2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #2

[Deez]

Or if Bird didn't have a bad back. Or if Jordan were drafted to a winning team. Or if Lebron didn't waste away in Cleveland. Or KG didn't play in Minny.

Yadda yadda yadda.

Nope. Those were all victim to natural molecular deterioration, or random luck or chance any human being is subjected to in life. But to get HIV and have to quit in the prime of his life, dat shit ain't natural, or random. Magic is the only one listed with a legit "if" excuse.

Stupidity is naturally occuring.....and that dipshit stupidly stuck his dick in anything that moved....possibly even men. Sorry, we're not passing out excuse cards to you TDK wannabees.

[Deez]

Magic

[Y2K]

I see that a few people who have spoken in Magic's favor but no official vote. The vote must be in clear cut wording to be validated.

[FPL]

Would vote for Hakeem, but he doesn't have any support at this point in time it seems.

As such, I'll go with Duncan for now. One of the best defensive players of all-time, terrific longevity.

No disrespect intended to Magic/Bird at all (and Bird is an underrated defender, particularly at the 4), in addition to defense and longevity not being strengths of theirs, both of which I weigh heavily, they also benefitted heavily from the lack of a salary cap being in place. From when the cap was introduced until the lockout (when max salaries were added), the playoff payrolls of champions (no complete salary data is available prior to 84-85):

Code: Select all

Year	Team	ratio
1985	LAL	2.22
1986	BOS	1.46
1987	LAL	2.25
1988	LAL	1.43
1989	DET	0.84
1990	DET	0.99
1991	CHI	0.85
1992	CHI	1.31
1993	CHI	1.29
1994	HOU	0.94
1995	HOU	0.96
1996	CHI	1.04
1997	CHI	2.32
1998	CHI	2.20

Boston to some extent, but especially LA stand out, and this is after the cap was introduced (so the Lakers, Magic, and Sixers prior to 84-85 were likely way up there as well; EDIT: Remember on those 80s teams post-cap, contracts were already in place, so they were able to take advantage of having tons of talent pre-cap). Note that if MJ receives the same $3.85 million in 97 and 98 as he did in 95 and 96 (remember there was no max until the new CBA prior to the lockout, so he was paid $30.14M and $33.14M), Chicago's payroll ratio becomes 1.24 and 1.12, which is far less insane.

Note that the salary argument is secondary here for me though. Duncan being a top 5 all-time defender and playing at a high level for nearly two decades are the primary criteria here (and again, I would go with Dream over Duncan, but I'll make his case when he has more traction).

[Y2K]

Would vote for Hakeem, but he doesn't have any support at this point in time it seems.

As such, I'll go with Duncan for now. One of the best defensive players of all-time, terrific longevity.

No disrespect intended to Magic/Bird at all (and Bird is an underrated defender, particularly at the 4), in addition to defense and longevity not being strengths of theirs, both of which I weigh heavily, they also benefitted heavily from the lack of a salary cap being in place. From when the cap was introduced until the lockout (when max salaries were added), the playoff payrolls of champions (no complete salary data is available prior to 84-85):

Code: Select all

Year	Team	ratio
1985	LAL	2.22
1986	BOS	1.46
1987	LAL	2.25
1988	LAL	1.43
1989	DET	0.84
1990	DET	0.99
1991	CHI	0.85
1992	CHI	1.31
1993	CHI	1.29
1994	HOU	0.94
1995	HOU	0.96
1996	CHI	1.04
1997	CHI	2.32
1998	CHI	2.20

Boston to some extent, but especially LA stand out, and this is after the cap was introduced (so the Lakers, Magic, and Sixers prior to 84-85 were likely way up there as well; EDIT: Remember on those 80s teams post-cap, contracts were already in place, so they were able to take advantage of having tons of talent pre-cap). Note that if MJ receives the same $3.85 million in 97 and 98 as he did in 95 and 96 (remember there was no max until the new CBA prior to the lockout, so he was paid $30.14M and $33.14M), Chicago's payroll ratio becomes 1.24 and 1.12, which is far less insane.

Note that the salary argument is secondary here for me though. Duncan being a top 5 all-time defender and playing at a high level for nearly two decades are the primary criteria here (and again, I would go with Dream over Duncan, but I'll make his case when he has more traction).

I believe that Dream's legacy and even reputation is one of the most misunderstood of any player that I can think of in NBA history. I'll get into it later.

[Titan18]

Duncan

[thedangerouskitchen]

I've given this a little more thought. My main reason for picking Magic over Bird was that Magic had better longevity and more rings. And by that same measurement, Duncan actually tops Magic. Equal number of rings, but Timmy has a greater arc of longevity, and his record in the Finals is better.

I'm switching my vote to Duncan. (I'll edit my original post.)

Yeah... the more and more you dissect Duncan's career the harder and harder it becomes to ignore the fact that he has a very strong argument for #4 on the all-time list (behind MJ, Russ and Jabbar).

Dissect his career for us please.

Are you serious... ? Haven't you been paying attention the last 18 years?

- Rings: 5 (among all-time greats only Jordan has more post-merger)

- Finals MVP: 3 (among all-time greats only Jordan has more)

- 2 regular season MVP's (Top 5 in voting 9 times, indicating sustained dominance)

- 18 combined All First Team selections (10 NBA / 8 Defense - only Jordan has more among the contenders for #2 post-merger, an indication that Tim was an elite player on both ends of the court during his era. Magic and Bird can't say that).

- Team success (50 or more wins 17 out of 18 seasons; only season less was the lockout of 99... 9 trips to the Conference Finals playing in a stacked WC while Magic, for example, played in a soft Conference... 5-1 record in the Finals better than any post-merger great except Jordan)

- 20/11/50% in regular season and 21/12/50% in the Playoffs, so he doesn't shit the bed under pressure. In fact, he gets better.

So he's got the Rings, the Hardware, the All-Around excellence, the Career and Peak value numbers, the team success, etc, etc.

There should be no question that Duncan has a legit argument for #4 all-time.

[Y2K]

Yeah... the more and more you dissect Duncan's career the harder and harder it becomes to ignore the fact that he has a very strong argument for #4 on the all-time list (behind MJ, Russ and Jabbar).

Dissect his career for us please.

Are you serious... ? Haven't you been paying attention the last 18 years?

- Rings: 5 (among all-time greats only Jordan has more post-merger)

- Finals MVP: 3 (among all-time greats only Jordan has more)

- 2 regular season MVP's (Top 5 in voting 9 times)

- 18 combined All First Team selections (10 NBA / 8 Defense - only Jordan has more among the contenders for #2 post-merger, an indication that Tim was an elite player on both ends of the court during his era. Magic and Bird can't say that).

- Team success (50 or more wins 17 out of 18 seasons; only season less was the lockout of 99... 9 trips to the Conference Finals playing in a stacked WC... 5-1 record in the Finals better than any post-merger great except Jordan)

- 20/11/50% in regular season and 21/12/50% in the Playoffs, so he doesn't shit the bed under pressure. In fact, he gets better.

So he's got the Rings, the Hardware, the All-Around excellence, the Career and Peak value numbers, the team success, etc, etc.

There should be no question that Duncan has a legit argument for #4 all-time.

I just wanted you to discuss further.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Dissect his career for us please.

Are you serious... ? Haven't you been paying attention the last 18 years?

- Rings: 5 (among all-time greats only Jordan has more post-merger)

- Finals MVP: 3 (among all-time greats only Jordan has more)

- 2 regular season MVP's (Top 5 in voting 9 times)

- 18 combined All First Team selections (10 NBA / 8 Defense - only Jordan has more among the contenders for #2 post-merger, an indication that Tim was an elite player on both ends of the court during his era. Magic and Bird can't say that).

- Team success (50 or more wins 17 out of 18 seasons; only season less was the lockout of 99... 9 trips to the Conference Finals playing in a stacked WC... 5-1 record in the Finals better than any post-merger great except Jordan)

- 20/11/50% in regular season and 21/12/50% in the Playoffs, so he doesn't shit the bed under pressure. In fact, he gets better.

So he's got the Rings, the Hardware, the All-Around excellence, the Career and Peak value numbers, the team success, etc, etc.

There should be no question that Duncan has a legit argument for #4 all-time.

I just wanted you to discuss further.

[l3bron]

Duncan.

I don't believe Bird nor Magic could replicate what Duncan has done for the San Antonio Spurs. What Duncan has done with the Spurs for ~18 years is unbelievable. He's anchored the most successful sports franchise in North America in the last 20 years. Disclaimer: A large part of that is health.

[americaninfidel]

Duncan.

I don't believe Bird nor Magic could replicate what Duncan has done for the San Antonio Spurs. What Duncan has done with the Spurs for ~18 years is unbelievable. He's anchored the most successful sports franchise in North America in the last 20 years. Disclaimer: A large part of that is health.

A large part of what you implied in this post is that both Bird and Magic joined already-established NBA royalty. The Celtics and Lakers were (still are) the creme de la creme of the Association.
Just as Jordan made the Bulls relevant, Timmy has made the Spurs so. It's another strong point in the argument for him at #2.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Magic-Bird / Bird-Magic is certainly the popular choice (and they both have very compelling arguments), but I'll go out on a limb and say Duncan.

Bottom line: Duncan has the Championships, the Hardware, the Stats (Peak and Career value), and the All-Around excellence to justify putting him at #2.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but as the lone Spurs fan on the board I thought it would be too obviously homerish if I'd picked Timmy. But he definitely has an argument.

I've given this a little more thought. My main reason for picking Magic over Bird was that Magic had better longevity and more rings. And by that same measurement, Duncan actually tops Magic. Equal number of rings, but Timmy has a greater arc of longevity, and his record in the Finals is better.

I'm switching my vote to Duncan. (I'll edit my original post.)

Haven't we been through this?

More longevity? He played 9 more games... and only passed Bird at that point as the ground bound round mound of goo 4+ years after retiring.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Duncan.

I don't believe Bird nor Magic could replicate what Duncan has done for the San Antonio Spurs. What Duncan has done with the Spurs for ~18 years is unbelievable. He's anchored the most successful sports franchise in North America in the last 20 years. Disclaimer: A large part of that is health.

A large part of what you implied in this post is that both Bird and Magic joined already-established NBA royalty. The Celtics and Lakers were (still are) the creme de la creme of the Association.
Just as Jordan made the Bulls relevant, Timmy has made the Spurs so. It's another strong point in the argument for him at #2.

Boston was coming off a 29-win season.

That's like saying Eddy Curry joined the creme de la creme when he arrived.

[americaninfidel]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but as the lone Spurs fan on the board I thought it would be too obviously homerish if I'd picked Timmy. But he definitely has an argument.

I've given this a little more thought. My main reason for picking Magic over Bird was that Magic had better longevity and more rings. And by that same measurement, Duncan actually tops Magic. Equal number of rings, but Timmy has a greater arc of longevity, and his record in the Finals is better.

I'm switching my vote to Duncan. (I'll edit my original post.)

Haven't we been through this?

More longevity? He played 9 more games... and only passed Bird at that point as the ground bound round mound of goo 4+ years after retiring.

This supports the case for Duncan.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Would vote for Hakeem, but he doesn't have any support at this point in time it seems.

I believe that Dream's legacy and even reputation is one of the most misunderstood of any player that I can think of in NBA history. I'll get into it later.

Grizz is the only poster here or on ESPN that I've ever read a post from that wasn't almost universal praise toward Olajuwon. He didn't rip him... but he did acknowledge Olajuwon was not the patron saint of the NBA.

I think because we're more fixated on stats now... Hakeem is one of those cats who's perceived better now than when he played. And Bird is in the opposite camp.

Let's just say that nobody in 1992... or 1996 or even 2000 was choosing Olajuwon over Bird or Magic. And I still wouldn't...

[americaninfidel]

Duncan.

I don't believe Bird nor Magic could replicate what Duncan has done for the San Antonio Spurs. What Duncan has done with the Spurs for ~18 years is unbelievable. He's anchored the most successful sports franchise in North America in the last 20 years. Disclaimer: A large part of that is health.

A large part of what you implied in this post is that both Bird and Magic joined already-established NBA royalty. The Celtics and Lakers were (still are) the creme de la creme of the Association.
Just as Jordan made the Bulls relevant, Timmy has made the Spurs so. It's another strong point in the argument for him at #2.

Boston was coming off a 29-win season.

That's like saying Eddy Curry joined the creme de la creme when he arrived.

True, the Celtics were in a bad way at the time. Still, Bird didn't "make" the Celtics the way Duncan has "made" the Spurs, or the way Jordan "made" the Bulls.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I've given this a little more thought. My main reason for picking Magic over Bird was that Magic had better longevity and more rings. And by that same measurement, Duncan actually tops Magic. Equal number of rings, but Timmy has a greater arc of longevity, and his record in the Finals is better.

I'm switching my vote to Duncan. (I'll edit my original post.)

Haven't we been through this?

More longevity? He played 9 more games... and only passed Bird at that point as the ground bound round mound of goo 4+ years after retiring.

This supports the case for Duncan.

Sure. But I didn't even mention Duncan. I was wondering how multiple posters in recent days are bringing up longevity as a Magic advantage over Bird.

There are other advantages he has... I'm not seeing longevity as one when the difference is 9 games compiled in a shortened comeback season.

[AbeVigodaLive]

A large part of what you implied in this post is that both Bird and Magic joined already-established NBA royalty. The Celtics and Lakers were (still are) the creme de la creme of the Association.
Just as Jordan made the Bulls relevant, Timmy has made the Spurs so. It's another strong point in the argument for him at #2.

Boston was coming off a 29-win season.

That's like saying Eddy Curry joined the creme de la creme when he arrived.

True, the Celtics were in a bad way at the time. Still, Bird didn't "make" the Celtics the way Duncan has "made" the Spurs, or the way Jordan "made" the Bulls.

Ok. Don't know how that's relevant though.

Bird DID make a 29-win team into a 61-win team instantly. And that team didn't include Cousy, Heinshohn, Russell or ghosts of champions past. Magic DID win an NBA title with a magical FInals performance for the ages immediately. Mikan wasn't anywhere to be found.

In fact, up until that point, the Lakers were largely considered the red-headed stepchild to the fabled Celtics franchise. Magic helped swing that... and Kobe and Shaq kept it going...

[americaninfidel]

Boston was coming off a 29-win season.

That's like saying Eddy Curry joined the creme de la creme when he arrived.

True, the Celtics were in a bad way at the time. Still, Bird didn't "make" the Celtics the way Duncan has "made" the Spurs, or the way Jordan "made" the Bulls.

Ok. Don't know how that's relevant though.

Bird DID make a 29-win team into a 61-win team instantly. And that team didn't include Cousy, Heinshohn, Russell or ghosts of champions past. Magic DID win an NBA title with a magical FInals performance for the ages immediately. Mikan wasn't anywhere to be found.

In fact, up until that point, the Lakers were largely considered the red-headed stepchild to the fabled Celtics franchise. Magic helped swing that... and Kobe and Shaq kept it going...

Sure, but contrast the number of championships the Celtics have without Bird and the Lakers have without Magic, with the number of championships the Spurs have without Duncan or the Bulls have without Jordan.

[ripper76]

True, the Celtics were in a bad way at the time. Still, Bird didn't "make" the Celtics the way Duncan has "made" the Spurs, or the way Jordan "made" the Bulls.

Ok. Don't know how that's relevant though.

Bird DID make a 29-win team into a 61-win team instantly. And that team didn't include Cousy, Heinshohn, Russell or ghosts of champions past. Magic DID win an NBA title with a magical FInals performance for the ages immediately. Mikan wasn't anywhere to be found.

In fact, up until that point, the Lakers were largely considered the red-headed stepchild to the fabled Celtics franchise. Magic helped swing that... and Kobe and Shaq kept it going...

Sure, but contrast the number of championships the Celtics have without Bird and the Lakers have without Magic, with the number of championships the Spurs have without Duncan or the Bulls have without Jordan.

The Spurs and bulls are a step below the Lakers and Celtics in the NBA hierarchy all time.