What year did Pippen become

[Bush4Ever.]

Imagine claiming Pippen "made" BJ and Grant all-stars, and was equally responsible for making them Champions AND THEN expecting to be taken seriously.

He wasn't *equally* responsible. He was *more* responsible in developing teammate talent.

Jordan was a better individual player, but Pippen got more talent out of his teammates than Jordan did. That's why they were co-leaders to six rings.

Under Jordan's leadership, those two never sniffed an all-star game, but in the *first* year under Pippen they did.

Pippen, without Jordan has gone all the way to the conference finals, and would have done so in 1994 if not for a bogus call.
Jordan, without Pippen, has zero playoff series wins and no winning regular seasons.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Imagine claiming Pippen "made" BJ and Grant all-stars, and was equally responsible for making them Champions AND THEN expecting to be taken seriously.

He wasn't *equally* responsible. He was *more* responsible in developing teammate talent.

Jordan was a better individual player, but Pippen got more talent out of his teammates than Jordan did. That's why they were co-leaders to six rings.

Under Jordan's leadership, those two never sniffed an all-star game, but in the *first* year under Pippen they did.

Pippen, without Jordan has gone all the way to the conference finals, and would have done so in 1994 if not for a bogus call.
Jordan, without Pippen, has zero playoff series wins and no winning regular seasons.

You're trying too hard, but I'm free for the next hour or two so I'll play along...

1993 BJ: 12/2/3 on 50%/45%/86%
1994 BJ: 15/2/4 on 48%/44%/86%

1993 Ho Grant: 13/9/2.5 on 55%
1994 Ho Grant: 15/11/3.4 on 52%

Astute fans will understand that the slight increase in their overall 1994 numbers (minus FG%, which declined slightly for both) was due to the fact that the Bulls just lost the GOAT six weeks prior to the start of the season (along with his 32/6/6/53% on a nightly basis back then), which means Grant and BJ became the Bulls' 2nd/3rd option, rather than the 3rd/4th in 1993.

Plus, by the time 1994 rolled around they (along with Pippen) were veteran, Championship-level, battle-tested players who still ran the Triangle and still assumed (largely anyway) the same roles they had when Jordan was playing, only difference is they were forced to have to step up due to the loss of MJ... and they did:

1993 BJ: 30.4 min / 10 FGA
1994 BJ: 33.8 min / 12.3 FGA

1993 Ho Grant: 35.6 min / 10.8 FGA
1994 Ho Grant: 36.7 min / 12.5 FGA

More MPG and more FGA = the difference between their 1993 production vs. 1994... or are you suggesting Jordan should have been more of a "team player" and sacrificed his production in 1993 just so BJ and Grant could produce a little more and make the AS team?



Also, Jordan teammed with Pippen, Grant and BJ from their rookie seasons forward... and he was instrumental in all 3 of their developments as players; unlike Pippen, who in 1994 "inherited" BJ and Grant in the absolute prime of their careers... and again, astute hoops fans will know the difference between inheriting rookies vs. inheriting those same players at their absolute best.

You should know this... I'd hope, anyway.

[Bush4Ever.]

I anticipated that non-response, which is why I included all those other players from non-Pippen seasons as well.

Jordan took a multiple (4?) time scoring champion in George Gervin, and dragggggged him all the way to 16 points a game and not even an all-star game (he made it the previous year with ease, btw).

What's the "coincidental" (even though in lines up with 100 percent of the other cases) excuse for that?

Oops.

lol

What's the excuse for EVERY Pippen without Jordan season being more successful than EVERY Jordan without Pippen season?

Jordan played with three all-stars during his first threepeat, and two during the second in the expansion era.

I'm neutral on this entire topic and unbiased. I'm just here to be fair and report the facts.

Edit: By the way "points per game" and "fg percentage" are flawed statistics, unless you think Allen Iverson is a top 8 player all time (pts) and DeAndre Jordan is the GOAT (FGs) lol

[PhutureDynasty]

Allen Iverson is a top 8 player all time though...

[Shill Jackson]

Allen Iverson is a top 8 player all time though...

[PhutureDynasty]

Allen Iverson is a top 8 player all time though...

What's so funny about that?

[thedangerouskitchen]

I anticipated that non-response, which is why I included all those other players from non-Pippen seasons as well.

Jordan took a multiple (4?) time scoring champion in George Gervin, and dragggggged him all the way to 16 points a game and not even an all-star game (he made it the previous year with ease, btw).

What's the "coincidental" (even though in lines up with 100 percent of the other cases) excuse for that?

Oops.

lol

What's the excuse for EVERY Pippen without Jordan season being more successful than EVERY Jordan without Pippen season?

Jordan played with three all-stars during his first threepeat, and two during the second in the expansion era.

I'm neutral on this entire topic and unbiased. I'm just here to be fair and report the facts.

Edit: By the way "points per game" and "fg percentage" are flawed statistics, unless you think Allen Iverson is a top 8 player all time (pts) and DeAndre Jordan is the GOAT (FGs) lol

Jordan played only two (2) full seasons without Pippen in Chicago: 84-85 (his rookie year when he inherited a 27-win team and led them to 38 wins), and 86-87, when he led the Bulls to 40 wins with Charles Oakley as the 2nd best player (on a roster that was completely different to the one he inherited as a rookie)... unlike 94 Pippen, who inherited the core of a 3-Peat Championship team. Jordan only played 18 games his his second season, and the Bulls were 9-9 in those games.

In Washington MJ inherited a 19-win Wizards team and had them Top 3 in the EC before he got injured (after a 3-year layoff). Meanwhile Pippen joined Dream and Barkley in Houston, then the stacked Blazers.

That pretty much answers your silly question highlighted above.

George Gervin???? You mean the same guy who played on the Bulls when Jordan MISSED 64 games because of injury, and averaged only 5.5 minutes per game in the playoffs that year?

Yeah... what about him?



BTW... if you think a 15/2/4 player is a legit all-star (BJ Armstrong in 94) then you must also agree that LeCommie has played alongside 20 different All-Star level players during his career.

Keep trying...

[Bush4Ever.]

There's nothing to "try".

Those are facts.

Jordan had FIVE full seasons to a) win a playoff series, and b) have a winning regular season apart from Pippen.

Five swings.
Five whiffs.

At least Pippen (apart from Jordan) hit some singles and doubles.

Jordan's leadership is factually the most overrated element in sports history. It's why the Bulls barely missed a beat in 1994 (beyond losing Jordan's individual talents), and why he was emasculated repeatedly in the 00s as a leading player, not even getting to the playoffs...because the protective cocoon was gone and he actually had to do it on his own merits.

As an individual talent? Sure. Top 5 player all-time. No doubt.
As a leader? He literally isn't in the top 100 all-time.

Luka, Tatum, Joker, Embiid, Harden, etc...have ALL won playoff series without a top 30 player all-time.

Jordan? Nope.

lol

[Titan18]

TDK to Bush in this here message board thread. It’s been brutal

[Da Stars.]

TDK to Bush in this here message board thread. It’s been brutal

Are you telling me TDK is winning?

[Bush4Ever.]

Luka is more accomplished without a top 30 all-time player than Jordan is.

That's a fact. Not an opinion.

[Titan18]

TDK to Bush in this here message board thread. It’s been brutal

Are you telling me TDK is winning?

[Da Stars.]

TDK to Bush in this here message board thread. It’s been brutal

Are you telling me TDK is winning?

TDK for the TKO.

[Havlicekstealsit]

Allen Iverson is a top 8 player all time though...

I'm not even sure if he's a top 4 Sixer of all time tbh. Wilt, Moses, Dr. J, won MVPs AND titles there. And Barkley has more win shares but not the rings or MVP there. Plus Embiid's gaining ground fast.

[thedangerouskitchen]

There's nothing to "try".

Those are facts.

Jordan had FIVE full seasons to a) win a playoff series, and b) have a winning regular season apart from Pippen.

Five swings.
Five whiffs.

At least Pippen (apart from Jordan) hit some singles and doubles.

Jordan's leadership is factually the most overrated element in sports history. It's why the Bulls barely missed a beat in 1994 (beyond losing Jordan's individual talents), and why he was emasculated repeatedly in the 00s as a leading player, not even getting to the playoffs...because the protective cocoon was gone and he actually had to do it on his own merits.

As an individual talent? Sure. Top 5 player all-time. No doubt.
As a leader? He literally isn't in the top 100 all-time.

Luka, Tatum, Joker, Embiid, Harden, etc...have ALL won playoff series without a top 30 player all-time.

Jordan? Nope.

lol

4 "full" seasons, not 5... his rookie year, 3rd year, then the last 2 years inheriting a 19-win Wizards team vs. Pip inheriting a 3-Peat Championship core in 94, then joining Dream and Barkley to form a Super Team, then joining the talent-stacked Blazers.



Also... losing in the Semi's (94) vs. winning 3 straight Championships (91-93) = "barely missing a beat"??



You've been chewed up and spit out ITT bush. Walk it off and save yourself further humiliation.

[Bush4Ever.]

He was healthy for the entire 1986 playoffs and got his ass beat bloody.

Five seasons to win a single playoff series.

And 57 wins + title (93) to 55 wins + mid-playoff loss is *less* of a drop that you'd expect simply by removing a top 5 player all-time. Let alone a top 5 player all-time AND 100 percent of the player leadership that Jordan allegedly had.

Removing Jordan's individual talents is why they dropped two games and lost in the middle of the playoffs. I already acknowledged that. But if it was his individual talent AND leadership AND Horace Grant was actually not an all-star talent AND BJ Armstrong was actually not an all-star talent AND 90 percent of Pippen was attributed to Jordan, one would have expected them to win 20-25 games in 1994.

The fact they WILDLY outperformed that pace illustrates that while Jordan was an amazing individual talent, he actively suppressed others around him. Grant/Armstrong became all-stars immediately. Pippen became a legit MVP candidate, etc...

Jordan's rep as an individual talent is mostly deserved.
Jordan's rep as a leader is goofy, hilariously overblown. And it was proven 5x over when he couldn't lean on Pippen

[thedangerouskitchen]

He was healthy for the entire 1986 playoffs and got his ass beat bloody.

Five seasons to win a single playoff series.

And 57 wins + title (93) to 55 wins + mid-playoff loss is *less* of a drop that you'd expect simply by removing a top 5 player all-time. Let alone a top 5 player all-time AND 100 percent of the player leadership that Jordan allegedly had.

Removing Jordan's individual talents is why they dropped two games and lost in the middle of the playoffs. I already acknowledged that. But if it was his individual talent AND leadership AND Horace Grant was actually not an all-star talent AND BJ Armstrong was actually not an all-star talent AND 90 percent of Pippen was attributed to Jordan, one would have expected them to win 20-25 games in 1994.

The fact they WILDLY outperformed that pace illustrates that while Jordan was an amazing individual talent, he actively suppressed others around him. Grant/Armstrong became all-stars immediately. Pippen became a legit MVP candidate, etc...

Jordan's rep as an individual talent is mostly deserved.
Jordan's rep as a leader is goofy, hilariously overblown. And it was proven 5x over when he couldn't lean on Pippen

Your trolling is TOO obvious bush...

The Bulls won only 57 games in 93 because they weren't concerned with the regular season, because there was nothing to prove. In 94 the entire team had a chip on its shoulder. When you're at the GOAT level the ONLY thing that matters is Rings... that's why your buddy LeCommie can never sniff MJ's jock (ie; 6-0 vs. 4-6 - )

Jordan averaged 44/6/6/50% in the 86 Playoffs, prompting Larry Bird to call him "God"... yeah "he" got his ass handed to him.



Who cares about your opinion of Jordan as a leader. He's the NBA GOAT, that's all that matters.

Keep trying...

[Bush4Ever.]

If people's opinions about Jordan's leadership didn't matter, no one would mention it, and you wouldn't feel compelled to defend it.

Pretty simple.

The fact that you are eager to lie in a really obvious way on the topic indicates you place value on it.

I agree it's ultimate not a big deal though. Some people just have a better appreciation for facts and logic than others.

[PhutureDynasty]

Allen Iverson is a top 8 player all time though...

I'm not even sure if he's a top 4 Sixer of all time tbh. Wilt, Moses, Dr. J, won MVPs AND titles there. And Barkley has more win shares but not the rings or MVP there. Plus Embiid's gaining ground fast.

Embiid is already greater than AI.

That makes Joel a top 7 player all time already.




In all seriousness though it goes Wilt, Doctor, Moses, Barkley, Iverson/Joel, Joel/Iverson.

[thedangerouskitchen]

If people's opinions about Jordan's leadership didn't matter, no one would mention it, and you wouldn't feel compelled to defend it.

Pretty simple.

The fact that you are eager to lie in a really obvious way on the topic indicates you place value on it.

I agree it's ultimate not a big deal though. Some people just have a better appreciation for facts and logic than others.

What happened to Pippen's "leadership" in 95, when the Bulls were a mediocre 34-31 until the GOAT returned (to 'lead' them to a 13-4 record to finish the season)? Who was "leading" the Bulls to 62 wins in 98 (since you love talking about the regular season) when Pippen missed 38 games? Rodman? Kukoc?



Just quit while you're not ahead, but still not completely and thoroughly dismantled.