2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #17

[elmouse03]

Barkley's 76ers
-----------------

1989: Lost 3-0 as a 7 seed
1990: Lost to Jordan's Bulls
1991: Lost to Jordan's Bulls
1992: missed playoffs as team was blown up

Barkley's Suns/Rockets
--------------------

1993: Lost to Jordan's Bulls
1994: Lost to Dream's Rockets
1995: Lost to Dream's Rockets
1996: Lost as a 7 seed
1997: Lost to the Jazz
1998: Lost as an 8 seed
1999: Lost to Shaq's Lakers

That's not exactly a clear cut path to a championship.

Fixed it for ya

[elmouse03]

So does Barkley fall in that line of guys who never won a title but you believe was/is good enough to lead you to a title if given the right pieces around him?

Not saying his 93-95 suns weren't bad. They did win 62, 56, and 59 games.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Just a shout out to AbeVigodaLive and Robceltsfan for some absolutely outstanding posts in this thread. I'm kind of busy and can't post that much right now but some of your posts in this thread were truly outstanding.

Well done gentlemen.

[Deez]

Move on, this round is over

[Y2K]

So does Barkley fall in that line of guys who never won a title but you believe was/is good enough to lead you to a title if given the right pieces around him?

Not saying his 93-95 suns weren't bad. They did win 62, 56, and 59 games.

Basically, there had to be a winner and a loser in his first 3 years with Phoenix. He just happened to be the loser All 3 times, even though they were good enough to win a championship.

[Y2K]

The round is officially over. Nominations for candidates to be added to next round's ballot will begin. You'll have 24 HRS to Vote for TWO of the following players:

Steve Nash - 5

Patrick Ewing - 7

Clyde Drexler - 7

Allen Iverson - 1

Dominique Wilkins -

[thedangerouskitchen]

But Kobe was a superior scorer to Pip, even as Pip had someone else to take the burden of scoring off of him in many years. He just didn't evolve into an elite scorer and scoring is heavily weighted when doing these comparisons.

...except when it comes to Russell and Magic, and a few others (there's that inconsistency again).

Also, Defense is grossly under-rated on this board (except when it comes to Russell), even though Defense is half the game and Pippen was easily a Top 5 perimeter defender ever (clearly and certainly superior to Kobe). Scottie was also a superior Rebounder and Playmaker/Facilitator/Team Player.

Magic was a POINT GUARD that scored 19 ppg and dished out 11 assists. For his role, that's great scoring output and elite offensive impact.

Bill Russell was THE revolutionary defensive player. He could guard any position on the floor, play in space like a wing and guard the paint like a 7 footer. I can't think of a player who could do that other than Hakeem and even he couldn't cover the same ground as Russell. As great as Scottie was as a defensive player, he couldn't have the same impact on an entire defense as Russell did. However, if Russell was a big time scorer, he'd probably have a much stronger case for GOAT.

Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to have the same level of impact as a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James.

You grossly underestimate the Value of Pippen's Defense... he can AND DID have that sort of impact on Defense (see 98 ECF, 97 and 98 Finals, just off the top of my head). Also, I think it's safe to say that Russell guarded Guards about as often as Pippen defended PF, and I'd like to see some evidence of Russ checking Guards the entire length of the court. In other words I think you're embellishing Russ' Defense just a bit.

Scottie was a MUCH better Offensive player than Russell, but that doesn't matter because of Russell's Defense. On the flipside Scottie was vastly superior to Magic on Defense, but that doesn't count because Magic averaged 11 Assists.

Can't you see what's wrong with that picture? Again, when it comes to Scottie we just pick-and-choose any random, arbitrary criteria out of the air. There's no consistency.

And what about Russell and Magic... did they score enough to have the same impact as Kobe or LeBron?

[Y2K]

...except when it comes to Russell and Magic, and a few others (there's that inconsistency again).

Also, Defense is grossly under-rated on this board (except when it comes to Russell), even though Defense is half the game and Pippen was easily a Top 5 perimeter defender ever (clearly and certainly superior to Kobe). Scottie was also a superior Rebounder and Playmaker/Facilitator/Team Player.

Magic was a POINT GUARD that scored 19 ppg and dished out 11 assists. For his role, that's great scoring output and elite offensive impact.

Bill Russell was THE revolutionary defensive player. He could guard any position on the floor, play in space like a wing and guard the paint like a 7 footer. I can't think of a player who could do that other than Hakeem and even he couldn't cover the same ground as Russell. As great as Scottie was as a defensive player, he couldn't have the same impact on an entire defense as Russell did. However, if Russell was a big time scorer, he'd probably have a much stronger case for GOAT.

Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to have the same level of impact as a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James.

You grossly underestimate the Value of Pippen's Defense... he can AND DID have that sort of impact on Defense (see 98 ECF, 97 and 98 Finals, just off the top of my head). Also, I think it's safe to say that Russell guarded Guards about as often as Pippen defended PF, and I'd like to see some evidence of Russ checking Guards the entire length of the court. In other words I think you're embellishing Russ' Defense just a bit.

Scottie was a MUCH better Offensive player than Russell, but that doesn't matter because of Russell's Defense. On the flipside Scottie was vastly superior to Magic on Defense, but that doesn't count because Magic averaged 11 Assists.

Can't you see what's wrong with that picture? Again, when it comes to Scottie we just pick-and-choose any random, arbitrary criteria out of the air. There's no consistency.

And what about Russell and Magic... did they score enough to have the same impact as Kobe or LeBron?

Yes, they did, but most importantly their overall game was more impactful on winning and losing, hence the multitude MVP awards won by both, while Scottie's best season as a #1 was a distant 3rd place finish for MVP. You can't discount that in no way, shape or form. Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to be on their level.

[Master Spade]

...except when it comes to Russell and Magic, and a few others (there's that inconsistency again).

Also, Defense is grossly under-rated on this board (except when it comes to Russell), even though Defense is half the game and Pippen was easily a Top 5 perimeter defender ever (clearly and certainly superior to Kobe). Scottie was also a superior Rebounder and Playmaker/Facilitator/Team Player.

Magic was a POINT GUARD that scored 19 ppg and dished out 11 assists. For his role, that's great scoring output and elite offensive impact.

Bill Russell was THE revolutionary defensive player. He could guard any position on the floor, play in space like a wing and guard the paint like a 7 footer. I can't think of a player who could do that other than Hakeem and even he couldn't cover the same ground as Russell. As great as Scottie was as a defensive player, he couldn't have the same impact on an entire defense as Russell did. However, if Russell was a big time scorer, he'd probably have a much stronger case for GOAT.

Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to have the same level of impact as a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James.

You grossly underestimate the Value of Pippen's Defense... he can AND DID have that sort of impact on Defense (see 98 ECF, 97 and 98 Finals, just off the top of my head). Also, I think it's safe to say that Russell guarded Guards about as often as Pippen defended PF, and I'd like to see some evidence of Russ checking Guards the entire length of the court. In other words I think you're embellishing Russ' Defense just a bit.

Scottie was a MUCH better Offensive player than Russell, but that doesn't matter because of Russell's Defense. On the flipside Scottie was vastly superior to Magic on Defense, but that doesn't count because Magic averaged 11 Assists.

Can't you see what's wrong with that picture? Again, when it comes to Scottie we just pick-and-choose any random, arbitrary criteria out of the air. There's no consistency.

And what about Russell and Magic... did they score enough to have the same impact as Kobe or LeBron?

This video from a game in 95' shows the value of Pippen's Defense. He completely shut down PF Charles Barkley in the 2nd half! In the first half, Sir Charles Destroyed the Bulls post players! But it wasn't just his defense!


[youtube]7SGe-vp_l8U[/youtube]

[elmouse03]

Pippen was a better perimeter defender then post one. His defense on the likes of Magic Johnson in the 91 finals and Mark Jackson in the 98 ECF's gets more notoriety then probably any other performance in his career.

[americaninfidel]

The round is officially over. Nominations for candidates to be added to next round's ballot will begin. Vote for TWO of the following players:

Steve Nash -

Patrick Ewing -

Clyde Drexler -

Allen Iverson -

Dominique Wilkins -

Do we vote here, or will there be a separate thread?

[Y2K]

The round is officially over. Nominations for candidates to be added to next round's ballot will begin. Vote for TWO of the following players:

Steve Nash -

Patrick Ewing -

Clyde Drexler -

Allen Iverson -

Dominique Wilkins -

Do we vote here, or will there be a separate thread?

We can vote here.

[Y2K]

Magic was a POINT GUARD that scored 19 ppg and dished out 11 assists. For his role, that's great scoring output and elite offensive impact.

Bill Russell was THE revolutionary defensive player. He could guard any position on the floor, play in space like a wing and guard the paint like a 7 footer. I can't think of a player who could do that other than Hakeem and even he couldn't cover the same ground as Russell. As great as Scottie was as a defensive player, he couldn't have the same impact on an entire defense as Russell did. However, if Russell was a big time scorer, he'd probably have a much stronger case for GOAT.

Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to have the same level of impact as a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James.

You grossly underestimate the Value of Pippen's Defense... he can AND DID have that sort of impact on Defense (see 98 ECF, 97 and 98 Finals, just off the top of my head). Also, I think it's safe to say that Russell guarded Guards about as often as Pippen defended PF, and I'd like to see some evidence of Russ checking Guards the entire length of the court. In other words I think you're embellishing Russ' Defense just a bit.

Scottie was a MUCH better Offensive player than Russell, but that doesn't matter because of Russell's Defense. On the flipside Scottie was vastly superior to Magic on Defense, but that doesn't count because Magic averaged 11 Assists.

Can't you see what's wrong with that picture? Again, when it comes to Scottie we just pick-and-choose any random, arbitrary criteria out of the air. There's no consistency.

And what about Russell and Magic... did they score enough to have the same impact as Kobe or LeBron?

This video from a game in 95' shows the value of Pippen's Defense. He completely shut down PF Charles Barkley in the 2nd half! In the first half, Sir Charles Destroyed the Bulls post players! But it wasn't just his defense!


[youtube]7SGe-vp_l8U[/youtube]

I remember that game. Hell of a performance by Pip. It's the ability to guard stronger players that propels him over MJ for GOAT perimeter defender.

[Y2K]

I'm voting Ewing and Drexler.

[americaninfidel]

The round is officially over. Nominations for candidates to be added to next round's ballot will begin. Vote for TWO of the following players:

Steve Nash -

Patrick Ewing -

Clyde Drexler -

Allen Iverson -

Dominique Wilkins -

Do we vote here, or will there be a separate thread?

We can vote here.

I vote Iverson and Nash.

[elmouse03]

Ewing and Drexler

[dwcmwa]

Ewing, Drexler easy.

[Master Spade]

You grossly underestimate the Value of Pippen's Defense... he can AND DID have that sort of impact on Defense (see 98 ECF, 97 and 98 Finals, just off the top of my head). Also, I think it's safe to say that Russell guarded Guards about as often as Pippen defended PF, and I'd like to see some evidence of Russ checking Guards the entire length of the court. In other words I think you're embellishing Russ' Defense just a bit.

Scottie was a MUCH better Offensive player than Russell, but that doesn't matter because of Russell's Defense. On the flipside Scottie was vastly superior to Magic on Defense, but that doesn't count because Magic averaged 11 Assists.

Can't you see what's wrong with that picture? Again, when it comes to Scottie we just pick-and-choose any random, arbitrary criteria out of the air. There's no consistency.

And what about Russell and Magic... did they score enough to have the same impact as Kobe or LeBron?

This video from a game in 95' shows the value of Pippen's Defense. He completely shut down PF Charles Barkley in the 2nd half! In the first half, Sir Charles Destroyed the Bulls post players! But it wasn't just his defense!


[youtube]7SGe-vp_l8U[/youtube]

I remember that game. Hell of a performance by Pip. It's the ability to guard stronger players that propels him over MJ for GOAT perimeter defender.

He is most certainly top 2 all time as a Perimeter defender, him and Jordan.

But as the beginning of that video showed, Jordan turned Pippen into a Complete player! What did that video say, something like, Pippen was the Only player that year to lead his team in Every major statistical category? That is complete!

[Odogg]

The NBA seems to be the only sport where rings are held as the holy grail of player evaluation.

Nobody denies players like Bonds, Griffey and Maddux their due in baseball.

Nobody denies Barry Sanders, Dan Marino or Randy Moss their places in history.


Why do basketball players need a ring for confirmation of greatness?

Can impact winning much more.

Also a QB like Marino gets dinged.

[Odogg]

The NBA seems to be the only sport where rings are held as the holy grail of player evaluation.

Nobody denies players like Bonds, Griffey and Maddux their due in baseball.

Nobody denies Barry Sanders, Dan Marino or Randy Moss their places in history.


Why do basketball players need a ring for confirmation of greatness?

Team of the 90s in the MLB and their 1 ring.

Great trio of pitchers none the less.

Gotta go Yanks for team of 90s.