vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Pau did more with less in Memphis and was a key guy in two rings.
Iffa, woulda, coulda but no way in hell do the Lakers win those two rings with Zo instead of Pau. You hugely underestimate Pau's impact on winning and overestimate Zo's.
My position isn't pro-Zo or anti-Pau. I just disagree with the notion that Pau was clearly superior offensively because the stats do not reflect that. Neither guy was a big time scorer at their peaks, which would have widened the gap between them on that side of the ball....atleast in my opinion.
Defensively, while having a tendency to be a bit undisciplined, was one of the best defenders of his time.
I disagree that Zo is near Pau offensively. He was a much poorer passer, turned it over far more and had a much more limited skill set which made him less adaptable. His offensive IQ was lower as evidenced by things as elementary as screen setting. Pau could play inside, at the top of the key, or pretty much anywhere inside the three point line and be effective. That simply wasn't the case with Zo.
I get that. But what I'm referring to is that even with all of those advantages, Pau topped out at 20.8 ppg and only averaged 20 ppg twice in his career. Mourning hit that mark 6 times In 8 years and then fell ill.
From a total production standpoint, I don't see Pau >>>>> Zo, but rather Pau >> Zo.
y2ktors wrote:
My position isn't pro-Zo or anti-Pau. I just disagree with the notion that Pau was clearly superior offensively because the stats do not reflect that. Neither guy was a big time scorer at their peaks, which would have widened the gap between them on that side of the ball....atleast in my opinion.
Defensively, while having a tendency to be a bit undisciplined, was one of the best defenders of his time.
I disagree that Zo is near Pau offensively. He was a much poorer passer, turned it over far more and had a much more limited skill set which made him less adaptable. His offensive IQ was lower as evidenced by things as elementary as screen setting. Pau could play inside, at the top of the key, or pretty much anywhere inside the three point line and be effective. That simply wasn't the case with Zo.
I get that. But what I'm referring to is that even with all of those advantages, Pau topped out at 20.8 ppg and only averaged 20 ppg twice in his career. Mourning hit that mark 6 times In 8 years and then fell ill.
From a total production standpoint, I don't see Pau >>>>> Zo, but rather Pau >> Zo.
Adaptability and the ability to play in multiple roles and situations matters. It's part of what makes Pau a special player.
With respect to offensive production, their scoring differential is pretty minimal.
Conversely though, Pau has a significant advantage when you factor in assists and more so again when you factor in TOs. Those are completely lost possessions and combined with the assist differential matter much more than you seem to think.
Assuming we give say...2.2 points per assist to both players, that gets their points directly created per game to:
Zo - 24.4 ppg
Pau - 26.6 ppg
If we take approximately 1.1 points away for each turnover (which is about average for these two per possession) we come to:
Zo - 20.9 ppg
Pau - 24.2 ppg
So from an around-about way of looking at offensive possession statistics, Pau at his best created about 3.3 points per game more offense than did Zo. Over those same eight years, from an offensive/defensive rating standpoint, they compare like this:
Zo - 108 to 100 (+8) includes 1 season leading the league in defensive rating
Pau - 117 to 104 (+13) includes 1 season leading the league in offensive rating (this surprised me...he was 126/105 in 08-09...wow!)
Same 8 years for other advanced stats:
Zo - 22.4 PER - 70.5 WS (.178/48) - 21.4 VORP
Pau - 22.5 PER - 82.2 WS (.195/48) - 33.3 VORP
I'll agree that Pau has the advantage over Zo, to me it's not as clear cut as Grizz makes it out to be on the offensive end. Pau was more versatile than Shaq too, but that doesn't make him the better offensive contributor. I voted for Zo because he was a local product, and Pau has spent most of his career on a pair of teams I enjoy seeing fail (Lakers & Bulls)....so fuck him.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Assuming we give say...2.2 points per assist to both players, that gets their points directly created per game to:
Zo - 24.4 ppg
Pau - 26.6 ppg
If we take approximately 1.1 points away for each turnover (which is about average for these two per possession) we come to:
Zo - 20.9 ppg
Pau - 24.2 ppg
So from an around-about way of looking at offensive possession statistics, Pau at his best created about 3.3 points per game more offense than did Zo. Over those same eight years, from an offensive/defensive rating standpoint, they compare like this:
Zo - 108 to 100 (+8) includes 1 season leading the league in defensive rating
Pau - 117 to 104 (+13) includes 1 season leading the league in offensive rating (this surprised me...he was 126/105 in 08-09...wow!)
Same 8 years for other advanced stats:
Zo - 22.4 PER - 70.5 WS (.178/48) - 21.4 VORP
Pau - 22.5 PER - 82.2 WS (.195/48) - 33.3 VORP
I'll agree that Pau has the advantage over Zo, to me it's not as clear cut as Grizz makes it out to be on the offensive end. Pau was more versatile than Shaq too, but that doesn't make him the better offensive contributor. I voted for Zo because he was a local product, and Pau has spent most of his career on a pair of teams I enjoy seeing fail (Lakers & Bulls)....so fuck him.
Assuming we give say...2.2 points per assist to both players, that gets their points directly created per game to:
Zo - 24.4 ppg
Pau - 26.6 ppg
If we take approximately 1.1 points away for each turnover (which is about average for these two per possession) we come to:
Zo - 20.9 ppg
Pau - 24.2 ppg
So from an around-about way of looking at offensive possession statistics, Pau at his best created about 3.3 points per game more offense than did Zo. Over those same eight years, from an offensive/defensive rating standpoint, they compare like this:
Zo - 108 to 100 (+8) includes 1 season leading the league in defensive rating
Pau - 117 to 104 (+13) includes 1 season leading the league in offensive rating (this surprised me...he was 126/105 in 08-09...wow!)
Same 8 years for other advanced stats:
Zo - 22.4 PER - 70.5 WS (.178/48) - 21.4 VORP
Pau - 22.5 PER - 82.2 WS (.195/48) - 33.3 VORP
I'll agree that Pau has the advantage over Zo, to me it's not as clear cut as Grizz makes it out to be on the offensive end. Pau was more versatile than Shaq too, but that doesn't make him the better offensive contributor. I voted for Zo because he was a local product, and Pau has spent most of his career on a pair of teams I enjoy seeing fail (Lakers & Bulls)....so fuck him.
Don't blame me. It's people from this very board that have driven me in that direction.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
y2ktors wrote:Voting for candidates to be added will begin now and end at 10 PM CST. Vote for TWO candidates to be added to the ballot for round 36.
Dominique Wilkins - 4
Alex English - 2
Tracy McGrady - 1
I nominate curry and Melo.
Nominations are closed for this round due to voting having begun for the next round. However, those two should be discussed along with the 4 players that I mentioned a few posts ago.
y2ktors wrote:Voting for candidates to be added will begin now and end at 10 PM CST. Vote for TWO candidates to be added to the ballot for round 36.
Dominique Wilkins - 4
Alex English - 2
Tracy McGrady - 1
I nominate curry and Melo.
Nominations are closed for this round due to voting having begun for the next round. However, those two should be discussed along with the 4 players that I mentioned a few posts ago.
you're wrong for that one. 
