So a 5th Superbowl would make Tom Brady the undisputed GOAT, right?

[Bush4Ever]

BS... people (grizz and others) dismiss George Mikan's career because of his "era", yet these same people refuse to hold it against Russell for playing alongside 5-6-7 other HOFERS in an era where all the other teams (a whopping 8-10 in the entire league) had 2 or 3 HOFERS on the roster.

So yeah... anyone who holds Mikan's era against him should do the same with Russell IF they're being objective.

About to leave, and not really going to go over the refutations and counterpoints to some of those specific claims for the 20th time, but Mikan's era and Russell's era are *actually* different in meaningful ways.

That distinction is not arbitrary, and there isn't equivalence just because they are both old school.

[thedangerouskitchen]

So, in other words, you don't exactly disagree, you just didn't want to miss the chance to deepthroat Grizz?

You can agree with a conclusion while acknowledging the methods to get there are flawed. I'm not enough of a football fan to have a strong opinion about a fine-distinction like Brady vs. Montana, but I'm enough of one to recognize terrible arguments.

So the era in which Montana / Brady played (where one guy gets protected and coddled and the other had to literally fear for his life) AND the elite OL that Brady has played alongside his entire career... those are terrible arguments?

Sure thing.

Just admit it.. like riley said... you're just sucking your boy grizzie off just for the sake of doing so.

[Bush4Ever]

So the era in which Montana / Brady played (where one guy gets protected and coddled and the other had to literally fear for his life) AND the elite OL that Brady has played alongside his entire career... those are terrible arguments?

Sure thing.

What are you even reading?

I flatly said he plays with a great line, and that indeed the line is ultra-important to winning games. I think that's a valid point to bring to the table, although no...it's not a magic button that you can push to win the argument. It would be possible for Brady to be greater *and* play behind a superior offensive-line.

With respect to the "coddle" angle, that's not especially meaningful, since the rule changes are applied to all QBs within an era, not just Brady. That's why you look at ranks and how people compare to peers, rather than volume numbers and across eras.

[thedangerouskitchen]

BS... people (grizz and others) dismiss George Mikan's career because of his "era", yet these same people refuse to hold it against Russell for playing alongside 5-6-7 other HOFERS in an era where all the other teams (a whopping 8-10 in the entire league) had 2 or 3 HOFERS on the roster.

So yeah... anyone who holds Mikan's era against him should do the same with Russell IF they're being objective.

About to leave, and not really going to go over the refutations and counterpoints to some of those specific claims for the 20th time, but Mikan's era and Russell's era are *actually* different in meaningful ways.

That distinction is not arbitrary, and there isn't equivalence just because they are both old school.

Mikan's last Championship was 1954... Russell's first was 1957.

Tell us some more BS please.

Bottom line Russell played when his competition had 2-3 HOFERS on the roster and 8-10 teams in the league... not much different tha n Mikan's era (except Mikan never played alongside 5-7 other HOF teammates like Russell did).

So if we're going to completely discount Mikan's career because of his era, we ought to at least penalize Russell a bit for his... IF we're being objective, of course.

[thedangerouskitchen]

So the era in which Montana / Brady played (where one guy gets protected and coddled and the other had to literally fear for his life) AND the elite OL that Brady has played alongside his entire career... those are terrible arguments?

Sure thing.

What are you even reading?

I'm referring to your 'drunk' comments to me AFTER I raised the OL and era arguments against Brady / for Montana.

Question is, are you even reading?

[elmouse03]

7 superbowls for Brady and he's had absolutely nothing for WR's in comparison with some of the greats like Montana. I cant imagine how he'd have done if he had HOF WR's instead of tomato cans.

In Montana's first superbowl. He didn't have much offensively and 3 of the starting db's were rookies.

Also. The moon is or isn't made of bacon?

[Bush4Ever]

Mikan's last Championship was 1954... Russell's first was 1957.

So if we're going to completely discount Mikan's career because of his era, we ought to at least penalize Russell a bit for his... IF we're being objective, of course.

Shot clock. Better athletes with more skill (this is very common at the early stages of a sport), more teams, etc...

None of that is debatable or hard to understand.

For a point of reference, the most dominant physical force in Mikan's day was a guy who wouldn't make a D1 team today. In Russell's day, it was a guy that would conceivably be a NBA all-star in a league 50 years into the future.

[Deez]

7 superbowls for Brady and he's had absolutely nothing for WR's in comparison with some of the greats like Montana. I cant imagine how he'd have done if he had HOF WR's instead of tomato cans.

In Montana's first superbowl. He didn't have much offensively and 3 of the starting db's were rookies.

Also. The moon is or isn't made of bacon?

Yeah Montana is a stud and was the GOAT but Brady going to 7 superbowls. He's spent damn near half his career in the superbowl and might win his 5th. He's throwing to little white guys. He doesn't have an AJ Green, Julio Jones, Dez Bryant etc. He's throwing to me out on the field every game.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Mikan's last Championship was 1954... Russell's first was 1957.

So if we're going to completely discount Mikan's career because of his era, we ought to at least penalize Russell a bit for his... IF we're being objective, of course.

Shot clock. Better athletes with more skill (this is very common at the early stages of a sport), more teams, etc...

None of that is debatable or hard to understand.

For a point of reference, the most dominant physical force in Mikan's day was a guy who wouldn't make a D1 team today. In Russell's day, it was a guy that would conceivably be a NBA all-star in a league 50 years into the future.

So what about the shot clock, that didn't make the talent any better / worse... and FTR most of the changes to the game (back then) came BECAUSE OF Mikan's dominance... so yeah, let's hold that against Big George.



There were actually the same / more teams in Mikan's era than/as Russell's... and yeah, there was better talent in the 60's, and most of it was on the Celtics. On that note, there was better talent in the 80's and 90's than the 60's... yet another reason why we should hold Russell's era against him IF we're holding Mikan's era against him.

[gaskill15]

So, in other words, you don't exactly disagree, you just didn't want to miss the chance to deepthroat Grizz?

You can agree with a conclusion while acknowledging the methods to get there are flawed. I'm not enough of a football fan to have a strong opinion about a fine-distinction like Brady vs. Montana, but I'm enough of one to recognize terrible arguments.

So the era in which Montana / Brady played (where one guy gets protected and coddled and the other had to literally fear for his life) AND the elite OL that Brady has played alongside his entire career... those are terrible arguments?

Sure thing.

Just admit it.. like riley said... you're just sucking your boy grizzie off just for the sake of doing so.

I always forget about the days where they allowed DEs and OLBs to use machetes. Like how in god's name do you think football was played back then? Lol

[thedangerouskitchen]

You can agree with a conclusion while acknowledging the methods to get there are flawed. I'm not enough of a football fan to have a strong opinion about a fine-distinction like Brady vs. Montana, but I'm enough of one to recognize terrible arguments.

So the era in which Montana / Brady played (where one guy gets protected and coddled and the other had to literally fear for his life) AND the elite OL that Brady has played alongside his entire career... those are terrible arguments?

Sure thing.

Just admit it.. like riley said... you're just sucking your boy grizzie off just for the sake of doing so.

I always forget about the days where they allowed DEs and OLBs to use machetes. Like how in god's name do you think football was played back then? Lol

If you have to ask you clearly weren't around back then... in Montana's day THIS was a "legal" hit... and the mere fact that today's QB's can sit in the pocket KNOWING they're protected is a HUGE advantage:

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(fast forward to the 1:00 mark)

[gaskill15]

Cool. Defenders are also bigger, faster, and stronger nowadays with all the advantages they are given. Show me a Patrick Willis-like freak "back in the day".

[elmerjfudd]

7 superbowls for Brady and he's had absolutely nothing for WR's in comparison with some of the greats like Montana. I cant imagine how he'd have done if he had HOF WR's instead of tomato cans.

In Montana's first superbowl. He didn't have much offensively and 3 of the starting db's were rookies.

Also. The moon is or isn't made of bacon?

Yeah Montana is a stud and was the GOAT but Brady going to 7 superbowls. He's spent damn near half his career in the superbowl and might win his 5th. He's throwing to little white guys. He doesn't have an AJ Green, Julio Jones, Dez Bryant etc. He's throwing to me out on the field every game.

You don't need great wide receivers if your defense can get you the ball back time after time and protect very well on offense.

When the game mattered they held one of the best offenses in the league to 9 points.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Cool. Defenders are also bigger, faster, and stronger nowadays with all the advantages they are given. Show me a Patrick Willis-like freak "back in the day".

So you think it's 'no big deal' to legally give the QB a head shot, eh?

Okay then.

[Robceltsfan]

Why do people still engage TDK?

[thedangerouskitchen]

Why do people still engage TDK?

What about my comments do you disagree with... and please don't sit there and say that it's not a HUGE advantage for today's QB, knowing they're not going to get crushed by a 250 pound LB leading with his helmet.

[Robceltsfan]

Why do people still engage TDK?

What about my comments do you disagree with... and please don't sit there and say that it's not a HUGE advantage for today's QB, knowing they're not going to get crushed by a 250 pound LB leading with his helmet.

We've had these discussions with Glory Days enough for you to know the answer, troll.

[gaskill15]

Cool. Defenders are also bigger, faster, and stronger nowadays with all the advantages they are given. Show me a Patrick Willis-like freak "back in the day".

So you think it's 'no big deal' to legally give the QB a head shot, eh?

Okay then.

QBs still get blows to the head. Why do you think there's so many penalties now?

[thedangerouskitchen]

Why do people still engage TDK?

What about my comments do you disagree with... and please don't sit there and say that it's not a HUGE advantage for today's QB, knowing they're not going to get crushed by a 250 pound LB leading with his helmet.

We've had these discussions with Glory Days enough for you to know the answer, troll.

Nice deflection... just admit you don't have a fucking clue, and be done with it.

[gaskill15]

Why do people still engage TDK?

I doubt I've went back and forth with him more than 10 times in this board's history. Chill. Just enjoying a little sports banter.