2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #7

[Macrotus]

I think that's true of most Laker fans. Guys who don't have an axe to grind tend to have better takes.

uh...said the Duncan & Lebron fanboi.

Yeah, I'm so sick of Grizz propping up James repeatedly just because he played for his two favorite franchises.

propping up...no....but a lot of excuses.

[elmerjfudd]

LeBron James


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[wailuaFC]

This is why I have a hard time with these lists, Hakeem and lebron were both better basketball players then Kobe, but if given the choice between their careers it'd be an easy choice to take Kobes, so are we voting for legacy or for actual basketball talent?

[Y2K]

This is why I have a hard time with these lists, Hakeem and lebron were both better basketball players then Kobe, but if given the choice between their careers it'd be an easy choice to take Kobes, so are we voting for legacy or for actual basketball talent?

Both....atleast I do. That's what makes it so complex for me in my determining who ranks where.

[FPL]

Dream.. I don't think he'll get much traction here (I'd struggle to put much of a list together of guys I'd draft ahead of him at all, let alone 8 guys post-merger alone, which looks like it'll be the case...anyhow, it's all about the discussion for me, so I don't mind; besides, I have a way out there opinion, and might get banned from a lot of sites for my top 10 list ). A lot of people think the world of his first couple years, and extended offensive peak (92-93 through 95-96), but he's one of the guys for whom context (inb4 excuses) is very important since nobody pays the years between much thought. From his autobiography Living the Dream:

86-87

Spoiler:

Things didn’t work out as I’d planned. In the middle of the 1986-87 season our back court, Lewis Lloyd and Mitchell Wiggins, tested positive for drugs and were banned from the league. John Lucas had been banned the year before. Drugs in the NBA were a real problem.

Worse, a little more than a third of the way into the season Ralph Sampson went down.

Ralph was a big man who could play like a guard and he liked to do it. He could dribble the length of the court, he had one-on-one moves that were unusual for a man his size, he was fast and graceful and agile—and fragile. Not soft, just breakable. Ralph was so tall and had such long legs that his knees, which supported his weight and were called upon to do more twisting and turning than they were designed for, were always vulnerable. His knee finally gave way. His injury was a real tragedy.

Ralph had surgery and went directly into physical therapy and rehabilitation but he was never the same after that. His game relied on his quickness and mobility, his ability to change direction in an instant, and with bad knees that was no longer possible. I felt very sad for him. Before the injury he had been under constant pressure to be consistently great. Afterward it was just a constant struggle just to play at all. Maybe because he had performed so effortlessly, Ralph got the reputation of being lazy. But I was there and I saw, from the inside, that he was just the opposite. He stretched, he trained, he would stay after practice and work with weights. People said he was weak and lazy. No. He was a very hard worker. His problem was that his body betrayed him. It never came back.

With Ralph gone for most of the season and our backcourt decimated, we were in trouble. We needed pliers all over the court and we needed someone in management to look forward and begin putting together the Rockets of the future. Only six months before, the future had looked bright. Now it was clouded with questions.

87-88

Spoiler:

Nineteen games into the 1987-88 season the Rockets traded Ralph Sampson. We could almost see it coming. Ralph’s knee was not perfect and when games got to crunch time Coach Fitch beta playing Jim Petersen in his place.

Ralph and guard Steve Harris were traded to the Golden State Warriors for center Joe Barry Carroll, guard Eric “Sleepy” Floyd, and cash.

The Rockets’ organization didn’t do it gracefully. We had just come back from a road game in Chicago when an older gentleman from the front office came to the airport and told Coach Fitch. They didn’t show Ralph the courtesy of telling him in private. He had been the Rookie of the Year, the All-Star Game MVP, an All-NBA performer for the team, and they gave him no respect. Rather than doing it in a proper setting where he could react to this upsetting news privately, they pulled Ralph aside in the airport lounge where everyone could see and told him he had been traded. I thought that was very cold.

Ralph’s whole career was undermined by expectations that he shouldn’t have had to live up to. Ralph was even more fragile after knee surgery; he certainly wasn’t going to go inside and bang with the power forwards and he had lost some of the mobility that made him such an unusually quick and gaveled big man. And still people wanted him to perform miracles. He should never have been asked to be a post-up center; he wasn’t built for it. He and I complemented each other, and even though we didn’t have a close personal relationship I enjoyed playing with him and we played well together. People who had been on his case from the beginning—media and some fans—called him lazy, didn’t appreciate the things Ralph could do, and instead wanted him to do things he couldn’t. He left Houston without people truly understanding what a good player they had been seeing.

There were rumors that I got Coach Fitch fired, but I liked Coach Fitch, and Coach Fitch knew I liked him; we had a good relationship and I liked his system. Coach Fitch thought of the team first, himself second. You could have a one-on-one confrontation with the coach and that was okay, he didn’t care if you or anyone else liked him. But if you did something that hurt the team he would take you apart. His discipline was firm but he let you know in the beginning that he expected to be obeyed. Just do your job and you had no problem. There were no surprises with Coach Fitch. I thought his values were very strong.

Coach Fitch knew I liked him. At the end of our playoffs he came up and told me, “I’m proud of you. And I deserve a lot of the credit.” He did! He is a proud man and he helped me tremendously by drilling into my mind the work ethic necessary for me to establish myself in the league. I had come in as a number-one draft choice, the first pick in the draft; another coach might have let me coach or might have settled for less than my best. That would have been a disaster; if a new player learns he can do just enough to get by he will never achieve the full power of his potential. That was not going to happen with Coach Fitch, he was going to wring every last drop of ability out of me. I will always appreciate him for that.

88-89

Spoiler:

Back at the Summit the Rockets had traded Rodney McCray and my friend Jim Petersen for rebounding forward Otis Thorpe, and had hired Don Chaney as coach. This was a big change.

Everybody had been complaining about Bill Fitch’s system and they wanted to bring in somebody who was just the opposite. Don Chaney was the other side of Bill Fitch. Don Chaney was a nice guy. Nice guys, as they say, finish last.

Don Chaney had been a guard on Coach Lewis’s great University of Houston teams of the late sixties. He came in and tried to please everybody. It didn’t work. He just couldn’t take charge and make the men do what we were supposed to do. Where it would cost someone money if he so much as dribbled the ball after Coach Fitch blew the whistle, the guys tested Chaney and he didn’t stand up to them. We went from strict to loose, we lost our discipline. Coach Chaney didn’t like confrontation and the guys knew it. From January 1 to the end of the season we played .500 ball. We came in second in the Midwest but were seeded fifth in the Western Conference playoffs and were eliminated in the first round by the Seattle Supersonics. I was disappointed but I wasn’t surprised.

This was the first of the Detroit Piston “Bad Boy” championships.

One key to that Piston team was Isiah Thomas. He was a little guy, listed at 6’1” but maybe not that tall, and he was the best guard in the league at shooting over big men. He had studied all of us and his shot went straight up and dropped. He wasn’t afraid to come into the paint and challenge us-in fact, he came in with confidence-because he had a shot we couldn’t touch. He would come directly at me, I would leap, and he would put it straight up over me and into the basket. I was always just missing. I would think it was luck, that he could not do it again, but every time he came inside he would get the same result. And the higher I jumped, the higher he would shoot it. It was discouraging.

They had a lot of talent on that team-Isiah and Joe Dumars and Vinnie “Microwave” Johnson, John Salley and Dennis Rodman. Their coach, Chuck Daly, was an authoritarian from the same school as Bill Fitch or Pat Riley who could get the most out of his players. He was very good. I respected the Pistons’ skills but there were two players on the squad who were way out of line.

Bill Laimbeer and Rick Mahorn were very dirty players. They tripped you when you were running and fouled you hard when you were coming down the lane just to hurt you, which is not basketball. They played dirty. They didn’t even pretend to be reasonable. They promoted the image of bad boys as if that was something to be proud of. Laimbeer, in particular, was dirty, but he could not fight. But if you heard that Bill Laimbeer was in a fight you didn’t have to ask who caused it; you knew it was Laimbeer.

89-90

Spoiler:

The Rockets did not play well in the 1989-90 season. We went 41-41 and lost again in the fist round of the playoffs to the Lakers. It was the Chicago Bulls’ year. Michael Jordan won his first NBA championship. [Note: Dream is off by a year, Chicago won its first title the next year in 90-91. This is a tremendous passage by Hakeem comparing himself and MJ though, so it warranted inclusion]

Michael Jordan and I came into the NBA at the same time. It didn’t take long for me to realize that this was the greatest player I had ever seen. There may have been greater players before him in the history of the league but I never witnessed them; when I saw Michael Jordan I saw a player strong in all areas.

When I analyze an opponent-or a teammate, for that matter-I try to see their weaknesses. You can break down most players that way. No matter how strong a player is in one area, if he is weak in another you can neutralize him by forcing him to go there again and again. It doesn’t take long to find out. Usually, if one is a good shooter he doesn’t like to drive; if he’s a good driver he can’t shoot. You can use that knowledge. If a player is a weak foul shooter, foul him; if he can’t hit jump shots in the fourth quarter, dare him to beat you by playing loose late in the game; if he is soft to his right, don’t let him go left. If you take away all options except the one a player is weak at you have taken away his game.

But none of that worked with Michael Jordan. Whatever you gave him, he would take it. If you backed off, he would shoot. He would make his shot most of the time, and if he missed it was only because he was human. If you came too close he would go around you. If you gave him the right or the left he would go either way. If there was nothing there, he would create. He could rebound, he p;aged good defense, he was quick with steals. He was strong in all areas; if you let him do anything at all he would beat you. Players liked to play against him because it was a challenge to go up against the best. I gave him the ultimate respect because he was a complete player.

Michael Jordan is a natural athlete. His form is perfect, he has strong basketball basics and fundamentals, and his game is all footwork. At 6’6” he is an in-between player. Most 6’6” players are small forwards; he is a natural guard. That’s why he creates problems-Michael Jordan is a big guard. He does everything guards can do, and much more, with size. He’s as quick as other guards but bigger, so he takes advantage by shooting over them. When he plays bigger guys he’s quicker than they are and has great ball-handling skills, so he beats his man easily, makes the shot and gets fouled. He also has very big hands-big man’s hands. When he shakes your hand you don’t think he’s a guard. He could palm the ball like Dr. J, which made his ball control even greater.

Playing against Michael Jordan is an all-day challenge. The fist thing he does is get you off balance. His fakes are so sharp and real you have to go for them. That’s the difference between Michael Jordan and everybody else: You don’t know what is real and what’s a fake. He can seem to be driving and then pop up for the jumper, or he can seem to be about to shoot and then go right around you for the score. When he fakes, you have to go for it, you can’t lay off him because he can follow through on everything he threatens to do and he can make just about any shot. And he’s so smart that just when you think you’ve got him figured out and he’s faking all the time, all of a sudden he will keep you honest and just explode on you in one motion like you’re not even there.

You have to honor his fakes and respect everything. Other players, you don’t take them seriously. A driver faking a shot, who’s going to go for that? A jump shooter who’s faking to drive, you know this is a fake so you stay with him. And if he does drive you can catch up with him because this is not his game. But Michael Jordan does it all. First, he’s a driver. That’s his first option: to drive. He will flash by you in a moment, so to prevent an easy lay-up you have to try to cut him off when he moves. However if you are quick enough to get in his lane he will pull up and shoot, he has that option. You will be low and off balance, you’ll have used up all your mobility just to get to your spot, and you’ll have to watch him stop and put the ball up because you can’t move. You have to be balanced to jump and he has gotten you off balance. And he will get a lot of points off you because his shot doesn’t miss often.

Michael Jordan is a very creative player; you cannot predict what he is going to do. Even when you think you’ve got his shot blocked at the last minute he will change it. You can never think, Well, I’ve cornered him, I’ve trapped him, there’s nothing there this time. I have forced him into many difficult situations over the years and he has come out of them. Once he’s under the basket, there’s no way for a 6’6” guard to shoot over a man five inches taller than he is. We wait for these kinds of opportunities! But Michael Jordan would come inside and hang in the air. I knew I had him blocked-I could feel the basketball-but he would just hang there. Where most other players would try to force it over me, Jordan would realize there was nowhere to go and *on his way down* take the ball back and pass off-maybe to his man behind the three-point line. I’m coming down, he’s coming down, and he still makes something happen. I thought I had a block, now they’ve got three points.

If a player like Michael Jordan catches me one-on-one outside, I will back off. I’ll give him the jumper rather than have him go by me for an easy inside slam. When I see that he has truly taken off for his jump shot, *then* I will contest it. Even though I don’t have a chance to block it I will run at him just to distract him.

But on top of being physically gifted, Michael Jordan is smart. He won’t settle for an open jumper. Most players will, they like taking open shots. But Michael Jordan is a very intelligent player and he wants better than I’m giving him, so he dribbles toward me. It’s unusual for a guard to dribble *toward* a big man if he wants to shoot a jumper. But this is Michael Jordan. If I’m going to let him shoot I back off some more, and some more, until he’s even closer to the basket and has an even easier shot. I can’t keep giving ground, and with every step backward I’m more off balance. Sooner or later I’ll have to come to him, at which point he can either shoot before I get there or drive around me. It’s a very subtle, very impressive set of decisions he makes.

I understood his game very well because if I were an outside player these are the decisions I would make ,the moves I would use. I’m an in-between player too. When I play against a guy who is almost my size I just post him up; when I play big guys I go outside, make a move, use my fakes, and come at them. I know I can’t do it in the paint but on the outside I have room. I stay on the attack, I don’t let the defender make my decisions for me, I make my own decisions.

One time when Jordan was posting up I even saw him do the Dream Shake. That’s my move, where you fake left in deep toward the basket, shake your man, take a step back, and turn around quickly for a fade-away jumper. I was watching on TV and Jordan got the ball and made the move and it looked so natural that I really couldn’t claim it, he took what the defensive man gave him and used it perfectly. How could I say that was mine? That came naturally out of Michael Jordan.

When he came into the league Michael Jordan was criticized for being selfish. People used to complain all the time that he was shooting too much, twenty-eight times a game, and not getting his teammates involved. I never bought into that premise. Michael Jordan is a team player, he plays to win. When he takes his shot it’s because he thinks he can score. And he can! He was just taking the first responsibility of the offense-creating opportunities. When he gets the ball he can pass of score or finish the play. Early in his career he was doing the work of two or three people, first in bringing the ball downcourt, then either shooting or passing; he was controlling the tempo of the game. And he still does. Inside, outside, he plays guard, he plays forward, he plays center-and he always does damage. I’ve seen big men not even try to stop him, they get out of his way; he explodes on them and they don’t want to get dunked on.

When I look at basketball sometimes I think of animals. Michael Jordan is like a big cat hopping on a rock; as soon as he lands he goes straight up. People think he’s going to a spot on the floor but really the court is just a stepping stone. He gets the ball, hops to a space, and leaps. Against a big, solid seven-footer like Dikembe Mutombo I can play a cat’s game, he doesn’t understand it. Mutombo has to play a big man’s game to be effective, and he usually is. But when the Rockets use our quickness, move up the court, dribble, shoot, he can’t keep up.

When I’ve had success against Michael Jordan it’s been by coming from the weak side and surprising him. I hide behind the Bulls’ center and try not to let Jordan see me. Because I am usually smaller than the opposing center I can get away with this, I can literally hide. Some shot blockers, like Mutombo, want you to see them; they stand tall and large in the paint and turn drivers away with their size. Guards don’t like shot blockers; once they sense you’re around they don’t come in. But I’m not that big, my shot blocking is all timing, not size. I stand behind the center but I’m watching the play on the other side of the court, and as soon as Jordan beats his man I come over. You can’t be too eager, I’ve tried that and it doesn’t work. If I get there too soon he changes hands or alters his shot or dishes off. If I get there too late the shot is gone already. I have to get there at exactly the right time. I study Michael Jordan’s moves to learn when the right time is: it’s when the move is finished and the ball is just being released. *As he is releasing it*. And when I get him-he’s just seen me but it’s too late and he knows I’ve got him; he tries to change the shot but he can’t change this one, he changes it right into my hand-he gets upset.

Michael Jordan’s game is very flashy, but not flashy for show; he’s fun to watch but he’s also very effective. And he is always playing this game to win. He’s a man. A lot of people think he’s just gifted, but he is also very tough mentally. He accepts challenges. If you challenge him you give him a bigger task and he will rise above the competition to complete it. If you surprise him he comes back strong. In a series or in individual games he always takes things to a higher level as the play continues. When I see him go on a tear in the first quarter I always think, Okay, this is going to be tough. You think maybe he will slow down, but no, he will always take his game and raise it. In the fourth quarter, as tired as he might be from having played hard all night, he’s even more intense than when the game began.

Most superstars, if they match up against each other at the same position, neutralize each other. When you put together your game plan you figure that unless someone has an outstanding night, this is a stand-off, the game will be won by the other teammates. But Michael Jordan isn’t neutralized. He’s different. Michael Jordan dominates superstars.

If he were an animal in the jungle Michael Jordan could lie out on the biggest rock and no one would disturb him, no one would attack him. He wouldn’t have to watch his back. All the other animals would wait fearfully; they’d be scared even while he slept. He would stalk his prey and take down anything he wanted. Afterward he would prowl around, full, quiet, peaceful, his tail swinging. IN the NBA, Michael Jordan walks around the jungle freely.

90-91

Spoiler:

In the 1990-91 season the Rockets finally deeded not to be the place where old NBA veterans took their careers to die. We got some new blood.

Kenny Smith, a good shooting guard, arrived from the Atlanta Hawks in a trade for John Lucas and Tim McCormick. I was sorry to see Tim go-he played a good fundamental game, he knew where to go on the court, he rebounded and played hard. But Kenny was a spark we needed.

The year 1990 was the year Vernon Maxwell stepped into the Rockets’ starting lineup full-time. He had come to the team the winter before when the Rockets had bought his contract from the San Antonio Spurs for cash. Vernon was young and wild but he was a player. He put up more than five hundred three-point shots and set an NBA record by making one hundred seventy-two of them He also had a thirty-point *quarter* in a game against Cleveland. Thirty points is a very healthy *game* total. Our team had felt old and dull for several years, but now we were coming to life. With Otis Thorpe and Buck Johnson at forwards and Larry Smith and Sleepy Floyd coming off the bench, we could play.

We took some time getting going, playing near .500 ball until the first of the year. Then, against the Bulls at the Summit, I took a big elbow from their center Bill Cartwright and broke all kinds of bones around my eye. I was out for twenty five games. Fortunately, Larry Smith took over as center and the team came together and went 15-10 while i was on the injured list.

We lost the first game when I came back but then went on a thirteen-game winning streak that included beating Michael Jordan and the Bulls at Chicago Stadium. We finished the season twenty-two games over.500 and beat the Bulls both times we played them. We were looking strong for the playoffs but unfortunately ran into the Lakers, who swept us. It was the fourth year in a row we were knocked out in the first round. That was discouraging but at least the Rockets’ future was looking brighter than it had in several years.

91-92

Spoiler:

We had high hopes for the 1991-92 season but the team never really clicked. Finally, after fifty-two games of mediocre, .500 basketball, Don Chaney was replaced as coach by Rudy Tomjanovich.

Rudy T was a former Rocket, an assistant coach since the Bill Fitch years. He knew how players felt and acted, and he was right in there between the Bill Fitch I-don’t-care-if-you-like-me-or-not school of coaching and the Don Chaney I-want-to-be-everybody’s-friend school. He knew his basketball and he let us play it. Even though we didn’t do much better in the last third of the season than we had in the first two thuds, and we didn’t make the playoffs, having Rudy in charge was a change for the better and a good sign for the Rockets’ future.

Summer 92

Spoiler:

I worked hard that summer I hired a trainer named Charles who helped with my program, and each morning Charles would pick me up and I would run on the beach. I didn’t like running in the sand, it was tough on me, but it was worthwhile, building up endurance. I would eat a light lunch and in the afternoon I would lift weights. In the evenings Charles and I would go to a local high school and shoot buckets and work on my moves.

Charles also took me to Gold’s Gym. He told me it was the weight trainer’s Mecca. I had been to Mecca, all my life Mecca to me had meant the city in Saudi Arabia, the center of Islam. I didn’t know that Mecca also meant the ultimate center, an ultimate place to go, but when I walked into Gold’s Gym I understood exactly when he meant.

These people were like animals. Enormous animals. Even the women. Everyone there was pumped up and full of muscle and I looked so skinny. There were women much thicker than I was and everybody was so intense. I said, “This is a place for the devoted. If you’re not serious you shouldn’t even be walking in here.”

When I’d gotten to the University of Houston they’d taken me into the weight room the first say and I hadn’t been able to lift the bar off my chest. The bar, by itself. I didn’t have the technique and i wasn’t very strong. I had put on a little strength since then but I said to Charles, “This is not my game.” He understood clearly.

I started building by using light weights scaled to my abilities. At first it was strange. I had to get used to the technique and the concentration. But the more I wired with these weights the more I relaxed. In three days I really grew to like it.

I also realized I was getting immediate benefit from these workouts. When I took my shot or worked on my moves all the pain that I usually had in my knees and ankles went away. I was used to having my back ache and my muscles be tight and sore after a good session on the court—if you don’t really work out you can’t do the moves—but now everything seemed so relaxed and easy. Still, I would go to sleep *tired* at night and be sore in the morning. I knew if it was just me I would feel so tired I wouldn’t go work out the next day, but Charles really pushed me and I would warm up and be surprised to feel my body respond and recover quickly.

Charles had arranged for some high school students to rebound for me, so all I did on the court was work on individual moves.

I had never worked on my moves before. During the summers at Fonde I just played and competed, and whatever I wanted to try I tried in game competition. I had never stood off to one side and worked on footwork or leaping or any technique at all, I had worked on learning what worked, I had worked on winning. This was very different.

There was music in the background, a tape of pop music, and it made me creative. I had a lot of energy. I would shoot my jumper and see how high I could go and release the ball. In my mind I saw myself making each move and I felt like it was art. I would fake right, fake left, spin to the baseline. There was a rhythm, like I was dancing to the music. I felt like I was dancing on the court.

My jump hook had extra spring. Everything was sharp. I would make a jump hook, get tossed the rebound, take one bounce, and *go!* I could tell I was on top of my game. In athletics everything is control, you don’t do anything in a lazy way. I had energy and my breathing was wary because I was in condition.

I would shoot twenty-five jump hooks from the right side. Not just ordinary jump hooks, we were talking about preparing at a certain angle and jump hooks of a certain height. You did it right or you did it over. I stopped thinking about the jump hook and just shot it.

Then we worked on shooting jumpers from behind a pick. Sometimes in the past I would get the ball and realize I didn’t want to shoot it. Now I began thinking like a guard, like the in-between player I was. I would work on making my inside foot, the one closest to the basket, hit the floor just as I got the ball so when I jumped to shoot I was already squared up, shoulders facing the basket. It’s all in the footwork. Inside foot, outside foot, spring. If your feet are underneath you and your shoulders are not spinning to catch up, you will be balanced, your elevation will be better, you will jump higher and straighter and will have more time to take a good look at the basket. I saw how high I was jumping and that I was getting a good release. My shot was falling very softly. I was even hanging for a while and I had time, If I didn’t like the shot I was taking, to make different choices. I could pass in front of me; I had time to find an open man on the perimeter. I was in control.

All of a sudden basketball became new again! I pictured myself shooting from the outside. My game had been all spinning moves for a couple of years; every game I was going up against men bigger than I was but not as mobile, and I could spin in the paint and lose them. Now I began to bring those moves outside. If you can handle the ball a little bit outside you can spin and shoot the jumper, which makes your game much more dangerous because now they have to come get you and you can go right around them. When I pictured that I really got motivated!

I was being represented at the time by the Los Angeles-based agent Leonard Armato and one day he brought one of his new clients to the high school gym, this guy just out of Louisiana State University, Shaquille O’Neal.

I had spent entire summers going up against Moses Malone so I had some idea of what Shaquille might be thinking when he met me on the gym floor. *”Be a man!”* But Armato had told me Shaquille had said some very complimentary things about me, and, of course, I had heard about the number-one pick in the 1992 draft. I was having such a good time getting into condition and working on my moves that I invited Shaquille to work with me. This was not a game and we were not competing, this was going to be very pleasant. We trained together that day.

The first thing I noticed about Shaquille was that he was a lot bigger than I was. I was 6’11” and weighted about 250 pound he was 7’2” and up around 300—and still growing! He had the perfect big man’s body; once he got in the paint there was nothing anybody was going to be able to do with him.

We practiced moves together, big man’s moves. He tossed me the ball and I put up a jump hook. I tossed him the ball and he did exactly what I did. We did that a couple of times. Then, as a courtesy, I said, “You do something and I’ll follow you.” He put up a turnaround jumper and I did the same thing.

To show him how to fake the turnaround and use it as a threat to make the jump hook more effective, I told him, “Okay, you guard me.”

He didn’t know whether I was going to shoot the jumper or the jump hook. The players I had gone up against in the league or in practice had consistently fallen for the fake. I got the ball with my back to the basket and faked to my right. He bought the fake. I turned hard to my left, and shot the jump hook. At that moment he was lost; that move was sharp and new to him.

But the next time I tried it Shaquille straightened out. That’s when I realized how quick Shaquille was. In the league when they go for the fakes they never recover. But that’s what was different about Shaquille, he recovered and was there for the block. Shaquille wanted to block everything. I remembered how that felt.

Then I gave Shaquille the ball and showed him the basics of the Dream Shake. I showed him the moves and the footwork. Why would I do that when I knew we were going to play against each other for the next ten or fifteen years? I like sharing moves. If you’re scared about competition you shouldn’t even be in this league. I take joy in watching a skillful big man use his skills and I knew that if he wanted to, Shaquille would use the Dream Shake well.

Then I guarded him.

Shaquille was a fast learner. I had showed my moves to people before, and very often I’ had to instruct them over and over, something would be wrong. Not Shaquille. If he saw it he could do it. Show him, give him the ball, and he’ll do it exactly. I saw how high he jumped, how he released the ball far out of my reach. He was bigger and stronger than I was and he was taking my shot at a higher level. I was there to block him if he tried only half-heartedly, but he found right away that if the move was *sharp* he could beat me. That, in a single lesson, is the bottom line of the NBA: Play hard, if people respect you move they will back off and you can beat them. And Shaquille got it.

Shaquille showed me some moves of his own. He had power and energy and he was young. He did not really shoot a hook shot, he threw it down. I would finish a move with a jump hook a few feet from the basket, he would finish with a hook *dunk* with his hand inside the rim! He also had a nice touch on his turnaround jump shot, which was unusual for a man as big as he was. The jumper was natural, nice touch, particularly from the baseline. He was so big I didn’t have time to see if he was faking, I had to go up with him in order to have any chance to block him. One time he faked, I went up and he went under me. He made a nice move on me. I had tremendous respect for his ability.

In the league we would hear about kids in college who were going to come out and be a force, but we never knew what was hype and what was truth. College reputations are fine for college players, but in the pros you make your name all over again. Some guys start from scratch, some come from nowhere, some guys surpass expectations, and some can never live up to them. None of this was Shaquille’s problem. I knew right away this young man was going to terrorize the league. Any publicity he was going to get, he deserved it.

It was a wonderful morning. We worked together for two hours and it was very good to practice my post moves against someone who could play strong defense against them. Shaquille worked hard and so did I.

I enjoyed playing with Shaquille and I enjoyed being with him. He was a cool guy. No ego. I told him I really liked his nickname: Shaq. Some nicknames are just okay but his rhymed and it had the right meaning, that was his game. Shaq Attack. I liked my nickname for the same reason, it rhymed and it had the right meaning: The Dream. My whole life was too good to be true. I told him and he smiled. He seemed kind of shy. We talked and he knew I liked him right away. We established a relationship with mutual respect and I was very happy to have met him.

Rudy T's book also has some great insight on those Rockets teams (since he was a scout and later an assistant before becoming the head coach, he went through it all with Dream), maybe I'll type some stuff up. Rick Barry's Scouting Bibles (I think he put out 8, have them somewhere) really break his game down. In the interim, here are some quotes on Olajuwon from Zander Holander's guides (note that the year is of the edition, meaning the '1990' edition came out prior to the 89-90 season, and so covered through the 88-89 season). 98 was the final edition he put out (prior to the 97-98 season; the first was the 75 edition, which covered the 74-75 season) so Hakeem's whole prime is covered, and we're only missing two years as a starter:

Code: Select all

Hakeem

1985

“Already being compared to Bill Russell as a defensive force”
“Runs the floor as well as anyone in the game today”
“Awesome shot-blocker and strong inside force”
(Rockets needed 15-18 foot jumper)

1986

“Has incredible quickness and outstanding strength”

1987

“In just two seasons, he has blossomed into the best all-around center in NBA…That’s right, he’s ahead of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Moses Malone, Robert Parish, etc., because he can do more of everything”
“The game’s best offensive rebounder and a powerful inside force on offense, he has added a turnaround and jump hook to his repertoire”
“Fastest big man in the league from end to end”

1988

“He is clearly the best all-around center in the game today”
“Has developed an incredible fadeaway jump shot that almost hits the ceiling and he can use it effectively out to about 19 feet”

1989

“Of course, when the playoffs roll around, Olajuwon will again have to carry that load against double- and triple-teams.”
“The most feared single force in the game today, bar none…That includes Bird and Magic…Can singlehandedly take control of a game and dominate it”
“After Ralph Sampson was traded, defenses were able to tripe-team him”
“A bull on the inside and a light touch on the jumper…Can do it all”

1990

“Of course, Akeem Olajuwon is an expert in making even the most difficult shots.”
“The single most dominating force in the game. That means he can do more things than Michael Jordan”
“Has incredible athletic ability and a dogged willingness to get better…Each year he adds another weapon to his repertoire…The turnaround jumper on the baseline is now deadly and his Dream Shake move to the hoop is unstoppable”

1991

“Too often, a Rocket makes a dubious stab at a steal and then looks over his shoulder, expecting Olajuwon to pick up and cover. That’s fine, except that is the way Akeem likes to play, too. Somehow that produced the NBA’s fifth best defense (by FG percentage) last season. It probably helped that Olajuwon, again the league leader in blocked shots, also was eighth in steals.”
“Olajuwon’s one of the league’s most athletic players…Since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, current centers are measured against him”

1994

“Olajuwon is the obvious factor. He has led the NBA in blocked shots three of the last four seasons, helping Houston finish third in the category at 6.6 per game.”
“Awesome physical abilities, with some moves made from strength and some from quickness…Will hit the short fadeaway in the lane but has to be covered 15 feet out”

1995

“Hakeem Olajuwon still took more shots than anyone in the NBA (1,694) and finished 10th in percentage, at .528, with an arsenal of jump hooks, fallaways, spin moves and perimeter shots as far as 16 to 18 feet out.”
“So does having someone like Olajuwon, who has become so adept at passing out of the double-team from the post, usually to hit an open guard on the perimeter. Imagine how many shots he could have had if he got selfish with even a portion of those 287 assists. But he has become a much better player since being convinced a few years back that making the extra pass would be more important to the team than individual scoring statistics.”
“Great agility for his size, with spin moves and fallaways that make him almost impossible to defend one-on-one”

1996

“Once the ball went into him, the options were limitless. Fall away. Spin-move into the lane. Jumper from 16 feet.”
“Rockets think his turnaround jumper from the left baseline is the most reliable weapon in the game. ‘I don’t know how you stop that shot,’ coach Rudy Tomjanovich said. ‘It’s an all-pro shot, a Hall of Fame shot.’”

1997

“That has long been a weapon. Just  not as long as Olajuwon, who turns 34 in January but shows no sign of slowing down. His signature spin moves inside are still impossible to defend, his fallaways from the high post still graceful and deadly, his medium-range jumpers a very reliable option. Oh, and he runs the court like a 24-year old.”
“Having Olajuwon in the paint, waiting for guards to try and penetrate, means they are feared.”

1998

“Olajuwon is still the Rockets’ only 50-percent shooter, and his spinning baseline moves (complete with an extra hop that referees never seem to notice) remain unstoppable.”
“The most important passes thrown on this team are by Olajuwon, who foils double-teams and sets up open teammates with his lobs to the paint.”
“Still as deadly as ever offensively, with that unblock able baseline turnaround…Defensively, he is merely the NBA’s all-time leader in blocked shots”

[AbeVigodaLive]

I dismiss most of what athletes "write" in their autobiographies. I really hate the genre.

Sorry to so casually dismiss all that legwork. For the record, I tried. I got to "Ralph [Sampson] was a big man who played like a guard." and I stopped.

[FPL]

As for Kobe and LeBron, I don't get into the whole back and forth with them. Interestingly enough, for both guys perfecting their post games was a big point in their evolution. Of course LeBron working with Hakeem got a ton of publicity, and a few years back Kobe did as well:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/f ... .olajuwon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In addition, beginning in 07, Kobe worked with Grover (same dude who trained MJ, Wade, and others obviously) to put on functional mass:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/scouts-eye ... --nba.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/colum ... id=4207575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... src=mobile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kobe-sees- ... --nba.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/ ... G8uveyu.97" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kobe always had a versatile offensive game, but as he worked with Grover and Olajuwon, he rated favorably among a trio of the best PFs of all time in terms of post-up offense (Synergy data doesn't exist before 04-05; I'll see if I can find the numbers for LeBron as well since he is in the vote here, but the goal isn't to compare the two for me, but rather to note the evolution of Kobe's game):

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

2005:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense (includes pass outs): 1.022 PPP on 740 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.043 PPP on 555 poss
Pass outs: 1.084 PPP on 155 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 30 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.981 PPP on 627 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.938 PPP on 470 poss
Pass outs: 1.288 PPP on 125 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.406 PPP on 32 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.887 PPP on 222 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.915 PPP on 177 poss
Pass outs: 1.00 PPP on 33 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.167 PPP on 12 poss


Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.966 PPP on 205 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.969 PPP on 161 poss
Pass outs: 1.188 PPP on 32 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.333 PPP on 12 poss


2006:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.034 PPP on 730 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.049 PPP on 574 poss
Pass outs: 1.08 PPP on 138 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.222 PPP on 18 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.952 PPP on 834 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.903 PPP on 636 poss
Pass outs: 1.269 PPP on 171 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.111 PPP on 27 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.012 PPP on 328 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.048 PPP on 272 poss
Pass outs: 1.000 PPP on 47 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.981 PPP on 261 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.941 PPP on 205 poss
Pass outs: 1.260 PPP on 50 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 6 poss

2007:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.080 PPP on 511 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.068 PPP on 470 poss
Pass outs: 1.351 PPP on 37 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 4 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.992 PPP on 864 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.036 PPP on 669 poss
Pass outs: 0.988 PPP on 164 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.065 PPP on 31 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.033 PPP on 300 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.036 PPP on 224 poss
Pass outs: 1.219 PPP on 64 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 4 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.039 PPP on 229 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.055 PPP on 183 poss
Pass outs: 1.216 PPP on 37 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss


2008:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.060 PPP on 580 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.038 PPP on 472 poss
Pass outs: 1.263 PPP on 99 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.957 PPP on 678 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.948 PPP on 600 poss
Pass outs: 1.159 PPP on 63 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.467 PPP on 15 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.021 PPP on 389 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.045 PPP on 308 poss
Pass outs: 1.071 PPP on 70 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 11 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.102 PPP on 266 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.042 PPP on 212 poss
Pass outs: 1.412 PPP on 51 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 3 poss


2009:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.993 PPP on 290 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 254 poss
Pass outs: 1.484 PPP on 31 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 5 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.010 PPP on 675 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.982 PPP on 563 poss
Pass outs: 1.250 PPP on 96 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.563 PPP on 16 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.998 PPP on 549 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.000 PPP on 454 poss
Pass outs: 1.173 PPP on 75 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 20 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.035 PPP on 340 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.039 PPP on 285 poss
Pass outs: 1.125 PPP on 48 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.286 PPP on 7 poss

2010:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.912 PPP on 363 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.890 PPP on 291 poss
Pass outs: 1.094 PPP on 64 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.250 PPP on 8 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 1.086 PPP on 725 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.070 PPP on 557 poss
Pass outs: 1.250 PPP on 148 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 20 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.061 PPP on 603 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.081 PPP on 471 poss
Pass outs: 1.139 PPP on 108 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.333 PPP on 24 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.058 PPP on 590 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.002 PPP on 431 poss
Pass outs: 1.309 PPP on 139 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.500 PPP on 20 poss

2011:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 1.011 PPP on 374 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.035 PPP on 288 poss
Pass outs: 1.059 PPP on 68 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.444 PPP on 18 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.977 PPP on 432 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.948 PPP on 344 poss
Pass outs: 1.227 PPP on 75 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.308 PPP on 13 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.154 PPP on 494 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.170 PPP on 389 poss
Pass outs: 1.178 PPP on 90 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.600 PPP on 15 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.022 PPP on 409 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.007 PPP on 300 poss
Pass outs: 1.125 PPP on 96 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.615 PPP on 13 poss

2012:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.987 PPP on 371 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.990 PPP on 286 poss
Pass outs: 1.203 PPP on 69 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 16 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.855 PPP on 358 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.837 PPP on 294 poss
Pass outs: 1.091 PPP on 55 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 0.991 PPP on 446 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 340 poss
Pass outs: 1.282 PPP on 78 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.643 PPP on 28 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 0.914 PPP on 431 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.935 PPP on 308 poss
Pass outs: 1.077 PPP on 91 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.250 PPP on 32 poss


2013:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.978 PPP on 416 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.946 PPP on 313 poss
Pass outs: 1.165 PPP on 91 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.417 PPP on 12 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.955 PPP on 423 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.966 PPP on 328 poss
Pass outs: 1.039 PPP on 77 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.389 PPP on 18 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.069 PPP on 304 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.051 PPP on 215 poss
Pass outs: 1.221 PPP on 77 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.417 PPP on 12 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.081 PPP on 431 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.123 PPP on 243 poss
Pass outs: 1.140 PPP on 150 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.579 PPP on 38 poss


2014:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.806 PPP on 93 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.861 PPP on 72 poss
Pass outs: 0.650 PPP on 20 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 1 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.917 PPP on 435 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 342 poss
Pass outs: 1.017 PPP on 58 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.400 PPP on 35 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.079 PPP on 682 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.116 PPP on 490 poss
Pass outs: 1.135 PPP on 148 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.477 PPP on 44 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.158 PPP on 38 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.870 PPP on 23 poss
Pass outs: 1.846 PPP on 13 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 2 poss

[wailuaFC]

Great post fpliii, love the part where dream talks about working with shaq. I definitely would draft Hakeem over any else on the board so I guess I'll go with him

[Robceltsfan]

Who I would draft versus who I would rank are completely different to me.

In a draft, the first 5 or 6 on my board would probably all be big 4's or 5's. It's easier to build a team around a big man.

Russ
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Olajuwon
Shaq

I'd probably choose all of those guys, if available, before I'd spend a pick on MJ.

[wailuaFC]

As for Kobe and LeBron, I don't get into the whole back and forth with them. Interestingly enough, for both guys perfecting their post games was a big point in their evolution. Of course LeBron working with Hakeem got a ton of publicity, and a few years back Kobe did as well:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/f ... .olajuwon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In addition, beginning in 07, Kobe worked with Grover (same dude who trained MJ, Wade, and others obviously) to put on functional mass:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/scouts-eye ... --nba.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/colum ... id=4207575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... src=mobile" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kobe-sees- ... --nba.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/ ... G8uveyu.97" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kobe always had a versatile offensive game, but as he worked with Grover and Olajuwon, he rated favorably among a trio of the best PFs of all time in terms of post-up offense (Synergy data doesn't exist before 04-05; I'll see if I can find the numbers for LeBron as well since he is in the vote here, but the goal isn't to compare the two for me, but rather to note the evolution of Kobe's game):

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

2005:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense (includes pass outs): 1.022 PPP on 740 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.043 PPP on 555 poss
Pass outs: 1.084 PPP on 155 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 30 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.981 PPP on 627 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.938 PPP on 470 poss
Pass outs: 1.288 PPP on 125 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.406 PPP on 32 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.887 PPP on 222 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.915 PPP on 177 poss
Pass outs: 1.00 PPP on 33 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.167 PPP on 12 poss


Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.966 PPP on 205 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.969 PPP on 161 poss
Pass outs: 1.188 PPP on 32 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.333 PPP on 12 poss


2006:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.034 PPP on 730 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.049 PPP on 574 poss
Pass outs: 1.08 PPP on 138 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.222 PPP on 18 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.952 PPP on 834 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.903 PPP on 636 poss
Pass outs: 1.269 PPP on 171 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.111 PPP on 27 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.012 PPP on 328 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.048 PPP on 272 poss
Pass outs: 1.000 PPP on 47 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.981 PPP on 261 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.941 PPP on 205 poss
Pass outs: 1.260 PPP on 50 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 6 poss

2007:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.080 PPP on 511 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.068 PPP on 470 poss
Pass outs: 1.351 PPP on 37 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 4 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.992 PPP on 864 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.036 PPP on 669 poss
Pass outs: 0.988 PPP on 164 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.065 PPP on 31 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.033 PPP on 300 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.036 PPP on 224 poss
Pass outs: 1.219 PPP on 64 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 4 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.039 PPP on 229 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.055 PPP on 183 poss
Pass outs: 1.216 PPP on 37 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss


2008:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.060 PPP on 580 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.038 PPP on 472 poss
Pass outs: 1.263 PPP on 99 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.957 PPP on 678 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.948 PPP on 600 poss
Pass outs: 1.159 PPP on 63 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.467 PPP on 15 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.021 PPP on 389 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.045 PPP on 308 poss
Pass outs: 1.071 PPP on 70 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 11 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.102 PPP on 266 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.042 PPP on 212 poss
Pass outs: 1.412 PPP on 51 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 3 poss


2009:
Garnett:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.993 PPP on 290 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 254 poss
Pass outs: 1.484 PPP on 31 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 5 poss

Duncan:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.010 PPP on 675 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.982 PPP on 563 poss
Pass outs: 1.250 PPP on 96 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.563 PPP on 16 poss

Dirk:
Post-up Derived offense: 0.998 PPP on 549 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.000 PPP on 454 poss
Pass outs: 1.173 PPP on 75 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 20 poss

Kobe:
Post-up Derived offense: 1.035 PPP on 340 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.039 PPP on 285 poss
Pass outs: 1.125 PPP on 48 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.286 PPP on 7 poss

2010:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.912 PPP on 363 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.890 PPP on 291 poss
Pass outs: 1.094 PPP on 64 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.250 PPP on 8 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 1.086 PPP on 725 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.070 PPP on 557 poss
Pass outs: 1.250 PPP on 148 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.300 PPP on 20 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.061 PPP on 603 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.081 PPP on 471 poss
Pass outs: 1.139 PPP on 108 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.333 PPP on 24 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.058 PPP on 590 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.002 PPP on 431 poss
Pass outs: 1.309 PPP on 139 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.500 PPP on 20 poss

2011:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 1.011 PPP on 374 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.035 PPP on 288 poss
Pass outs: 1.059 PPP on 68 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.444 PPP on 18 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.977 PPP on 432 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.948 PPP on 344 poss
Pass outs: 1.227 PPP on 75 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.308 PPP on 13 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.154 PPP on 494 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.170 PPP on 389 poss
Pass outs: 1.178 PPP on 90 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.600 PPP on 15 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.022 PPP on 409 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.007 PPP on 300 poss
Pass outs: 1.125 PPP on 96 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.615 PPP on 13 poss

2012:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.987 PPP on 371 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.990 PPP on 286 poss
Pass outs: 1.203 PPP on 69 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 16 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.855 PPP on 358 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.837 PPP on 294 poss
Pass outs: 1.091 PPP on 55 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 9 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 0.991 PPP on 446 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 340 poss
Pass outs: 1.282 PPP on 78 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.643 PPP on 28 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 0.914 PPP on 431 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.935 PPP on 308 poss
Pass outs: 1.077 PPP on 91 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.250 PPP on 32 poss


2013:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.978 PPP on 416 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.946 PPP on 313 poss
Pass outs: 1.165 PPP on 91 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.417 PPP on 12 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.955 PPP on 423 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.966 PPP on 328 poss
Pass outs: 1.039 PPP on 77 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.389 PPP on 18 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.069 PPP on 304 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.051 PPP on 215 poss
Pass outs: 1.221 PPP on 77 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.417 PPP on 12 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.081 PPP on 431 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.123 PPP on 243 poss
Pass outs: 1.140 PPP on 150 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.579 PPP on 38 poss


2014:
Garnett
Post-up Derived offense: 0.806 PPP on 93 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.861 PPP on 72 poss
Pass outs: 0.650 PPP on 20 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 1 poss

Duncan
Post-up Derived offense: 0.917 PPP on 435 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.953 PPP on 342 poss
Pass outs: 1.017 PPP on 58 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.400 PPP on 35 poss

Dirk
Post-up Derived offense: 1.079 PPP on 682 poss
Single covered post-ups: 1.116 PPP on 490 poss
Pass outs: 1.135 PPP on 148 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0.477 PPP on 44 poss

Kobe
Post-up Derived offense: 1.158 PPP on 38 poss
Single covered post-ups: 0.870 PPP on 23 poss
Pass outs: 1.846 PPP on 13 poss
Doubled, no pass out: 0 PPP on 2 poss

Post Derived Offense, 2005-14 (incudes passes out of post), by Points Per Possession:
Dirk Nowitzki....1.035
Kobe Bryant.....1.026
Kevin Garnett...1.012
Tim Duncan......0.980

Not bad at all

[FPL]

I dismiss most of what athletes "write" in their autobiographies. I really hate the genre.

Sorry to so casually dismiss all that legwork. For the record, I tried. I got to "Ralph [Sampson] was a big man who played like a guard." and I stopped.

Well I have a chapter from Rudy T's book somewhere uploaded on my email (EDIT: Actually, looks like it's two chapters. Here is the link to read them: http://www15.zippyshare.com/v/TWn40kdr/file.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Wasn't a player at the time but I guess it's still in that genre. I'll post it here when I have some free time to look. I think most are familiar with the hand Hakeem was dealt though, just wanted to throw it out there for those who aren't.

My only real point is though is aside from KG, no all-time great had to deal with such brutal circumstances for such a long time in his prime (maybe KAJ and Oscar would qualify going further back). I just don't feel comfortable waving those seasons off (not saying you do, but I think they warrant a further look).

Who I would draft versus who I would rank are completely different to me.

In a draft, the first 5 or 6 on my board would probably all be big 4's or 5's. It's easier to build a team around a big man.

Russ
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Olajuwon
Shaq

I'd probably choose all of those guys, if available, before I'd spend a pick on MJ.

I'm not 100% sure who I would pick. There would be some bugs but the league has changed a bit in terms of knowledge, rules, and trends. There won't be enough tape available ever for me to possibly rank Wilt/Russ, and there is barely enough for KAJ (and I still have to get ahold of a good deal of the available games on him before forming an opinion).

I totally respect that the lists are different for 99.9% of people, which is why my list (which changes all the time) is so far out there. Two or three years ago I sat down and thought about it, and figured that for me personally they should be the same thing (not going to rehash what I said the other thread, but you and I had a nice conversation a thread or two ago on the topic).

Anyhow though, I would be interested in the future to see what kind of list posters have, of the order in which they'd draft some of these greats, if the goal is to win as much as possible with said guy as your franchise player. Another project for another time.

[wailuaFC]

Who I would draft versus who I would rank are completely different to me.

In a draft, the first 5 or 6 on my board would probably all be big 4's or 5's. It's easier to build a team around a big man.

Russ
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Olajuwon
Shaq

I'd probably choose all of those guys, if available, before I'd spend a pick on MJ.

Are you trying to convince me to change my pick to Kobe?

[Robceltsfan]

Who I would draft versus who I would rank are completely different to me.

In a draft, the first 5 or 6 on my board would probably all be big 4's or 5's. It's easier to build a team around a big man.

Russ
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Olajuwon
Shaq

I'd probably choose all of those guys, if available, before I'd spend a pick on MJ.

Are you trying to convince me to change my pick to Kobe?

You KNOW I'm not...

[wailuaFC]

Who I would draft versus who I would rank are completely different to me.

In a draft, the first 5 or 6 on my board would probably all be big 4's or 5's. It's easier to build a team around a big man.

Russ
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Olajuwon
Shaq

I'd probably choose all of those guys, if available, before I'd spend a pick on MJ.

Are you trying to convince me to change my pick to Kobe?

You KNOW I'm not...

I don't know, you're argument was pretty convincing. Y2k, can you please switch my vote to Kobe

[Robceltsfan]

Are you trying to convince me to change my pick to Kobe?

You KNOW I'm not...

I don't know, you're argument was pretty convincing. Y2k, can you please switch my vote to Kobe

[Robceltsfan]

Shaqs spot is just stupid.

Why? He went #9 in our other ranking....and we basically eliminated some or all of the careers of 3 players ranked ahead of him (Russ, Wilt & KAJ).

#5 doesn't seem very far fetched.

[Deez]

Lebron

(Switched to Kobe)

[Odogg]

Damn this one just got tight.

[Y2K]

I dismiss most of what athletes "write" in their autobiographies. I really hate the genre.

Sorry to so casually dismiss all that legwork. For the record, I tried. I got to "Ralph [Sampson] was a big man who played like a guard." and I stopped.

Well I have a chapter from Rudy T's book somewhere uploaded on my email. Wasn't a player at the time but I guess it's still in that genre. I'll post it here when I have some free time to look. I think most are familiar with the chand Hakeem was dealt though, just wanted to throw it out there for those who aren't.

My only real point is though is aside from KG, no all-time great had to deal with such brutal circumstances for such a long time in his prime (maybe KAJ and Oscar would qualify going further back). I just don't feel comfortable waving those seasons off (not saying you do, but I think they warrant a further look).

Who I would draft versus who I would rank are completely different to me.

In a draft, the first 5 or 6 on my board would probably all be big 4's or 5's. It's easier to build a team around a big man.

Russ
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Olajuwon
Shaq

I'd probably choose all of those guys, if available, before I'd spend a pick on MJ.

I'm not 100% sure who I would pick. There would be some bugs but the league has changed a bit in terms of knowledge, rules, and trends. There won't be enough tape available ever for me to possibly rank Wilt/Russ, and there is barely enough for KAJ (and I still have to get ahold of a good deal of the available games on him before forming an opinion).

I totally respect that the lists are different for 99.9% of people, which is why my list (which changes all the time) is so far out there. Two or three years ago I sat down and thought about it, and figured that for me personally they should be the same thing (not going to rehash what I said the other thread, but you and I had a nice conversation a thread or two ago on the topic).

Anyhow though, I would be interested in the future to see what kind of list posters have, of the order in which they'd draft some of these greats, if the goal is to win as much as possible with said guy as your franchise player. Another project for another time.

The thing that hurts Hakeem Olajuwon a lot is that some people feel that he simply didn't win enough. I respect the opinion but I can't truly agree with that knowing the circumstances and the era in which he played.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Scottie Pippen because he even though he doesn't touch these guys statistically, he has 6 rings.

I second that nomination...

Pippen was the second-best, second-most valuable, second most important player (by far and away) on THE greatest Dynasty in NBA Finals history.

Statistically speaking Pippen averaged 20/7/6/48% on those 6 Championship teams, and remains to this day (arguably) THE greatest perimeter Defender in NBA history.

Pippen was LeBron before LeBron... with 4 more Championships.