2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #17

[Odogg]

Despite tdks obvious bias vs Kobe and to a lesser extent the Lakers, I shall vote for Pippen.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Hmm, leaning Pippen, but perhaps I need to review Barkley's resume. He had the great 1993 campaign, but does that match Pippen's six Robin rings? Robin rings ain't nothing to sneeze at, and are certainly worth more then the Steve Kerr role player type ring.

"Robin" averaged 22/9/7/48% in the 91-92-93 Finals, along with all-time great Defense.. those numbers are better than Kobe and LeBron's first 3 Finals, FWIW.

Very nice stats. However, from 1994 on, he was very underwhelming on offense during the postseason. From 1994-03, Pip shot over 44% FG once and under 44% FG eight times.

Finals FG%
-------------

1996: 34%

1997: 42%

1998: 41%

Kobe shoots 40% in the Finals for his career... 45% for his career in the regular season.

Again.. where is the consistency insofar as the criteria used to rank players, or do we just pick-and-choose random arbitrary criteria for this guy and a completely different set of criteria for the next guy?

That's the way it appears...

Surely, at the very least, we should be able to identify the Top 2-3-4 criteria for ranking players... criteria that most everyone can agree holds significantly more Value than, for example, the FG% of a player in the second-half of his career?

[Titan18]

No Tippin Pippin

[thedangerouskitchen]

Despite tdks obvious bias vs Kobe and to a lesser extent the Lakers, I shall vote for Pippen.

This might come as a shock to you but using my criteria to rank players (which I try to use consistently across the board with all players), I actually have Kobe ahead of Pippen on the all-time list.

[Odogg]

I think you had kobe around 13? Where do you have LeInjection?

[thedangerouskitchen]

I think you had kobe around 13? Where do you have LeInjection?

Behind Kobe and ahead of Pippen - and I have Pippen Top 20-25 all-time...

[Y2K]

"Robin" averaged 22/9/7/48% in the 91-92-93 Finals, along with all-time great Defense.. those numbers are better than Kobe and LeBron's first 3 Finals, FWIW.

Very nice stats. However, from 1994 on, he was very underwhelming on offense during the postseason. From 1994-03, Pip shot over 44% FG once and under 44% FG eight times.

Finals FG%
-------------

1996: 34%

1997: 42%

1998: 41%

Kobe shoots 40% in the Finals for his career... 45% for his career in the regular season.

Again.. where is the consistency insofar as the criteria used to rank players, or do we just pick-and-choose random arbitrary criteria for this guy and a completely different set of criteria for the next guy?

That's the way it appears...

Surely, at the very least, we should be able to identify the Top 2-3-4 criteria for ranking players... criteria that most everyone can agree holds significantly more Value than, for example, the FG% of a player in the second-half of his career?

But Kobe was a superior scorer to Pip, even as Pip had someone else to take the burden of scoring off of him in many years. He just didn't evolve into an elite scorer and scoring is heavily weighted when doing these comparisons.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Very nice stats. However, from 1994 on, he was very underwhelming on offense during the postseason. From 1994-03, Pip shot over 44% FG once and under 44% FG eight times.

Finals FG%
-------------

1996: 34%

1997: 42%

1998: 41%

Kobe shoots 40% in the Finals for his career... 45% for his career in the regular season.

Again.. where is the consistency insofar as the criteria used to rank players, or do we just pick-and-choose random arbitrary criteria for this guy and a completely different set of criteria for the next guy?

That's the way it appears...

Surely, at the very least, we should be able to identify the Top 2-3-4 criteria for ranking players... criteria that most everyone can agree holds significantly more Value than, for example, the FG% of a player in the second-half of his career?

But Kobe was a superior scorer to Pip, even as Pip had someone else to take the burden of scoring off of him in many years. He just didn't evolve into an elite scorer and scoring is heavily weighted when doing these comparisons.

...except when it comes to Russell and Magic, and a few others (there's that inconsistency again).

Also, Defense is grossly under-rated on this board (except when it comes to Russell), even though Defense is half the game and Pippen was easily a Top 5 perimeter defender ever (clearly and certainly superior to Kobe). Scottie was also a superior Rebounder and Playmaker/Facilitator/Team Player.

[dwcmwa]

Has Dominique Wilkins been nominated yet? If not I choose that guy.

Players who have been chosen to be nominated:

Ewing

Wilkins

Iverson

Drexler

McHale, Kidd, Nash, Payton, Gervin are some other nominees to think about once we get past 20.

[Master Spade]

I'll pick Barkley in this round.

People need to remember that he was a Beast! He was a Beast as a Scorer and Rebounder!
Then also remember that while he did Play PF, he was listed at 6'-6", which means he was really closer to 6'-4". Even being that short, he was battling down low with the Big Boys, and HE was getting that rebound and Dunking in their face!

[AbeVigodaLive]

Has Dominique Wilkins been nominated yet? If not I choose that guy.

Players who have been chosen to be nominated:

Ewing

Wilkins

Iverson

Drexler

I nominated Nash.

If we're discussing ANY of those other guys... Nash deserves to be in the discussion.

[Bush4Ever]

Barkley was one of the most supremely athletic players to ever play the game.

People grossly underestimate his athleticism because he was fat.

But to have that explosive of leaping ability with that level of agility at that height/weight....unreal.

Core strength off-the-charts.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Barkley was one of the most supremely athletic players to ever play the game.

People grossly underestimate his athleticism because he was fat.

But to have that explosive of leaping ability with that level of agility at that height/weight....unreal.

Core strength off-the-charts.

One of my favorite "Holy shitballs, did I see that?" plays...

[Deez]

Sir Charles

[Y2K]

Kobe shoots 40% in the Finals for his career... 45% for his career in the regular season.

Again.. where is the consistency insofar as the criteria used to rank players, or do we just pick-and-choose random arbitrary criteria for this guy and a completely different set of criteria for the next guy?

That's the way it appears...

Surely, at the very least, we should be able to identify the Top 2-3-4 criteria for ranking players... criteria that most everyone can agree holds significantly more Value than, for example, the FG% of a player in the second-half of his career?

But Kobe was a superior scorer to Pip, even as Pip had someone else to take the burden of scoring off of him in many years. He just didn't evolve into an elite scorer and scoring is heavily weighted when doing these comparisons.

...except when it comes to Russell and Magic, and a few others (there's that inconsistency again).

Also, Defense is grossly under-rated on this board (except when it comes to Russell), even though Defense is half the game and Pippen was easily a Top 5 perimeter defender ever (clearly and certainly superior to Kobe). Scottie was also a superior Rebounder and Playmaker/Facilitator/Team Player.

Magic was a POINT GUARD that scored 19 ppg and dished out 11 assists. For his role, that's great scoring output and elite offensive impact.

Bill Russell was THE revolutionary defensive player. He could guard any position on the floor, play in space like a wing and guard the paint like a 7 footer. I can't think of a player who could do that other than Hakeem and even he couldn't cover the same ground as Russell. As great as Scottie was as a defensive player, he couldn't have the same impact on an entire defense as Russell did. However, if Russell was a big time scorer, he'd probably have a much stronger case for GOAT.

Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to have the same level of impact as a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James.

[elmouse03]

But Kobe was a superior scorer to Pip, even as Pip had someone else to take the burden of scoring off of him in many years. He just didn't evolve into an elite scorer and scoring is heavily weighted when doing these comparisons.

...except when it comes to Russell and Magic, and a few others (there's that inconsistency again).

Also, Defense is grossly under-rated on this board (except when it comes to Russell), even though Defense is half the game and Pippen was easily a Top 5 perimeter defender ever (clearly and certainly superior to Kobe). Scottie was also a superior Rebounder and Playmaker/Facilitator/Team Player.

Magic was a POINT GUARD that scored 19 ppg and dished out 11 assists. For his role, that's great scoring output and elite offensive impact.

Bill Russell was THE revolutionary defensive player. He could guard any position on the floor, play in space like a wing and guard the paint like a 7 footer. I can't think of a player who could do that other than Hakeem and even he couldn't cover the same ground as Russell. As great as Scottie was as a defensive player, he couldn't have the same impact on an entire defense as Russell did.

Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to have the same level of impact as a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James.

Pippen was a legit #2 guy. Maybe the greatest legit sidekick in the history of the game.

[Bush4Ever]

I'm not sure why people are getting the idea of overall value confused with the *composition* of that overall value.

The bottom line is how much a player contributes to the bottom line of winning games.

That can literally take an infinite number of forms and breakdowns.

For example, I've said a few times in illustrating this principle that a player who blocked 30 shots a game and did nothing else would still be the greatest player in the history of the game.

Guys like Russell and Magic contributed more to the bottom line than Pippen did...it's just that the way in which they did so was slightly unusual, especially in Russell's case.

[Deez]

...except when it comes to Russell and Magic, and a few others (there's that inconsistency again).

Also, Defense is grossly under-rated on this board (except when it comes to Russell), even though Defense is half the game and Pippen was easily a Top 5 perimeter defender ever (clearly and certainly superior to Kobe). Scottie was also a superior Rebounder and Playmaker/Facilitator/Team Player.

Magic was a POINT GUARD that scored 19 ppg and dished out 11 assists. For his role, that's great scoring output and elite offensive impact.

Bill Russell was THE revolutionary defensive player. He could guard any position on the floor, play in space like a wing and guard the paint like a 7 footer. I can't think of a player who could do that other than Hakeem and even he couldn't cover the same ground as Russell. As great as Scottie was as a defensive player, he couldn't have the same impact on an entire defense as Russell did.

Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to have the same level of impact as a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James.

Pippen was a legit #2 guy. Maybe the greatest legit sidekick in the history of the game.

Debatable, I think Kobe might be the greatest sidekick ever.

[Y2K]

...except when it comes to Russell and Magic, and a few others (there's that inconsistency again).

Also, Defense is grossly under-rated on this board (except when it comes to Russell), even though Defense is half the game and Pippen was easily a Top 5 perimeter defender ever (clearly and certainly superior to Kobe). Scottie was also a superior Rebounder and Playmaker/Facilitator/Team Player.

Magic was a POINT GUARD that scored 19 ppg and dished out 11 assists. For his role, that's great scoring output and elite offensive impact.

Bill Russell was THE revolutionary defensive player. He could guard any position on the floor, play in space like a wing and guard the paint like a 7 footer. I can't think of a player who could do that other than Hakeem and even he couldn't cover the same ground as Russell. As great as Scottie was as a defensive player, he couldn't have the same impact on an entire defense as Russell did.

Scottie Pippen just didn't score enough to have the same level of impact as a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James.

Pippen was a legit #2 guy. Maybe the greatest legit sidekick in the history of the game.

I can agree with this because pretty much, that's just the reality of it. Pippen's overall game was not as impactful as it had to be to be an elite #1 guy.

Because of this, I have to go with Chuck, even though Pippen was probably the better well-rounded player.

[Y2K]

I'm going to nominate Patrick Ewing.

David Robinson is going to show up on your doorstop to beat your ass.