Robceltsfan wrote:Ray Allen, as the best player on his team, had 3 seasons of 10+ win shares. Miller had 11 such seasons.
I'm not saying to completely discount Allen's time in Boston and Miami, but he was the 3rd option in Boston, and simply a spot-up shooting role player in Miami.
Miller had FAR MORE team success as "the man" than Ray Allen did. That is not up for debate.
Wait. So Miller gets credit for having the better teams... but Allen gets ripped for having the better teams.
Makes sense. Gotcha.
Miller was the go-to guy on his team for basically his entire career. Allen, when in his prime as the go-to guy, led his teams to next to nothing.
Doesn't that have bearing in the discussion? Miller never went "ring chasing".....right?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
King Deez wrote:
Ray allen has him in all statistical categories while being a 10 time all-star to Reggies 5 and also a 2 time NBA champion. Ray is also the greatest 3 point shooter ever.
Ray Allen is all of .5% better from 3 in his career (and he spent a decent portion of his career just sitting on the 3-point line waiting for open jumpers).
There is very little gap between Reggie Miller and Ray Allen.....if any at all.
PER: Allen 18.6....Miller 18.4
WS: Allen 145.1....Miller 174.4
VORP: Allen 58.1....Miller 63.2
TS%: Allen 58.0%....Miller 61.4%
The thing is... I always felt like Allen was the more versatile player overall. Better rebounder, better ball handler and passer. I don't know how that translates to his ERPV% on Tuesday nights in temperatures under 27 degrees though...
Yes....Allen averaged 0.9 more RPG and 0.3 more APG for his career. Good for him.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
On the eye test, I thought Ray Allen was a more robust player than Reggie Miller, but it seems like there is information pointing in the other direction (some analytics and possibly playoffs for example), so I'd have to think about it some more.
One oddity that jumped out at me was that Reggie Miller had the highest offensive rating in the NBA three different years.
By the way, I think the win shares thing can probably be attributed to Reggie playing with superior teammates (and thus being associated with teams that had more wins to be shared in the first place) to a large degree.
Edit: Again, Abe stole some things I wanted to say.
Taking a break from the board. Please reference my last post for more details if you are interested.
Bush4Ever wrote:On the eye test, I thought Ray Allen was a more robust player than Reggie Miller, but it seems like there is information pointing in the other direction (some analytics and possibly playoffs for example), so I'd have to think about it some more.
One oddity that jumped out at me was that Reggie Miller had the highest offensive rating in the NBA three different years.
By the way, I think the win shares thing can probably be attributed to Reggie playing with superior teammates (and thus being associated with teams that had more wins to be shared in the first place) to a large degree.
Edit: Again, Abe stole some things I wanted to say.
24 year old Ray Allen....playing alongside prime Glenn Robinson and prime Sam Cassell....got bounced in the first round of the playoffs by 34 year old Reggie Miller playing alongside prime Jalen Rose and a collection of 33-36 year old former all-stars.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Robceltsfan wrote:Ray Allen, as the best player on his team, had 3 seasons of 10+ win shares. Miller had 11 such seasons.
I'm not saying to completely discount Allen's time in Boston and Miami, but he was the 3rd option in Boston, and simply a spot-up shooting role player in Miami.
Miller had FAR MORE team success as "the man" than Ray Allen did. That is not up for debate.
Wait. So Miller gets credit for having the better teams... but Allen gets ripped for having the better teams.
Makes sense. Gotcha.
Miller was the go-to guy on his team for basically his entire career. Allen, when in his prime as the go-to guy, led his teams to next to nothing.
Doesn't that have bearing in the discussion? Miller never went "ring chasing".....right?
It's not like Miller was "leading" the way for dominant teams or anything though. He was on 4 or 5 really good teams in Indiana... including one where it can be argued Jalen Rose was THE guy. And another one where Miller was a 10 ppg designated shooter at the end of his career.
Otherwise, Miller had 9 seasons when Indiana had between 38 and 44 wins.
Miller was the top WS guy on Indy for 13 consecutive seasons. During that time they won ELEVEN playoff series, went to a Finals and two other ECF's. Five of those seasons were a 50-win pace or better.
Allen was the top WS guy for 5 teams in Milwaukee (winning 2 playoff series) and 3 teams in Seattle (winning 1 playoff series).
That's a WIDE gap of team success.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Bush4Ever wrote:On the eye test, I thought Ray Allen was a more robust player than Reggie Miller, but it seems like there is information pointing in the other direction (some analytics and possibly playoffs for example), so I'd have to think about it some more.
One oddity that jumped out at me was that Reggie Miller had the highest offensive rating in the NBA three different years.
By the way, I think the win shares thing can probably be attributed to Reggie playing with superior teammates (and thus being associated with teams that had more wins to be shared in the first place) to a large degree.
Edit: Again, Abe stole some things I wanted to say.
24 year old Ray Allen....playing alongside prime Glenn Robinson and prime Sam Cassell....got bounced in the first round of the playoffs by 34 year old Reggie Miller playing alongside prime Jalen Rose and a collection of 33-36 year old former all-stars.
"Prime" Glenn Robinson is an interesting angle. The thing with Robinson is that he never improved his game... that was his fatal flaw. He got that big contract and was essentially the same player as a rookie that he was in his 8th season. Is that one long career of only "prime" seasons? Or, was he a good but not great NBA player who sorta coasted during his career?
Robceltsfan wrote:Miller was the top WS guy on Indy for 13 consecutive seasons. During that time they won ELEVEN playoff series, went to a Finals and two other ECF's. Five of those seasons were a 50-win pace or better.
Allen was the top WS guy for 5 teams in Milwaukee (winning 2 playoff series) and 3 teams in Seattle (winning 1 playoff series).
That's a WIDE gap of team success.
2 rings and put up similar if not better stats, imagine if he was the lead guy for all his teams. We credit people like Walton for a title and absolute shit stats. We cherry pick every round differently.
Robceltsfan wrote:Miller was the top WS guy on Indy for 13 consecutive seasons. During that time they won ELEVEN playoff series, went to a Finals and two other ECF's. Five of those seasons were a 50-win pace or better.
Allen was the top WS guy for 5 teams in Milwaukee (winning 2 playoff series) and 3 teams in Seattle (winning 1 playoff series).
That's a WIDE gap of team success.
And it's ONE stat. Win Shares.
If we want to use only one stat... yeah, you found one that supports your argument. But you know that we can all find our own stats for our own narratives.
Robceltsfan wrote:Miller was the top WS guy on Indy for 13 consecutive seasons. During that time they won ELEVEN playoff series, went to a Finals and two other ECF's. Five of those seasons were a 50-win pace or better.
Allen was the top WS guy for 5 teams in Milwaukee (winning 2 playoff series) and 3 teams in Seattle (winning 1 playoff series).
That's a WIDE gap of team success.
2 rings and put up similar if not better stats, imagine if he was the lead guy for all his teams. We credit people like Walton for a title and absolute shit stats. We cherry pick every round differently.
Deez REALLY REALLY hates Bill Walton.
How many posts has he written where he's ripped on Walton. 100? 300?
Robceltsfan wrote:Miller was the top WS guy on Indy for 13 consecutive seasons. During that time they won ELEVEN playoff series, went to a Finals and two other ECF's. Five of those seasons were a 50-win pace or better.
Allen was the top WS guy for 5 teams in Milwaukee (winning 2 playoff series) and 3 teams in Seattle (winning 1 playoff series).
That's a WIDE gap of team success.
2 rings and put up similar if not better stats, imagine if he was the lead guy for all his teams. We credit people like Walton for a title and absolute shit stats. We cherry pick every round differently.
Similar stats? When? Not in Boston or Miami.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Robceltsfan wrote:Miller was the top WS guy on Indy for 13 consecutive seasons. During that time they won ELEVEN playoff series, went to a Finals and two other ECF's. Five of those seasons were a 50-win pace or better.
Allen was the top WS guy for 5 teams in Milwaukee (winning 2 playoff series) and 3 teams in Seattle (winning 1 playoff series).
That's a WIDE gap of team success.
2 rings and put up similar if not better stats, imagine if he was the lead guy for all his teams. We credit people like Walton for a title and absolute shit stats. We cherry pick every round differently.
Deez REALLY REALLY hates Bill Walton.
How many posts has he written where he's ripped on Walton. 100? 300?
15-20 maybe. I always hated Walton. Annoying as fuck to listen to and he's highly over rated by many
Robceltsfan wrote:Miller was the top WS guy on Indy for 13 consecutive seasons. During that time they won ELEVEN playoff series, went to a Finals and two other ECF's. Five of those seasons were a 50-win pace or better.
Allen was the top WS guy for 5 teams in Milwaukee (winning 2 playoff series) and 3 teams in Seattle (winning 1 playoff series).
That's a WIDE gap of team success.
2 rings and put up similar if not better stats, imagine if he was the lead guy for all his teams. We credit people like Walton for a title and absolute shit stats. We cherry pick every round differently.
Similar stats? When? Not in Boston or Miami.
Really? Career wise yes they have similar stats, why you cherry pick only 1 team or the other now?
Robceltsfan wrote:Miller was the top WS guy on Indy for 13 consecutive seasons. During that time they won ELEVEN playoff series, went to a Finals and two other ECF's. Five of those seasons were a 50-win pace or better.
Allen was the top WS guy for 5 teams in Milwaukee (winning 2 playoff series) and 3 teams in Seattle (winning 1 playoff series).
That's a WIDE gap of team success.
And it's ONE stat. Win Shares.
If we want to use only one stat... yeah, you found one that supports your argument. But you know that we can all find our own stats for our own narratives.
Win shares shows contribution to the team.
It shows that Miller was the LEADING contributor on his team for X number of years and Allen was the leading contributor for Y number of years.
I'm not using WS to compare the two statistically, I'm using it to compare their contribution to successful teams. Miller was the #1 contributor on some very successful teams.
NOTE: Allen was the leading WS guy in 07-08 for Boston with Garnett missing a large number of games. Otherwise he was #3 on those squads when they were together.....and less than that in Miami.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Robceltsfan wrote:
24 year old Ray Allen....playing alongside prime Glenn Robinson and prime Sam Cassell....got bounced in the first round of the playoffs by 34 year old Reggie Miller playing alongside prime Jalen Rose and a collection of 33-36 year old former all-stars.
Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell aren't exactly dealbreakers when going up against a team with significantly more depth and coherence (and Jalen Rose, who was at least a reasonably equivalent player to both).
They won the series 3-2, with two of those wins by one and three points.
If that series is a feather in his hat...it's a reallllyyyyy small one IMO.
Taking a break from the board. Please reference my last post for more details if you are interested.
King Deez wrote:
2 rings and put up similar if not better stats, imagine if he was the lead guy for all his teams. We credit people like Walton for a title and absolute shit stats. We cherry pick every round differently.
Similar stats? When? Not in Boston or Miami.
Really? Career wise yes they have similar stats, why you cherry pick only 1 team or the other now?
What? I'm comparing what the two did as their teams' BEST PLAYER.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Robceltsfan wrote:
Similar stats? When? Not in Boston or Miami.
Really? Career wise yes they have similar stats, why you cherry pick only 1 team or the other now?
What? I'm comparing what the two did as their teams' BEST PLAYER.
K, then Ray has Reggie as their teams best player averaging what 25 a game for Seattle and milwaukee while averaging 4.5 to 5 assists a game and 4.5 to 5 boards a game. Reggie averaging 3 assists and maybe 3 boards a game while scoring less
King Deez wrote:
2 rings and put up similar if not better stats, imagine if he was the lead guy for all his teams. We credit people like Walton for a title and absolute shit stats. We cherry pick every round differently.
Deez REALLY REALLY hates Bill Walton.
How many posts has he written where he's ripped on Walton. 100? 300?
15-20 maybe. I always hated Walton. Annoying as fuck to listen to and he's highly over rated by many
