2015 Anger General Greatest post-merger Players of All Time #1

[elmerjfudd]

I protest any list with Magic's name being listed while Bird's is not.

Seriously, 2 of your 3 candidates for GOAT post-merger were TEAMMATES and they only reeled off 5 titles together????

C'mon...

Sort of agreed. Not entirely sure when Magic/Bird became...

Magic.











Bird.



But I do know it's a recent phenomenon and seems to be most popular here where Rings, RINGS, RINGS!!!!!!!! seems to be the overriding criteria... context be damned.


[Note: I have Magic ahead of Bird on my list because rings is ONE of my criteria. But they're definitely in the same tier.]

Well, there are about 10+ Laker fans on this board to 2 or 3.

[wailuaFC]

so we are allowed to use players drafted pre merger, but we should exclude all their stats? I gotta go with rob on this one, bird deserves to be in the top 3, Kareem perhaps not so much, I'd need to look at his splits purely post merger. I think Jordan has this pretty easily being as his only two competitors for GOAT either didn't play post merger or was missing most of their prime

[Macrotus]

putting everything in context...Kareem.

Please, add your context to why a guy who was already 29 at the time of the merger should be in consideration for the top 3.......let alone #1.

what is the point of ranking player when his career is cut in half? It doesn't make sense whatsoever...or fair.

It's like me asking to rank player post 1995...

[Robceltsfan]

putting everything in context...Kareem.

Please, add your context to why a guy who was already 29 at the time of the merger should be in consideration for the top 3.......let alone #1.

what is the point of ranking player when his career is cut in half? It doesn't make sense whatsoever...or fair.

Doesn't matter what you think is "fair" or not, it matters what the OP asked.

Rank the GOAT players "post-merger". Pretty cut and dry.

[Robceltsfan]

In all honesty, based strictly on post-merger performance, I'd rank the following players ahead of Kareem:

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe


Kareem might deserve to end up somewhere in the 8-10 slot.

[Havlicekstealsit]

Post-merger you knock out Kareem's best statistical seasons and most of his personal accolades.

[wailuaFC]

PuuuhhllleeeaaZzze luhv my jordone

[Havlicekstealsit]

PuuuhhllleeeaaZzze luhv my jordone

JorDONE or LeBrawyn. To be fair the media approaches NBA "records since the merger" often, like with Kevin Love's double double mark claiming he broke Moses' streak when neither of them are close to Wilt's mark. Lazy research to make you feel better about today's guys.

[Robceltsfan]

And guys, I'm not trying to knock Kareem. I rank him #2 all-time on my list. I think it's pretty amazing that you can take away 4 MVPs and his 7 best statistical seasons and he's STILL better than 99% of NBA players to grace a court.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Rob working it.

Nice.

[wailuaFC]

PuuuhhllleeeaaZzze luhv my jordone

JorDONE or LeBrawyn. To be fair the media approaches NBA "records since the merger" often, like with Kevin Love's double double mark claiming he broke Moses' streak when neither of them are close to Wilt's mark. Lazy research to make you feel better about today's guys.

I'm just teasing haha, Jordan got voted #1 even with the pre merger guys

[lettherebehouse]

Magic

[876Stephen]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, Bird was a better player than magic. I obviously wasn't alive to watch them play in their primes but just judging off games I've watched on vhs, dvd and YouTube as well as reading a few anecdotes and of course comparing them statistically Bird has a clear edge. However the gap between Bird and magic as players isn't nearly big enough to offset the significance gap in longevity and personal accolades which is why I have magic third all time and for the purposes of this list, second.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, Bird was a better player than magic. I obviously wasn't alive to watch them play in their primes but just judging off games I've watched on vhs, dvd and YouTube as well as reading a few anecdotes and of course comparing them statistically Bird has a clear edge. However the gap between Bird and magic as players isn't nearly big enough to offset the significance gap in longevity and personal accolades which is why I have magic third all time and for the purposes of this list, second.

Please explain.

Magic played 35 more games than Bird... counting the playoffs.

Maybe you need to do more research beyond grainy VHS tapes.

[Y2K]

The inclusion of Kareem requires more in depth research and analysis than what we have seen so far in this thread.

Fpliii, This is your cue.

[Deez]

PuuuhhllleeeaaZzze luhv my jordone

lol, well it's pretty obvious post or not. It's Jordan at the top regardless in the majority of peoples eyes who watch basketball.

[AbeVigodaLive]

The inclusion of Kareem requires more in depth research and analysis than what we have seen so far in this thread.

Fpliii, This is your cue.

So you made a mistake and are hoping Fpliii bails you out?

[Y2K]

The inclusion of Kareem requires more in depth research and analysis than what we have seen so far in this thread.

Fpliii, This is your cue.

So you made a mistake and are hoping Fpliii bails you out?

Never. I just don't want to dominate the threads.

[FPL]

The inclusion of Kareem requires more in depth research and analysis than what we have seen so far in this thread.

Fpliii, This is your cue.

I will grab some quotes for you guys from Zander Hollander's annual publications when I get to my machine. In the mean time, here is some game tracking data on Kareem (courtesy of Dipper 13):

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1253571" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (BTW here's some peak MJ data too, since he probably will get in here: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1286698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

EDIT: Here are the scans in case anybody is interested:

http://www24.zippyshare.com/v/fGQxhAXU/file.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[FPL]

When your number of prime seasons is limited, you have to make up for it with a monster peak. Here's a game from the 77 playoffs (considered by most to be his best year, though KAJ actually felt he was better in 75-76 statistically) against Walton's Blazers:

phpBB [video]

EDIT: Here is the quote on 75-76:

The Lakers didn’t look to be too good that year-they had traded three excellent prospects and their center to get me-but I was happy to be with them. We trained at a college facility in LA, and though nobody likes training camp, I’d always come out smiling. “What are you so happy about in this funky little gym?” a teammates asked as we were leaving a particularly tough practice.

“Just think if this funky little gum was in Wisconsin and there was snow in tomorrow’s forecast,” I told him.

The Lakers had Lucius and Gail Goodrich and Cazzie Russell, but power forward was a problem, and the bench provided minimal support. I took a lot of heat in the papers, supposed to score, rebound, and bring a championship to LA all by myself. I did try. I felt, returning to the city and, it seemed, to the public eye, that I had something to prove. I led the league in rebounds and blocked shots and was second in scoring, but the team was the NBA’s second to worst in defense, and we finished fourth in our division. I won the MVP for the fourth time, but it was not enough. I’ve said often that an individual’s play cannot carry one team or consistently beat another, and the 1975-76 campaign bears me out; I had the best statistical season of my career, and we missed the playoffs by two games.

and another on 76-77:

The Lakers were prepared that next fall. Working with a private coach named Pete Newell, forward Kermit Washington had spent the summer learning how to provide muscle under the boards. This rejuvenated Kermit was just what we needed. If I’m going to intimidate inside, switch off and help my teammates with my mobility, we’re going to need someone with the strength and tenacity to grab the rebounds from all those missed shots. Kermit was every bit that man. On offense, if the other team tried to double-team me with the power forward, they left Kermit alone for more rebounds, which was suichide. He had developed into a disciplined player, and his solidity freed me to move around even more, save in the knowledge that he was taking care of business underneath.

Lucius and Cazzie were back, and we had added Don Chaney in place of Gail Goodrich, so our defense was greatly improved. We moved from seventeenth in NBA team defense to fourth, and our offense remained potent. The season was going along fine; we had the best record in the league, until injury struck. Kermit went down with a knee in February 1977, and in March, Lucius got hurt again. Two of our starting five had to sit on the sidelines for the entire playoffs.

The playoffs are a time when strengths are solidified and weaknesses exploited. Without Kermit to crash for rebounds, we were vulnerable off the boards, and without Lucius, our offense suffered. We managed to beat Golden State in the opening round, but it took us seven games, and then we came up against the Portland Trail Blazers.

At full strength, Portland and the Lakers matched up excellently. We had beaten them three out of four during the regular season. Their backcourt of Lionel Hollins and Dave Twardzik was quick and smart, as were Lucius and Chaney. Forward Bob Gross had a nice shot and an uncanny court sense, almost like eyes in the back of his head; Cazzie was going fine for us. At power forward Maurice Lucas was having an All-Star year, both scoring and getting his tough rebounds. Kermit matched him, and they battled when they met.

Portland’s center was Bill Walton. Bill had come out of the same UCLA program that I had, had been taught and disciplined by John Wooden, and had learned his lessons well. Playing at his best, Bill played a lot of defense. He used his size and bulk to control the crucial rebounding area, going after every ball and also getting a lot of blocked shots. He was extremely quick and mobile, which made him difficult both to guard and box out. He had good moves to the offensive boards, but that was not really his strength. His prime asset was the ability to draw the double-team and then find his open teammates with crisp and accurate passes for the easy shot. He was a great passing center, selfless, excellent with the outlet pass to start the fast break, and he was fortunate enough to have a couch who recognized and encouraged his talents and teammates who complemented them and could execute. On top of that Bill played with true playground enthusiasm, he would have played basketball even if there was no prestige or pay involved; he just liked it, and that added a dimension to his game; he was out there having fun for a living.

He also was an interesting guy. Five years younger than I was, he had graduated from high school in 1970, and the whole ‘60s flower power ethic was still strong in him. He wore his hair long in a pony tail and his beard kind of shaggy. He not only held firm left-wing political views, but he was not bashful about speaking them. He was a Great White Hope that was legit, a white man with the chance to show the niggers how to play basketball, but he wouldn’t accept that role in life or the conditional tons of advertising money that the business establishment prepared to give him in return.

That season and in the previous two years Bill had been in the league we had played some good games against each other. He was developing into one of the NBA’s all-time great centers. He would bump me when I’d try to shoot the hook, and I had to do a lot of board work because he was an excellent rebounder. Fortunately, he wasn’t that offensive-minded, which meant that I could overplay him while he was looking to pass, then after he dished off, box him out and get the defensive rebound.

What I found offensive was the way that our relative talents were treated. I knew that white players got better press—that was obvious everywhere—but I was angry when, in order to exalt Bill Walton, the media started knocking me. If he played well against me, I was over the hill; if I excelled against him, it was no big deal. I could understand people debating whether he was better than I or I was better than he; it’s the sports fan’s endless speculation, part of the enjoyment of sports. But I resented people using him to knock me. When he started playing well the television commentators and newspaper columnists were tripping all over themselves saying, “Forget Kareem, it’s Bill.” They could promote Bill all they wanted,; he deserved it. But I had been Most Valuable Player four of the last six years—one trophy would be the highlight of most players’ careers—and I wanted the respect I had earned.

With Lucius and Kermit out of our playoff lineup, Portland beat us four straight. The games were close, the last three decided by under six points each, but all I read about in the papers and magazines was “Portland Shocks LA, Walton Outduels Jabbar.” I averaged thirty-five points a game; I was doing everything I could do, but I was playing against tough competition and not getting great help. Maurice Lucas out rebounded Don Ford something like fifty to twelve in four games, but the press stories read . . . “Walton made Kareem look terrible,” “Walton’s the greatest center ever to play the game.” There was something personal in the glee with which those opinions were reported; I felt as if another piece of me was being chipped away. I’ve had to deal with that ugly blend of racism and envy my entire career, and what it’s done to sharpen my killer instinct, made me super-intense. If I’ve become aloof and almost impervious to criticism, it’s because I’ve come to expect it. Still, it never feels good. You can bet if Bill and I had both been black, you wouldn’t have heard such crowing.