Scottie Pippen: "I was LeBron James before LeBron James"

[wailuaFC]

I can't believe bush, rob, and grizz were trying to use actual stats to support their arguments, tdks hyperbole, what ifs, and insults were much more of a convincing argument

[jordanzone]

One side has applied logic and facts on their side. The other has a desperate desire to make exaggerated and absurd claims in order to gain attention from people that he doesn't get in real life.

I feel confident in the way this one turned out, and will let people judge for themselves. YMMV of course.

..once again, as I stated previously(and what you denied lol), this is all driven by the anger some of you monkeys have towards Bulls fans...your words confirm that, seeing how you want to depict the end goal of this debate, lol...your buttons are being pushed, and that has exposed your inner Bulls fans hate...lol @ Bush being relegated as just another Bulls fans hater(although I'm not a Bulls fan)...

Yeah, the entire world is comprised of people who hate the Bulls, especially Jordan and Pippen. That's why if you polled 100 experts with no axe to grind, about 100 of them would choose LeBron over Pippen. I've defended Pippen many, many times here and on ESPN against some people who denigrate him in an over the top fashion. He was a great player in his own right, but the assessments of people who think objectively definitely put him in a tier below LeBron, not like there is shame in that.

..I really don't get how or why you guys distort what this thread is saying...this isn't about who is better, it is about the gap between them...they both play a similar game, one is better offensively, one is better defensively...we're talking about this "gap"...Bush states it's wide, that the offensive end is so HEAVILY favored in LeBron's favor that any discussion about the defensive side becomes irrelevant...

..let me state for the record that LeBron is the better overall player...but, the gap between them is not as great as some suggest...

[Robceltsfan]

..once again, as I stated previously(and what you denied lol), this is all driven by the anger some of you monkeys have towards Bulls fans...your words confirm that, seeing how you want to depict the end goal of this debate, lol...your buttons are being pushed, and that has exposed your inner Bulls fans hate...lol @ Bush being relegated as just another Bulls fans hater(although I'm not a Bulls fan)...

Yeah, the entire world is comprised of people who hate the Bulls, especially Jordan and Pippen. That's why if you polled 100 experts with no axe to grind, about 100 of them would choose LeBron over Pippen. I've defended Pippen many, many times here and on ESPN against some people who denigrate him in an over the top fashion. He was a great player in his own right, but the assessments of people who think objectively definitely put him in a tier below LeBron, not like there is shame in that.

..I really don't get how or why you guys distort what this thread is saying...this isn't about who is better, it is about the gap between them...they both play a similar game, one is better offensively, one is better defensively...we're talking about this "gap"...Bush states it's wide, that the offensive end is so HEAVILY favored in LeBron's favor that any discussion about the defensive side becomes irrelevant...

..let me state for the record that LeBron is the better overall player...but, the gap between them is not as great as some suggest...

The gap is huge.

You're talking about a guy who only made 7 All-NBA teams versus a 4-time league MVP. You're talking about a guy who likely wasn't quite good enough to LEAD a team to a Finals versus a guy who's been there 6 times and won twice. You're talking about a guy who played the #2 slot with the greatest SG of all-time versus a guy who was unequivocally the #1 playing along side the 4th/5th best shooting guard of all-time.

It honestly, seriously, isn't close at all.

[jordanzone]

Yeah, the entire world is comprised of people who hate the Bulls, especially Jordan and Pippen. That's why if you polled 100 experts with no axe to grind, about 100 of them would choose LeBron over Pippen. I've defended Pippen many, many times here and on ESPN against some people who denigrate him in an over the top fashion. He was a great player in his own right, but the assessments of people who think objectively definitely put him in a tier below LeBron, not like there is shame in that.

..I really don't get how or why you guys distort what this thread is saying...this isn't about who is better, it is about the gap between them...they both play a similar game, one is better offensively, one is better defensively...we're talking about this "gap"...Bush states it's wide, that the offensive end is so HEAVILY favored in LeBron's favor that any discussion about the defensive side becomes irrelevant...

..let me state for the record that LeBron is the better overall player...but, the gap between them is not as great as some suggest...

The gap is huge.

You're talking about a guy who only made 7 All-NBA teams versus a 4-time league MVP. You're talking about a guy who likely wasn't quite good enough to LEAD a team to a Finals versus a guy who's been there 6 times and won twice. You're talking about a guy who played the #2 slot with the greatest SG of all-time versus a guy who was unequivocally the #1 playing along side the 4th/5th best shooting guard of all-time.

It honestly, seriously, isn't close at all.

.."who likely wasn't"....which I will revert back to what I have maintained, this is all speculation...we don't know what Pip would do as a leader coming out of the gate...Pip in this era does better, imo...we can do this type of shit all day, but in the end, there are no true answers...LeBron is the better player, the gap is not what most of you make it out to be, IMO...you have your opinions too, and like I said to Bush, we'll agree to disagree...to suggest there is a right answer is foolish...

[Robceltsfan]

..I really don't get how or why you guys distort what this thread is saying...this isn't about who is better, it is about the gap between them...they both play a similar game, one is better offensively, one is better defensively...we're talking about this "gap"...Bush states it's wide, that the offensive end is so HEAVILY favored in LeBron's favor that any discussion about the defensive side becomes irrelevant...

..let me state for the record that LeBron is the better overall player...but, the gap between them is not as great as some suggest...

The gap is huge.

You're talking about a guy who only made 7 All-NBA teams versus a 4-time league MVP. You're talking about a guy who likely wasn't quite good enough to LEAD a team to a Finals versus a guy who's been there 6 times and won twice. You're talking about a guy who played the #2 slot with the greatest SG of all-time versus a guy who was unequivocally the #1 playing along side the 4th/5th best shooting guard of all-time.

It honestly, seriously, isn't close at all.

.."who likely wasn't"....which I will revert back to what I have maintained, this is all speculation...we don't know what Pip would do as a leader coming out of the gate...Pip in this era does better, imo...we can do this type of shit all day, but in the end, there are no true answers...LeBron is the better player, the gap is not what most of you make it out to be, IMO...you have your opinions too, and like I said to Bush, we'll agree to disagree...to suggest there is a right answer is foolish...

I don't agree that it's foolish at all.

Pippen was given the keys to the lead role for over a year and a half dead in the middle of his prime and he didn't do anything to suggest that he was a Lebron James-type of player. There are mountains and mountains of statistical evidence to suggest that Lebron is one of the absolute greatest basketball players to grace a court in the NBA, and there are mountains of evidence to suggest that Pippen is probably the greatest sidekick in history other than maybe Kobe with Shaq.

I will agree that the final verdict is opinion based, but some opinions are formed on factual evidence, and others are formed with biased hearts.

[ripper76]

[thedangerouskitchen]

I can't believe bush, rob, and grizz were trying to use actual stats to support their arguments, tdks hyperbole, what ifs, and insults were much more of a convincing argument

I used their same stats too...

Jimmy Butler had more Offensive and Defensive Win Shares and a better Offensive and Defensive Rating than did LeBron last season.. . clearly Butler is superior.

We all agree, correct?

[thedangerouskitchen]

..once again, as I stated previously(and what you denied lol), this is all driven by the anger some of you monkeys have towards Bulls fans...your words confirm that, seeing how you want to depict the end goal of this debate, lol...your buttons are being pushed, and that has exposed your inner Bulls fans hate...lol @ Bush being relegated as just another Bulls fans hater(although I'm not a Bulls fan)...

Yeah, the entire world is comprised of people who hate the Bulls, especially Jordan and Pippen. That's why if you polled 100 experts with no axe to grind, about 100 of them would choose LeBron over Pippen. I've defended Pippen many, many times here and on ESPN against some people who denigrate him in an over the top fashion. He was a great player in his own right, but the assessments of people who think objectively definitely put him in a tier below LeBron, not like there is shame in that.

..I really don't get how or why you guys distort what this thread is saying...this isn't about who is better, it is about the gap between them...they both play a similar game, one is better offensively, one is better defensively...we're talking about this "gap"...Bush states it's wide, that the offensive end is so HEAVILY favored in LeBron's favor that any discussion about the defensive side becomes irrelevant...

..let me state for the record that LeBron is the better overall player...but, the gap between them is not as great as some suggest...

Well said... unless you cite "stats"... in which case Jimmy Butler --> LeBron

[thedangerouskitchen]

The gap is huge.

You're talking about a guy who only made 7 All-NBA teams versus a 4-time league MVP. You're talking about a guy who likely wasn't quite good enough to LEAD a team to a Finals versus a guy who's been there 6 times and won twice. You're talking about a guy who played the #2 slot with the greatest SG of all-time versus a guy who was unequivocally the #1 playing along side the 4th/5th best shooting guard of all-time.

It honestly, seriously, isn't close at all.

.."who likely wasn't"....which I will revert back to what I have maintained, this is all speculation...we don't know what Pip would do as a leader coming out of the gate...Pip in this era does better, imo...we can do this type of shit all day, but in the end, there are no true answers...LeBron is the better player, the gap is not what most of you make it out to be, IMO...you have your opinions too, and like I said to Bush, we'll agree to disagree...to suggest there is a right answer is foolish...

I don't agree that it's foolish at all.

Pippen was given the keys to the lead role for over a year and a half dead in the middle of his prime and he didn't do anything to suggest that he was a Lebron James-type of player.

CLEARLY you were a fan of volleyball or chess back in 1994 because you certainly didn't follow the NBA.

[Bush4Ever]

..I really don't get how or why you guys distort what this thread is saying...this isn't about who is better, it is about the gap between them...they both play a similar game, one is better offensively, one is better defensively...we're talking about this "gap"...Bush states it's wide, that the offensive end is so HEAVILY favored in LeBron's favor that any discussion about the defensive side becomes irrelevant...

I said no such thing.

I said the gap between them offensively (which is large) overwhelms whatever the impact of the relative differences are on defense, *especially* considering offensive is weighed more heavily than defense at the individual level.*

That doesn't mean you can't talk about defense, or don't throw it into the pot when evaluating the difference. It just means you give it a proper weight relative to other things.

Think of it this way...

Lebron is getting an A+ in a three credit course, and a B+/A- in a one credit course.
Pippen is getting a B/B+ in the three credit course, and a A+ in the one credit course.


*I say this under the assumption that we all agree that Pippen isn't making up substantial ground in passing/rebounding/"intangibles", etc... (I don't think he would lose much ground there however, I personally think it's roughly a wash and not worth fussing over here in this thread)

[wailuaFC]

I can't believe bush, rob, and grizz were trying to use actual stats to support their arguments, tdks hyperbole, what ifs, and insults were much more of a convincing argument

I used their same stats too...

Jimmy Butler had more Offensive and Defensive Win Shares and a better Offensive and Defensive Rating than did LeBron last season.. . clearly Butler is superior.

We all agree, correct?

Do you understand the difference in sample sizes?

[thedangerouskitchen]

..I really don't get how or why you guys distort what this thread is saying...this isn't about who is better, it is about the gap between them...they both play a similar game, one is better offensively, one is better defensively...we're talking about this "gap"...Bush states it's wide, that the offensive end is so HEAVILY favored in LeBron's favor that any discussion about the defensive side becomes irrelevant...

I said no such thing.

I said the gap between them offensively (which is large) overwhelms whatever the impact of the relative differences are on defense, *especially* considering offensive is weighed more heavily than defense at the individual level.*

That doesn't mean you can't talk about defense, or don't throw it into the pot when evaluating the difference. It just means you give it a proper weight relative to other things.

Actually you said "the gap between Lebron and Pippen in scoring ability is several times greater than the gap between them on defense".

...and how, exactly, do you weigh the difference of value between Offense and Defense when we're talking about (arguably) the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history?

DWS... +/-... All Defense selections...??

Again... nonsense.

[thedangerouskitchen]

I can't believe bush, rob, and grizz were trying to use actual stats to support their arguments, tdks hyperbole, what ifs, and insults were much more of a convincing argument

I used their same stats too...

Jimmy Butler had more Offensive and Defensive Win Shares and a better Offensive and Defensive Rating than did LeBron last season.. . clearly Butler is superior.

We all agree, correct?

Do you understand the difference in sample sizes?

Okay, so let me revise my statement: You will agree that Jimmy Butler was superior to LeBron Offensively "last season".

Correct?

[thedangerouskitchen]

..I really don't get how or why you guys distort what this thread is saying...this isn't about who is better, it is about the gap between them...they both play a similar game, one is better offensively, one is better defensively...we're talking about this "gap"...Bush states it's wide, that the offensive end is so HEAVILY favored in LeBron's favor that any discussion about the defensive side becomes irrelevant...

I said no such thing.

I said the gap between them offensively (which is large) overwhelms whatever the impact of the relative differences are on defense, *especially* considering offensive is weighed more heavily than defense at the individual level.*

That doesn't mean you can't talk about defense, or don't throw it into the pot when evaluating the difference. It just means you give it a proper weight relative to other things.

Actually you said "the gap between Lebron and Pippen in scoring ability is several times greater than the gap between them on defense".

...and how, exactly, do you weigh the difference of value between Offense and Defense when we're talking about (arguably) the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history?

DWS... +/-... All Defense selections...??

Again... nonsense.

BUMP

[thedangerouskitchen]

I used their same stats too...

Jimmy Butler had more Offensive and Defensive Win Shares and a better Offensive and Defensive Rating than did LeBron last season.. . clearly Butler is superior.

We all agree, correct?

Do you understand the difference in sample sizes?

Okay, so let me revise my statement: You will agree that Jimmy Butler was superior to LeBron Offensively "last season".

Correct?

BUMP

[thedangerouskitchen]

.."who likely wasn't"....which I will revert back to what I have maintained, this is all speculation...we don't know what Pip would do as a leader coming out of the gate...Pip in this era does better, imo...we can do this type of shit all day, but in the end, there are no true answers...LeBron is the better player, the gap is not what most of you make it out to be, IMO...you have your opinions too, and like I said to Bush, we'll agree to disagree...to suggest there is a right answer is foolish...

I don't agree that it's foolish at all.

Pippen was given the keys to the lead role for over a year and a half dead in the middle of his prime and he didn't do anything to suggest that he was a Lebron James-type of player.

CLEARLY you were a fan of volleyball or chess back in 1994 because you certainly didn't follow the NBA.

BUMP

[ripper76]

number1lebronfan, 3 posts in a row that say "BUMP" is awfully close to spamming.

If you're unfamiliar with the rules, they are stickied at the top of each forum, and I know they've been explained to you in detail many times.

[thedangerouskitchen]

number1lebronfan, 3 posts in a row that say "BUMP" is awfully close to spamming.

If you're unfamiliar with the rules, they are stickied at the top of each forum, and I know they've been explained to you in detail many times.

[wailuaFC]

Do you understand the difference in sample sizes?

Okay, so let me revise my statement: You will agree that Jimmy Butler was superior to LeBron Offensively "last season".

Correct?

BUMP

Sample size not only for time, but for amount of stats used. They presented multiple stats that spanned multiple seasons, you picked a single stat from a single season.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Okay, so let me revise my statement: You will agree that Jimmy Butler was superior to LeBron Offensively "last season".

Correct?

BUMP

Sample size not only for time, but for amount of stats used. They presented multiple stats that spanned multiple seasons, you picked a single stat from a single season.

I used Offensive / Defensive Win Shares and Offensive/Defensive Rating to conclude that Butler >>> LeBron last season.

What other "stats" did they use... +/-