine in today's day and age how Wilt would be torn a new one over that????

Edit: I just checked and Wilt was injured with 5 minutes to go and the Lakers were down 7. They cut the lead to 1 with Wilt on the bench when he asked to go back in with just under 2 minutes to go but Breda Kolff stayed with Counts.

Jerry West had mentioned how Wilt Chamberlain was already hurting. He re-aggravated his injury in Game 7. But the horrid FT shooting is inexcusable.

On another note, I'm give it until 3 pm to see if more votes are tallied.

The funny thing is that West gives WIlt an out... even though Chamberlain ALWAYS threw West under the bus. Wilt's autobiography is one of the greatest works of fiction I've ever read.

It's roughly 300 pages of lies about his greatness while blaming everybody else for every one of his failures. For some reason... West is his primary target.

Totally blasted West for the 1973 loss to the Knicks. Wilt was just full of it.

[elmouse03]

Jerry West had mentioned how Wilt Chamberlain was already hurting. He re-aggravated his injury in Game 7. But the horrid FT shooting is inexcusable.

On another note, I'm give it until 3 pm to see if more votes are tallied.

The funny thing is that West gives WIlt an out... even though Chamberlain ALWAYS threw West under the bus. Wilt's autobiography is one of the greatest works of fiction I've ever read.

It's roughly 300 pages of lies about his greatness while blaming everybody else for every one of his failures. For some reason... West is his primary target.

Totally blasted West for the 1973 loss to the Knicks. Wilt was just full of it.

Was it 73 or 70 he blasted West?