2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #35

[Odogg]

Wilkins & McGrady



p.s. LOL @ Lakers fans not getting Worthy on the ballot yet.

I shifted focus to Gasol, me and Shill are the only Laker fans on here who appreciate the 80s teams. Except maybe UNCMJ fan but he's a nutjob.

A lot of us have respect for them (cooper is criminally underrated by everyone), but a lot of us also realize there are many players with a better resume then 2 3rd team all NBA selections and a few 3rd fiddle rings. Worthy may have been the 36th best player ever, but sitting behind magic and Kareem he never showed that for a long enough period to warrant any votes yet

Here's where I disagree- while Worthy was clearly the 3rd fiddle for the ring in 85 (which was Kareem's last hurrah as a top player), by 87 he was arguably the 2nd fiddle (e.g. he led the team in scoring in the playoffs) and by 88 he was most definitely 2nd in command. At this stage of the list this is an important distinction.

[Y2K]

Ben Wallace was far more important to that Pistons title winning team than Billups.

Dantley is absurdly overrated. The ultimate stat whore who couldn't help you win jack shit.

PER favors Billups over Wallace....but that isn't the deciding factor.

Big freaking deal. PER matters on the offensive side of the ball, but doesn't mean much on the defensive end as you know.

That team suffocated you defensively and the unquestioned leader of that defense was Ben.

Not debating the defensive part. Ben definitely did that. Billups was a damn good defensive player in his own right while Ben was just a huge liability his entire career offensively.

[wailuaFC]

I shifted focus to Gasol, me and Shill are the only Laker fans on here who appreciate the 80s teams. Except maybe UNCMJ fan but he's a nutjob.

A lot of us have respect for them (cooper is criminally underrated by everyone), but a lot of us also realize there are many players with a better resume then 2 3rd team all NBA selections and a few 3rd fiddle rings. Worthy may have been the 36th best player ever, but sitting behind magic and Kareem he never showed that for a long enough period to warrant any votes yet

Here's where I disagree- while Worthy was clearly the 3rd fiddle for the ring in 85 (which was Kareem's last hurrah as a top player), by 87 he was arguably the 2nd fiddle (e.g. he led the team in scoring in the playoffs) and by 88 he was most definitely 2nd in command. At this stage of the list this is an important distinction.

Regardless of how you'd like to classify the rings he won, his overall play doesn't warrant consideration yet. He was a 7 time all star with a fmvp, but he never was one of the elite players in the league as the highest he ever finished in MVP voting was 12th, though always being near the league leaders for attempts and percentages he never finished in the top 10 for scoring, and he wasn't much of a defensive player. He never had the impact that Wallace, Rodman, Wilkins, hill, McGrady, etc had and with only 12 seasons played, his relatively short career isn't winning him any brownie points either

[Odogg]

Sounds like you are referencing a bunch of regular season comparisons, with Worthy you also need to look at the stats in the 143 playoff games he played in. Also he was an above average defender.

[wailuaFC]

Sounds like you are referencing a bunch of regular season comparisons, with Worthy you need to look at the stats in the 143 playoff games he played in. Also he was an above average defender.

I'm referencing his entire career, bigger sample sizes are used to show the whole picture, smaller ones to show an agenda. We will have to agree to disagree about his defense, his 0.0 DBPM and 108 DRtg really aren't that good but numbers tell a very small story of defense I know

[Odogg]

I revised my post, I meant to say you ALSO need to look at playoffs in Worthy's case. Stuff like MVP measurements is purely regular season.

[Y2K]

I shifted focus to Gasol, me and Shill are the only Laker fans on here who appreciate the 80s teams. Except maybe UNCMJ fan but he's a nutjob.

A lot of us have respect for them (cooper is criminally underrated by everyone), but a lot of us also realize there are many players with a better resume then 2 3rd team all NBA selections and a few 3rd fiddle rings. Worthy may have been the 36th best player ever, but sitting behind magic and Kareem he never showed that for a long enough period to warrant any votes yet

Here's where I disagree- while Worthy was clearly the 3rd fiddle for the ring in 85 (which was Kareem's last hurrah as a top player), by 87 he was arguably the 2nd fiddle (e.g. he led the team in scoring in the playoffs) and by 88 he was most definitely 2nd in command. At this stage of the list this is an important distinction.

Except by the time that 1988 hit, the difference between Magic Johnson and any other player on the team was so large that Worthy was not even the "typical" #2.

[Y2K]

A lot of us have respect for them (cooper is criminally underrated by everyone), but a lot of us also realize there are many players with a better resume then 2 3rd team all NBA selections and a few 3rd fiddle rings. Worthy may have been the 36th best player ever, but sitting behind magic and Kareem he never showed that for a long enough period to warrant any votes yet

Here's where I disagree- while Worthy was clearly the 3rd fiddle for the ring in 85 (which was Kareem's last hurrah as a top player), by 87 he was arguably the 2nd fiddle (e.g. he led the team in scoring in the playoffs) and by 88 he was most definitely 2nd in command. At this stage of the list this is an important distinction.

Regardless of how you'd like to classify the rings he won, his overall play doesn't warrant consideration yet. He was a 7 time all star with a fmvp, but he never was one of the elite players in the league as the highest he ever finished in MVP voting was 12th, though always being near the league leaders for attempts and percentages he never finished in the top 10 for scoring, and he wasn't much of a defensive player. He never had the impact that Wallace, Rodman, Wilkins, hill, McGrady, etc had and with only 12 seasons played, his relatively short career isn't winning him any brownie points either

His career went to crap without Magic. Part of it was injury but the biggest was that individually he simply was not an elite player.

[wailuaFC]

I revised my post, I meant to say you ALSO need to look at playoffs in Worthy's case. Stuff like MVP measurements is purely regular season.

No one is denying he had some awesome moments, but a few great games/series in the playoffs does not mean more then the rest of his entire career.

[Odogg]

Worthy playoff stats in the Lakers 87 and 88 title years:

87 - 24/6/4/2/1, 59%FG, 18 games
88 - 21/6/4/1/1, 52%FG, 24 games

James knew how to deliver when it was needed most. He understand that playoffs were what mattered at the end of the day.

[Odogg]

Here's where I disagree- while Worthy was clearly the 3rd fiddle for the ring in 85 (which was Kareem's last hurrah as a top player), by 87 he was arguably the 2nd fiddle (e.g. he led the team in scoring in the playoffs) and by 88 he was most definitely 2nd in command. At this stage of the list this is an important distinction.

Regardless of how you'd like to classify the rings he won, his overall play doesn't warrant consideration yet. He was a 7 time all star with a fmvp, but he never was one of the elite players in the league as the highest he ever finished in MVP voting was 12th, though always being near the league leaders for attempts and percentages he never finished in the top 10 for scoring, and he wasn't much of a defensive player. He never had the impact that Wallace, Rodman, Wilkins, hill, McGrady, etc had and with only 12 seasons played, his relatively short career isn't winning him any brownie points either

His career went to crap without Magic. Part of it was injury but the biggest was that individually he simply was not an elite player.

He was also in his 30s with a lot of mileage.

[Odogg]

I revised my post, I meant to say you ALSO need to look at playoffs in Worthy's case. Stuff like MVP measurements is purely regular season.

No one is denying he had some awesome moments, but a few great games/series in the playoffs does not mean more then the rest of his entire career.

21/5/3/1/1 54% over 143 playoff games, that's more than a few games.

[wailuaFC]

Worthy playoff stats in the Lakers 87 and 88 title years:

87 - 24/6/4/2/1, 59%FG, 18 games
88 - 21/6/4/1/1, 52%FG, 24 games

James knew how to deliver when it was needed most. He understand that playoffs were what mattered at the end of the day.

Well if all it takes is a couple of decent playoffs, why not melo?
09-10 31/9/3
10-11 26/10/5
Once again, no one denies he had good playoff series it's the rest of his career that's holding him back.

[Odogg]

Worthy playoff stats in the Lakers 87 and 88 title years:

87 - 24/6/4/2/1, 59%FG, 18 games
88 - 21/6/4/1/1, 52%FG, 24 games

James knew how to deliver when it was needed most. He understand that playoffs were what mattered at the end of the day.

Well if all it takes is a couple of decent playoffs, why not melo?
09-10 31/9/3
10-11 26/10/5
Once again, no one denies he had good playoff series it's the rest of his career that's holding him back.

Worthy played in 143 playoff games, Melo 66 (most of which were first round nbatv games).

[wailuaFC]

Worthy playoff stats in the Lakers 87 and 88 title years:

87 - 24/6/4/2/1, 59%FG, 18 games
88 - 21/6/4/1/1, 52%FG, 24 games

James knew how to deliver when it was needed most. He understand that playoffs were what mattered at the end of the day.

Well if all it takes is a couple of decent playoffs, why not melo?
09-10 31/9/3
10-11 26/10/5
Once again, no one denies he had good playoff series it's the rest of his career that's holding him back.

Worthy played in 143 playoff games, Melo 66 (most of which were first round nbatv games).

So what you're saying is we should look at a bigger sample size to get a more accurate feel of what they did? Like looking at ~1000 games for worthy instead of ~150?

[Odogg]

You said Worthy only did well in a few playoff games. 143 games is more than a few. I already posted his career playoff avgs.

Regular season and playoffs should be part of the sample, and playoffs should be weighted more.

[wailuaFC]

You said Worthy only did well in a few playoff games. 143 games is more than a few. I already posted his career playoff avgs.

Regular season and playoffs should be part of the sample, and playoffs should be weighted more.

Yes playoffs should matter, but that's your entire argument. You're literally ignoring 90% of his career, and even the 10% that you're focusing on isn't even as high of a peak as players like Wilkins, pau, zo, etc had. Sorry there just isn't an argument for him yet

[Odogg]

I wasn't pushing him over Pau and Zo, and I still need to look closer at Wilkins, but if guys like English and TMac are being considered, Worthy most definitely should be.

[vcsgrizzfan]

I wasn't pushing him over Pau and Zo, and I still need to look closer at Wilkins, but if guys like English and TMac are being considered, Worthy most definitely should be.

I also it's time for him now.

[vcsgrizzfan]

PER favors Billups over Wallace....but that isn't the deciding factor.

Big freaking deal. PER matters on the offensive side of the ball, but doesn't mean much on the defensive end as you know.

That team suffocated you defensively and the unquestioned leader of that defense was Ben.

Not debating the defensive part. Ben definitely did that. Billups was a damn good defensive player in his own right while Ben was just a huge liability his entire career offensively.

Chauncey was very replaceable on that team. Ben wasn't. He anchored what made them successful - defense.

And inability to score and create a shot doesn't necessarily make you a complete offensive liability. Ben certainly was not. His offensive boarding and huge number of tapouts that led to additional offensive possessions was very important. He was also an extremely intelligent and effective screen setter, another skill that gets consistently overlooked.

Haven't even bothered to check, but I'm guessing his offensive rating during his peak years is probably considerably better than you would guess. And since the offensive rating stat is based on 100 possessions, that won't even give him credit for the significant number of additional possessions he created. Poor Ben!!