2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #43

[Odogg]

Also I can't get there with T-Mac. Tremendous talent, sure, but complete failure in the playoffs, and totally punked out in the last year of his Rockets contract, faking injury to avoid getting traded, while banking $21M for his troubles.

[Y2K]

Also I can't get there with T-Mac. Tremendous talent, sure, but complete failure in the playoffs, and totally punked out in the last year of his Rockets contract, faking injury to avoid getting traded, while banking $21M for his troubles.

The tremendous talent part is what stands out to me. Before the injuries, he was a great player. I never liked him or his demeanor but I'll give him the talented part.

[vcsgrizzfan]

I'm gonna wait to see who grizz and abe vote for

They both vote for George Mikan.

I just think it's gotten derailed a while back and its getting worse. But it's interesting to watch from outside.

By the way, Billups nominated before Wallace is still completely ridiculous.

[Y2K]

I'm gonna wait to see who grizz and abe vote for

They both vote for George Mikan.

I just think it's gotten derailed a while back and its getting worse. But it's interesting to watch from outside.

By the way, Billups nominated before Wallace is still completely ridiculous.

You say that, which I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I don't fully understand what is so ridiculous. Talk to me, grizz.

[vcsgrizzfan]

They both vote for George Mikan.

I just think it's gotten derailed a while back and its getting worse. But it's interesting to watch from outside.

By the way, Billups nominated before Wallace is still completely ridiculous.

You say that, which I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I don't fully understand what is so ridiculous. Talk to me, grizz.

Ben anchored that defense that was why they won. He was not replaceable. At his peak, he was an athletic freak who dominated the paint at the defensive end. He could jump, land and jump again with the same speed as a guard. He had tremendously quick hands for deflections and steals in the paint as well.

In any case, he was the defensive anchor and they won primarily because of his ability to guard the bucket and rebound the ball.

I think there was a number of guys who could have replaced Billups. You weren't replacing what Ben brought.

His peak was short because he was so reliant on his freakish athleticism.

It's easy to go back and try to rewrite history. The truth is though, that Ben was the MVP of those best Pistons teams.

[Havlicekstealsit]

Ray Allen.

[wailuaFC]

I just think it's gotten derailed a while back and its getting worse. But it's interesting to watch from outside.

By the way, Billups nominated before Wallace is still completely ridiculous.

You say that, which I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I don't fully understand what is so ridiculous. Talk to me, grizz.

Ben anchored that defense that was why they won. He was not replaceable. At his peak, he was an athletic freak who dominated the paint at the defensive end. He could jump, land and jump again with the same speed as a guard. He had tremendously quick hands for deflections and steals in the paint as well.

In any case, he was the defensive anchor and they won primarily because of his ability to guard the bucket and rebound the ball.

I think there was a number of guys who could have replaced Billups. You weren't replacing what Ben brought.

His peak was short because he was so reliant on his freakish athleticism.

It's easy to go back and try to rewrite history. The truth is though, that Ben was the MVP of those best Pistons teams.

And he wasn't the offensive liability people make him out to be. Sure he wasn't a great scorer, but he was an excellent screen setter and great offensive rebounder, he did all the little things without ever overstepping his role.

[Bush4Ever]

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with Grizz's post above.

I think the main reason someone would confuse CB against Wallace is because they underestimate the degree to which Wallace contributed to the offense of the Pistons, because he did it in a very unusual way. He wasn't as important as CB, but he was absolutely not a non-contributor offensively.

Defense is obviously a mile-high crush for Big Ben, and the 2004 Pistons primarily won through defense.

On net, Wallace counted a step or two more to the bottom line.

[Havlicekstealsit]

Those Pistons having a 2nd year role player with gangly arms render LA's 2nd option practically useless also helped them to a title, but yeah Ben Wallace meant more to those teams than Billups or Rip IMO. Just like KG anchoring Boston in '08 - they don't sniff the Finals if he's not there.

[Y2K]

I just think it's gotten derailed a while back and its getting worse. But it's interesting to watch from outside.

By the way, Billups nominated before Wallace is still completely ridiculous.

You say that, which I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I don't fully understand what is so ridiculous. Talk to me, grizz.

Ben anchored that defense that was why they won. He was not replaceable. At his peak, he was an athletic freak who dominated the paint at the defensive end. He could jump, land and jump again with the same speed as a guard. He had tremendously quick hands for deflections and steals in the paint as well.

In any case, he was the defensive anchor and they won primarily because of his ability to guard the bucket and rebound the ball.

I think there was a number of guys who could have replaced Billups. You weren't replacing what Ben brought.

His peak was short because he was so reliant on his freakish athleticism.

It's easy to go back and try to rewrite history. The truth is though, that Ben was the MVP of those best Pistons teams.

And see, I can get with this UNTIL after he left the Pistons. Recall, his last season in Detroit is arguably his peak.

The next season, Detroit's defensive dropped from 5th to 7th. By 2008, they were better than in Ben's last season.

Nazr and C-Webb cannot possibly have been equal replacements but statistically, the Pistons were not worse without Ben. Detroit's dropoff didn't happen until they blew the team up, trading Billups to Denver, etc.

Ben Wallace leaves Detroit and his career Quickly fades. His on/off was -5.1 in his best season in Chicago, the season following his peak season.

I'm not saying that Ben shouldn't be in the conversation. What I am saying is that he was valuable during that run in Detroit. I don't agree that he was the most important cog in the system because they weren't impacted by his departure.

[Y2K]

You say that, which I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I don't fully understand what is so ridiculous. Talk to me, grizz.

Ben anchored that defense that was why they won. He was not replaceable. At his peak, he was an athletic freak who dominated the paint at the defensive end. He could jump, land and jump again with the same speed as a guard. He had tremendously quick hands for deflections and steals in the paint as well.

In any case, he was the defensive anchor and they won primarily because of his ability to guard the bucket and rebound the ball.

I think there was a number of guys who could have replaced Billups. You weren't replacing what Ben brought.

His peak was short because he was so reliant on his freakish athleticism.

It's easy to go back and try to rewrite history. The truth is though, that Ben was the MVP of those best Pistons teams.

And he wasn't the offensive liability people make him out to be. Sure he wasn't a great scorer, but he was an excellent screen setter and great offensive rebounder, he did all the little things without ever overstepping his role.

He couldn't score, shoot, pass or be any threat outside of the basket. That makes him a liability. Screen setting and rebounding gave him some resemblance of value but he still was a liability.

[wailuaFC]

Ben anchored that defense that was why they won. He was not replaceable. At his peak, he was an athletic freak who dominated the paint at the defensive end. He could jump, land and jump again with the same speed as a guard. He had tremendously quick hands for deflections and steals in the paint as well.

In any case, he was the defensive anchor and they won primarily because of his ability to guard the bucket and rebound the ball.

I think there was a number of guys who could have replaced Billups. You weren't replacing what Ben brought.

His peak was short because he was so reliant on his freakish athleticism.

It's easy to go back and try to rewrite history. The truth is though, that Ben was the MVP of those best Pistons teams.

And he wasn't the offensive liability people make him out to be. Sure he wasn't a great scorer, but he was an excellent screen setter and great offensive rebounder, he did all the little things without ever overstepping his role.

He couldn't score, shoot, pass or be any threat outside of the basket. That makes him a liability. Screen setting and rebounding gave him some resemblance of value but he still was a liability.

I completely disagree, his rebounding allowed him to clean up easy baskets and allowed his team many extra possessions, and with detroits grind it out style those extra offensive possessions were more valuable then you'd think. The man was always near the top of his team for ortg with a career ortg of 108, higher then rip Hamilton who was the offensive go to.

[Y2K]

And he wasn't the offensive liability people make him out to be. Sure he wasn't a great scorer, but he was an excellent screen setter and great offensive rebounder, he did all the little things without ever overstepping his role.

He couldn't score, shoot, pass or be any threat outside of the basket. That makes him a liability. Screen setting and rebounding gave him some resemblance of value but he still was a liability.

I completely disagree, his rebounding allowed him to clean up easy baskets and allowed his team many extra possessions, and with detroits grind it out style those extra offensive possessions were more valuable then you'd think. The man was always near the top of his team for ortg with a career ortg of 108, higher then rip Hamilton who was the offensive go to.

If Ben wasn't a liability, then no player can be one, and I don't agree with that. Every player brings something of positive value to an offense But all levels of value are not equal.

[Deez]

I nominate Ben Wallace

[Bush4Ever]

It's probably a better idea to think of "value" or "overall contribution" rather than ideas like being a "liability" or "limitation".

Reason being, you can be a liability in some ways, but compensate for those liabilities (or more) in producing positive value on net for your team. On the other hand, you can have a relative lack of "liabilities", but also not have any significant positives and therefore not produce great value on net.

Like I've said before, a player who couldn't shoot/score, pass, rebound, screen, etc...worth a lick would still be the greatest player in history if he blocked 30 shots a game

[wailuaFC]

He couldn't score, shoot, pass or be any threat outside of the basket. That makes him a liability. Screen setting and rebounding gave him some resemblance of value but he still was a liability.

I completely disagree, his rebounding allowed him to clean up easy baskets and allowed his team many extra possessions, and with detroits grind it out style those extra offensive possessions were more valuable then you'd think. The man was always near the top of his team for ortg with a career ortg of 108, higher then rip Hamilton who was the offensive go to.

If Ben wasn't a liability, then no player can be one, and I don't agree with that. Every player brings something of positive value to an offense But all levels of value are not equal.

I don't know how you could call him a liability though, he did a lot of things very well on the offensive end and way more importantly he didn't try to do anything he couldn't. He's not a rondo or Kobe who would hurt the offense by stopping the ball or over shooting his team out of games, and he was a darn good finisher that played close to the hoop so defenses couldn't leave/ignore him or he'd make them pay. There's a reason he was usually in the top 3 for ortg for those Pistons teams

[Bush4Ever]

There is a difference between having certain individual liabilities on offense and being a liability to the offense *on net*.

The first is definitely true for Ben Wallace. The second is IMO, not true or at least is fairly exaggerated by most fans.

[Y2K]

There is a difference between having certain individual liabilities on offense and being a liability to the offense *on net*.

The first is definitely true for Ben Wallace. The second is IMO, not true or at least is fairly exaggerated by most fans.

well stated.

The latter is true in some seasons...but not all or even a majority.

Like Wailua said, he played within his limitations and that I do applaud. Btw, Rondo is a selfish shithead who can definitely be a liability offensively.

[Y2K]

I nominate Ben Wallace

[Bush4Ever]

The latter is true in some seasons...but not all or even a majority.

Disclaimer: Haven't examined nearly all the data intimately and didn't watch the Pistons tons in that time period (college).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... abe01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to his offensive +/- he cost the Pistons approximately 1.5 to 2 points per 100 possessions during his Pistons years.

That strikes me as being somewhat close the average (albeit on the bad side), and not overwhelmingly bad.

In basically all the years the Pistons were a serious contender, he also led the Pistons in *overall* +/- as well.