2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #2

[americaninfidel]

Ok. Don't know how that's relevant though.

Bird DID make a 29-win team into a 61-win team instantly. And that team didn't include Cousy, Heinshohn, Russell or ghosts of champions past. Magic DID win an NBA title with a magical FInals performance for the ages immediately. Mikan wasn't anywhere to be found.

In fact, up until that point, the Lakers were largely considered the red-headed stepchild to the fabled Celtics franchise. Magic helped swing that... and Kobe and Shaq kept it going...

Sure, but contrast the number of championships the Celtics have without Bird and the Lakers have without Magic, with the number of championships the Spurs have without Duncan or the Bulls have without Jordan.

The Spurs and bulls are a step below the Lakers and Celtics in the NBA hierarchy all time.

Absolutely. They are the two franchises vying for bronze. But without Duncan/Jordan, neither franchise would have a claim to that 3rd spot. Those two guys took also-rans and made them champions.

[ripper76]

Sure, but contrast the number of championships the Celtics have without Bird and the Lakers have without Magic, with the number of championships the Spurs have without Duncan or the Bulls have without Jordan.

The Spurs and bulls are a step below the Lakers and Celtics in the NBA hierarchy all time.

Absolutely. They are the two franchises vying for bronze. But without Duncan/Jordan, neither franchise would have a claim to that 3rd spot. Those two guys took also-rans and made them champions.

Gotcha.

Absolutely agree.

[americaninfidel]

The Spurs and bulls are a step below the Lakers and Celtics in the NBA hierarchy all time.

Absolutely. They are the two franchises vying for bronze. But without Duncan/Jordan, neither franchise would have a claim to that 3rd spot. Those two guys took also-rans and made them champions.

Gotcha.

Absolutely agree.

And so, you are ready to switch your vote from Bird to Timmy, right?

[Y2K]

Would vote for Hakeem, but he doesn't have any support at this point in time it seems.

I believe that Dream's legacy and even reputation is one of the most misunderstood of any player that I can think of in NBA history. I'll get into it later.

Grizz is the only poster here or on ESPN that I've ever read a post from that wasn't almost universal praise toward Olajuwon. He didn't rip him... but he did acknowledge Olajuwon was not the patron saint of the NBA.

I think because we're more fixated on stats now... Hakeem is one of those cats who's perceived better now than when he played. And Bird is in the opposite camp.

Let's just say that nobody in 1992... or 1996 or even 2000 was choosing Olajuwon over Bird or Magic. And I still wouldn't...

Part of the thing with Olajuwon is that he played in the shadows of Jordan, Bird, Magic and the dynasties that are attached to them. It is only after the fact that we go back and truly appreciate Dream, the Bad Boys and other players and teams that didn't get the full dues that they deserved in the moment.

[Y2K]

Duncan.

I don't believe Bird nor Magic could replicate what Duncan has done for the San Antonio Spurs. What Duncan has done with the Spurs for ~18 years is unbelievable. He's anchored the most successful sports franchise in North America in the last 20 years. Disclaimer: A large part of that is health.

Eh...I don't know about that with Magic. I mean as much as his defense can be called into question, he was far superior the offensive weapon....even at age 36 he was still very impactful.

Again, I'm a huge proponent of great two-way players. But at some point being arguably a top 5 most lethal and impactful offensive player to ever play in the NBA can trump being at best an average defensive player.

[ripper76]

Absolutely. They are the two franchises vying for bronze. But without Duncan/Jordan, neither franchise would have a claim to that 3rd spot. Those two guys took also-rans and made them champions.

Gotcha.

Absolutely agree.

And so, you are ready to switch your vote from Bird to Timmy, right?

[Y2K]

:magicbird:

[americaninfidel]

:magicbird:

[Y2K]

:magicbird:

[vcsgrizzfan]

Wow. I had planned to boycott this assuming Timmy would get short shrift as he usually does, but hey, I'll join the party and vote Timmy!!

[Y2K]

Wow. I had planned to boycott this assuming Timmy would get short shrift as he usually does, but hey, I'll join the party and vote Timmy!!

Why would you think this? He finished 5th in last year's voting.

[Y2K]

Would vote for Hakeem, but he doesn't have any support at this point in time it seems.

As such, I'll go with Duncan for now. One of the best defensive players of all-time, terrific longevity.

No disrespect intended to Magic/Bird at all (and Bird is an underrated defender, particularly at the 4), in addition to defense and longevity not being strengths of theirs, both of which I weigh heavily, they also benefitted heavily from the lack of a salary cap being in place. From when the cap was introduced until the lockout (when max salaries were added), the playoff payrolls of champions (no complete salary data is available prior to 84-85):

Code: Select all

Year	Team	ratio
1985	LAL	2.22
1986	BOS	1.46
1987	LAL	2.25
1988	LAL	1.43
1989	DET	0.84
1990	DET	0.99
1991	CHI	0.85
1992	CHI	1.31
1993	CHI	1.29
1994	HOU	0.94
1995	HOU	0.96
1996	CHI	1.04
1997	CHI	2.32
1998	CHI	2.20

Boston to some extent, but especially LA stand out, and this is after the cap was introduced (so the Lakers, Magic, and Sixers prior to 84-85 were likely way up there as well; EDIT: Remember on those 80s teams post-cap, contracts were already in place, so they were able to take advantage of having tons of talent pre-cap). Note that if MJ receives the same $3.85 million in 97 and 98 as he did in 95 and 96 (remember there was no max until the new CBA prior to the lockout, so he was paid $30.14M and $33.14M), Chicago's payroll ratio becomes 1.24 and 1.12, which is far less insane.

Note that the salary argument is secondary here for me though. Duncan being a top 5 all-time defender and playing at a high level for nearly two decades are the primary criteria here (and again, I would go with Dream over Duncan, but I'll make his case when he has more traction).

When critics look back at Olajuwon's career, they see:

-subpar Rockets team from 1987-92
-only 2 rings
-only 1 regular season MVP

When winning is so heavily weighted, Olajuwon's resume doesn't look quite as nice. The talent and production was there:

2× Defensive Player of Year (1993, '94) - Only Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard and Mutombo have more all-time

6× All-NBA First Team (1987, '88, '89, '93, '94, '97) - no center in his era had more than 4
3× All-NBA Second Team ('86, '90, '96)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, '95, '99)
--------------------------------------------------
12x All-NBA Teams - only Kareem (15) and Shaq (14) have more all-time as centers


5× All-Defensive First Team ('87, '88, '90, '93, '94) - tied for first all-time for centers with Kareem
4× All-Defensive Second Team ('85, '91, '96, '97)
--------------------------------------------------------
9x All-Defensive Teams - only Kareem (11) has more as a center

[americaninfidel]

Wow. I had planned to boycott this assuming Timmy would get short shrift as he usually does, but hey, I'll join the party and vote Timmy!!

Timmy definitely has a strong case for #2, but he's also benefiting from the vote-split between Magic and Bird. I suspect that if Duncan doesn't get #2, he'll end up #4.

[Y2K]

Wow. I had planned to boycott this assuming Timmy would get short shrift as he usually does, but hey, I'll join the party and vote Timmy!!

Timmy definitely has a strong case for #2, but he's also benefiting from the vote-split between Magic and Bird. I suspect that if Duncan doesn't get #2, he'll end up #4.

Excellent point. These two being so intertwined in basketball history and the similar resumes appears to actually be working against them in this round.

[Y2K]

Voting for this round will end today at 7:45 PM CST.

[elmouse03]

Duncan over Kobe?

[Y2K]

Duncan over Kobe?

It's looking like it. It would have made for a better debate but no one nominated him. The two of them are about as close a comparison to discuss since the Bird/Magic era.

[wailuaFC]

Magic, as much as I love defensive bigs, no one was able to run an offense like magic, year in and year out the lakers were elite offensively despite many moving parts. That being said, this is a really hard spot to vote because it's essentially peak vs longevity, with bird/magic having clearly higher picks and Duncan the much greater longevity. I don't think there's a wrong vote to be made for any of those 3


Side note: I respect how much Timmy did for the Spurs, but magic (and bird) brought back the whole NBA, their rivalry and magics magic made people start being fans again

[elmouse03]

Duncan over Kobe?

It's looking like it. It would have made for a better debate but no one nominated him. The two of them are about as close a comparison to discuss since the Bird/Magic era.

We'll have tdk make a poll thread between the 2 players.

[Y2K]

Magic, as much as I love defensive bigs, no one was able to run an offense like magic, year in and year out the lakers were elite offensively despite many moving parts. That being said, this is a really hard spot to vote because it's essentially peak vs longevity, with bird/magic having clearly higher picks and Duncan the much greater longevity. I don't think there's a wrong vote to be made for any of those 3


Side note: I respect how much Timmy did for the Spurs, but magic (and bird) brought back the whole NBA, their rivalry and magics magic made people start being fans again

Your side note is something that I value very much.