Kingcarl24 wrote:I have a feeling that the more money Star Wars makes the more it will get the Avatar treatment. The small minority of people that didn't like it will feel they need to be louder and louder in social media and will make it seem like no one liked the movie. They'll all start spouting off on how it's just a copy of A New Hope and that the characters really sucked. Since they didn't like something that everyone else did, their insecurity will force them to go over the top with their hatred online and exaggerate how much they didn't like it.
But I never saw Avatar and I never even mention it!
Kingcarl24 wrote:I have a feeling that the more money Star Wars makes the more it will get the Avatar treatment. The small minority of people that didn't like it will feel they need to be louder and louder in social media and will make it seem like no one liked the movie. They'll all start spouting off on how it's just a copy of A New Hope and that the characters really sucked. Since they didn't like something that everyone else did, their insecurity will force them to go over the top with their hatred online and exaggerate how much they didn't like it.
But I never saw Avatar and I never even mention it!
I would be a bit more generous than that. I was entertained and that's what I paid for.
I was a bit disappointed in the new villain. Honestly, when he takes off his mask, he seems (pardon the expression), too faggy to pull it off. I could kick his ass. I was also disappointed in the black guy. While his acting was fine enough for the part, for chrissakes, get in shape. You're a star in a major action movie and you're at least 25 pounds overweight!! Dafuck is that about.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:I would be a bit more generous than that. I was entertained and that's what I paid for.
I was a bit disappointed in the new villain. Honestly, when he takes off his mask, he seems (pardon the expression), too faggy to pull it off. I could kick his ass. I was also disappointed in the black guy. While his acting was fine enough for the part, for chrissakes, get in shape. You're a star in a major action movie and you're at least 25 pounds overweight!! Dafuck is that about.
I don't really view Kylo Ren as the villain though. He's young and idolizes Vader, but is clearly trying to be something he's not, at least not yet. We're seeing him at a different stage in his journey than we saw Vader in episodes IV, V, VI. The character makes sense that way. He's not supposed to be this super powerful ultimate villain. He has the potential but is much more a puppet in Episode VII. Snoke is the villain in this film.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:I would be a bit more generous than that. I was entertained and that's what I paid for.
I was a bit disappointed in the new villain. Honestly, when he takes off his mask, he seems (pardon the expression), too faggy to pull it off. I could kick his ass. I was also disappointed in the black guy. While his acting was fine enough for the part, for chrissakes, get in shape. You're a star in a major action movie and you're at least 25 pounds overweight!! Dafuck is that about.
I don't really view Kylo Ren as the villain though. He's young and idolizes Vader, but is clearly trying to be something he's not, at least not yet. We're seeing him at a different stage in his journey than we saw Vader in episodes IV, V, VI. The character makes sense that way. He's not supposed to be this super powerful ultimate villain. He has the potential but is much more a puppet in Episode VII. Snoke is the villain in this film.
As far as the story goes for the film though... Snoke is the most powerful. But if Kylo Ren didn't work at some level as "the villain"... the entire movie is a sham. Everything is set up for him to be the villain that carries the action.
Otherwise, we'd be sitting there thinking... "Meh. This interaction with Han Solo on the bridge means nothing. And that fight in the woods. Because that hologram guy is the real villain."
You can do bad things without being the villain. He was the antagonist but that doesn't make him the ultimate villain of the film. There are shades of grey in these characters. In this good v evil story, Kylo Ren represents someone torn between both sides as opposed to a pure good (Yoda) or a pure evil (Vader initially). In a way I think you are both correct because Kylo Ren does work as the villain on 'some level' but he also clearly is not the ultimate villain of the trilogy.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:I would be a bit more generous than that. I was entertained and that's what I paid for.
I was a bit disappointed in the new villain. Honestly, when he takes off his mask, he seems (pardon the expression), too faggy to pull it off. I could kick his ass. I was also disappointed in the black guy. While his acting was fine enough for the part, for chrissakes, get in shape. You're a star in a major action movie and you're at least 25 pounds overweight!! Dafuck is that about.
I don't really view Kylo Ren as the villain though. He's young and idolizes Vader, but is clearly trying to be something he's not, at least not yet. We're seeing him at a different stage in his journey than we saw Vader in episodes IV, V, VI. The character makes sense that way. He's not supposed to be this super powerful ultimate villain. He has the potential but is much more a puppet in Episode VII. Snoke is the villain in this film.
As far as the story goes for the film though... Snoke is the most powerful. But if Kylo Ren didn't work at some level as "the villain"... the entire movie is a sham. Everything is set up for him to be the villain that carries the action.
Otherwise, we'd be sitting there thinking... "Meh. This interaction with Han Solo on the bridge means nothing. And that fight in the woods. Because that hologram guy is the real villain."
Ren is definitely in line with Vader as far as villains go. Vader wasn't the mastermind villain either....the Emperor was. Same goes for Ren and Snoke.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Kobeunderbite wrote:You can do bad things without being the villain. He was the antagonist but that doesn't make him the ultimate villain of the film. There are shades of grey in these characters. In this good v evil story, Kylo Ren represents someone torn between both sides as opposed to a pure good (Yoda) or a pure evil (Vader initially). In a way I think you are both correct because Kylo Ren does work as the villain on 'some level' but he also clearly is not the ultimate villain of the trilogy.
I'm discussing this movie... not in movies that are not out yet.
For example, I didn't look at Star Wars and think... "I'm unwilling to treat this Vader character as THE villain because there might be an Emperor guy in another film six years from now."
vcsgrizzfan wrote:I would be a bit more generous than that. I was entertained and that's what I paid for.
I was a bit disappointed in the new villain. Honestly, when he takes off his mask, he seems (pardon the expression), too faggy to pull it off. I could kick his ass. I was also disappointed in the black guy. While his acting was fine enough for the part, for chrissakes, get in shape. You're a star in a major action movie and you're at least 25 pounds overweight!! Dafuck is that about.
I don't really view Kylo Ren as the villain though. He's young and idolizes Vader, but is clearly trying to be something he's not, at least not yet. We're seeing him at a different stage in his journey than we saw Vader in episodes IV, V, VI. The character makes sense that way. He's not supposed to be this super powerful ultimate villain. He has the potential but is much more a puppet in Episode VII. Snoke is the villain in this film.
As far as the story goes for the film though... Snoke is the most powerful. But if Kylo Ren didn't work at some level as "the villain"... the entire movie is a sham. Everything is set up for him to be the villain that carries the action.
Otherwise, we'd be sitting there thinking... "Meh. This interaction with Han Solo on the bridge means nothing. And that fight in the woods. Because that hologram guy is the real villain."
Ren is "a" villain but he's not "THE" villain. The "interaction" with Han Solo on the bridge is part of his journey to the Dark Side. That's why he says "thank you" when it's over, because it's taking him further down the path he wants to go. That sets up further development of the character in the next episode, probably to the point that he becomes "THE" villain. That's why Snoke mentions Ren being brought to him to complete his training near the end of the film. Ren is not a Sith "yet", which is made explicitly clear. However he plays the role of apprentice to Snoke in the Sith Master-Apprentice relationship.
To say that the scene with Solo makes no sense in that context is absurd. It's probably one of the most important scenes in the franchise.
ripper76 wrote:
I don't really view Kylo Ren as the villain though. He's young and idolizes Vader, but is clearly trying to be something he's not, at least not yet. We're seeing him at a different stage in his journey than we saw Vader in episodes IV, V, VI. The character makes sense that way. He's not supposed to be this super powerful ultimate villain. He has the potential but is much more a puppet in Episode VII. Snoke is the villain in this film.
As far as the story goes for the film though... Snoke is the most powerful. But if Kylo Ren didn't work at some level as "the villain"... the entire movie is a sham. Everything is set up for him to be the villain that carries the action.
Otherwise, we'd be sitting there thinking... "Meh. This interaction with Han Solo on the bridge means nothing. And that fight in the woods. Because that hologram guy is the real villain."
Ren is "a" villain but he's not "THE" villain. The "interaction" with Han Solo on the bridge is part of his journey to the Dark Side. That's why he says "thank you" when it's over, because it's taking him further down the path he wants to go. That sets up further development of the character in the next episode, probably to the point that he becomes "THE" villain. That's why Snoke mentions Ren being brought to him to complete his training near the end of the film. Ren is not a Sith "yet", which is made explicitly clear. However he plays the role of apprentice to Snoke in the Sith Master-Apprentice relationship.
To say that the scene with Solo makes no sense in that context is absurd. It's probably one of the most important scenes in the franchise.
As far as the story goes for the film though... Snoke is the most powerful. But if Kylo Ren didn't work at some level as "the villain"... the entire movie is a sham. Everything is set up for him to be the villain that carries the action.
Otherwise, we'd be sitting there thinking... "Meh. This interaction with Han Solo on the bridge means nothing. And that fight in the woods. Because that hologram guy is the real villain."
Ren is "a" villain but he's not "THE" villain. The "interaction" with Han Solo on the bridge is part of his journey to the Dark Side. That's why he says "thank you" when it's over, because it's taking him further down the path he wants to go. That sets up further development of the character in the next episode, probably to the point that he becomes "THE" villain. That's why Snoke mentions Ren being brought to him to complete his training near the end of the film. Ren is not a Sith "yet", which is made explicitly clear. However he plays the role of apprentice to Snoke in the Sith Master-Apprentice relationship.
To say that the scene with Solo makes no sense in that context is absurd. It's probably one of the most important scenes in the franchise.
Still looks life a fag.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Kobeunderbite wrote:You can do bad things without being the villain. He was the antagonist but that doesn't make him the ultimate villain of the film. There are shades of grey in these characters. In this good v evil story, Kylo Ren represents someone torn between both sides as opposed to a pure good (Yoda) or a pure evil (Vader initially). In a way I think you are both correct because Kylo Ren does work as the villain on 'some level' but he also clearly is not the ultimate villain of the trilogy.
I'm discussing this movie... not in movies that are not out yet.
For example, I didn't look at Star Wars and think... "I'm unwilling to treat this Vader character as THE villain because there might be an Emperor guy in another film six years from now."
Even in a vacuum, you can make the case that Vader is not the ultimate villain in ANH, as he was following orders from the emperor, who was present in the film (presence was felt, rather). Kylo Ren was even more submissive/beta and ultimately torn between good and evil. The bridge scene wasn't meant to make you think "omg what a super evil villain" at all, I don't think. It was more representative of his inner conflict than anything else.
Kobeunderbite wrote:You can do bad things without being the villain. He was the antagonist but that doesn't make him the ultimate villain of the film. There are shades of grey in these characters. In this good v evil story, Kylo Ren represents someone torn between both sides as opposed to a pure good (Yoda) or a pure evil (Vader initially). In a way I think you are both correct because Kylo Ren does work as the villain on 'some level' but he also clearly is not the ultimate villain of the trilogy.
I'm discussing this movie... not in movies that are not out yet.
For example, I didn't look at Star Wars and think... "I'm unwilling to treat this Vader character as THE villain because there might be an Emperor guy in another film six years from now."
Even in a vacuum, you can make the case that Vader is not the ultimate villain in ANH, as he was following orders from the emperor, who was present in the film (presence was felt, rather). Kylo Ren was even more submissive/beta and ultimately torn between good and evil. The bridge scene wasn't meant to make you think "omg what a super evil villain" at all, I don't think. It was more representative of his inner conflict than anything else.
We can disagree. I'm not looking for the guy behind the guy to create suspense by pushing the strings OFF camera.
I want to get a charge out of Vader squeezing a guy's neck from across the room... from Ren stopping lasers or wielding his lightsaber. For me, Darth Vader remains one of the most iconic "villains" in movie history. The Emperor does not, even if he was more powerful and ultimately Vader's boss.
For example, I don't look back at Rocky IV and think "Ivan Drago was fine I guess... but those fat cats in the Politburo were the real villains of the movie."
Kobeunderbite wrote:You can do bad things without being the villain. He was the antagonist but that doesn't make him the ultimate villain of the film. There are shades of grey in these characters. In this good v evil story, Kylo Ren represents someone torn between both sides as opposed to a pure good (Yoda) or a pure evil (Vader initially). In a way I think you are both correct because Kylo Ren does work as the villain on 'some level' but he also clearly is not the ultimate villain of the trilogy.
I'm discussing this movie... not in movies that are not out yet.
For example, I didn't look at Star Wars and think... "I'm unwilling to treat this Vader character as THE villain because there might be an Emperor guy in another film six years from now."
If that's the way you choose to look at it that's fine, but the character won't really make sense that way.
Episode IV: A New Hope was made largely as a stand alone movie and a lot more black and white because Lucas didn't think it would be that successful and wasn't sure he'd get a chance to tell the rest of the story he had in mind. That's why it was released as Star Wars and not changed to Episode IV until after the fact. Vader is presented as the clear villain because that's how it had to be to make one movie work.
If you're looking for complete development of characters and a nicely wrapped up story in one episode of what is now a nine part story, a lot of things aren't going to make sense. Context matters a lot at this point.
Kobeunderbite wrote:You can do bad things without being the villain. He was the antagonist but that doesn't make him the ultimate villain of the film. There are shades of grey in these characters. In this good v evil story, Kylo Ren represents someone torn between both sides as opposed to a pure good (Yoda) or a pure evil (Vader initially). In a way I think you are both correct because Kylo Ren does work as the villain on 'some level' but he also clearly is not the ultimate villain of the trilogy.
I'm discussing this movie... not in movies that are not out yet.
For example, I didn't look at Star Wars and think... "I'm unwilling to treat this Vader character as THE villain because there might be an Emperor guy in another film six years from now."
If that's the way you choose to look at it that's fine, but the character won't really make sense that way.
Episode IV: A New Hope was made largely as a stand alone movie and a lot more black and white because Lucas didn't think it would be that successful and wasn't sure he'd get a chance to tell the rest of the story he had in mind. That's why it was released as Star Wars and not changed to Episode IV until after the fact. Vader is presented as the clear villain because that's how it had to be to make one movie work.
If you're looking for complete development of characters and a nicely wrapped up story in one episode of what is now a nine part story, a lot of things aren't going to make sense. Context matters a lot at this point.
Still. When you see him without his mask, do you not get the feeling he's more likely going to turn into a dance instructor than an iconic villain?
Kobeunderbite wrote:You can do bad things without being the villain. He was the antagonist but that doesn't make him the ultimate villain of the film. There are shades of grey in these characters. In this good v evil story, Kylo Ren represents someone torn between both sides as opposed to a pure good (Yoda) or a pure evil (Vader initially). In a way I think you are both correct because Kylo Ren does work as the villain on 'some level' but he also clearly is not the ultimate villain of the trilogy.
I'm discussing this movie... not in movies that are not out yet.
For example, I didn't look at Star Wars and think... "I'm unwilling to treat this Vader character as THE villain because there might be an Emperor guy in another film six years from now."
If that's the way you choose to look at it that's fine, but the character won't really make sense that way.
Episode IV: A New Hope was made largely as a stand alone movie and a lot more black and white because Lucas didn't think it would be that successful and wasn't sure he'd get a chance to tell the rest of the story he had in mind. That's why it was released as Star Wars and not changed to Episode IV until after the fact. Vader is presented as the clear villain because that's how it had to be to make one movie work.
If you're looking for complete development of characters and a nicely wrapped up story in one episode of what is now a nine part story, a lot of things aren't going to make sense. Context matters a lot at this point.
I'm not doing that.
But nearly every action in the film by characters is in response to Ren... not Snoke. They don't even know who Snoke is. Ren looks menacing and kills the villagers. He threatens Rey. Kills Solo. Et al.
His character is villainous throughout. He's driving the story. Is he conflicted? Sure. Will he evolve? Most probably. Is he a puppet for Snoke? Sure... but that's largely irrelevant here as him being the villain is driving the action. You can claim "actually it's Snoke by influencing Ren." Meh. We're talking a movie here that has to be captivating. And Ren is captivating enough as a conflicted villain to make it work in THIS movie.
I'm discussing this movie... not in movies that are not out yet.
For example, I didn't look at Star Wars and think... "I'm unwilling to treat this Vader character as THE villain because there might be an Emperor guy in another film six years from now."
If that's the way you choose to look at it that's fine, but the character won't really make sense that way.
Episode IV: A New Hope was made largely as a stand alone movie and a lot more black and white because Lucas didn't think it would be that successful and wasn't sure he'd get a chance to tell the rest of the story he had in mind. That's why it was released as Star Wars and not changed to Episode IV until after the fact. Vader is presented as the clear villain because that's how it had to be to make one movie work.
If you're looking for complete development of characters and a nicely wrapped up story in one episode of what is now a nine part story, a lot of things aren't going to make sense. Context matters a lot at this point.
Still. When you see him without his mask, do you not get the feeling he's more likely going to turn into a dance instructor than an iconic villain?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Guy A is deeply conflicted and torn between good and evil, Guy B is manipulating guy A into being evil. It's definitely not a stretch to peg B as the villain.
We're just getting into semantics, though. Kylo Ren did bad things and made things difficult for the good guys, so in that sense he was villainous. That we can probably all agree on. I just don't think that he is necessarily the villain. Heck, even Han and Leia thought he was redeemable after he had slaughtered everyone in that jedi temple along with countless others en route to becoming a First Order leader.
