Scottie Pippen: "I was LeBron James before LeBron James"

[elmouse03]

I am watching this new show called beat the champion with Pippen on it and it is basically a pros vs joes reboot.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Equally sad is when people attempt to pass their opinion off as fact, then deflect from the issue when challenged.

That's all I'll say. You all can figure it out.

Something not being a fact doesn't equate to all opinions being equally valid or well-reasoned.

Pippen and Lebron are not close in overall value. Lebron is clearly on a different tier. Literally every single piece of evidence converges on that idea. Raw statistics, advanced analytics, the eye test (when sober), hardware, expert ranking, etc...

You claimed "the gap between Lebron and Pippen in scoring ability is several times greater than the gap between them on defense."

Crappola... as I refuted previously.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Pippen got schooled by a 21 year old Kobe in the playoffs lol


:LG2:

Not true, because he wasn't guarding him.

and even if true, LeBronze got lit up by JJ Barea, Jason Terry, Kawhi Leonard and Andre Iguodala in the NBA Finals!!!!!!!

Whoooopsie.... and don't forget Derrick Rose in the Semi's this year, burying jumper after jumper right in James' grill.

LeBron's Defense isn't anywhere even remotely close to the level Pippen was on.

[elmouse03]

I wouldn't compare the 2. Pip couldn't score like Lebron could and LeBron couldn't defend like Pip could.

I don't even know why people compare LeBron to Jordan as their games are not at all similar in any way.

[Bush4Ever]

You claimed "the gap between Lebron and Pippen in scoring ability is several times greater than the gap between them on defense."

Crappola... as I refuted previously.

You babbled previously you mean. Saying things isn't "refuting".

You have to be truly delusional to think a dude who generally hung out in the teens/low 20s as a scorer was in the same stratosphere as Lebron as a scorer.

You are either an idiot or arguing in bad faith if you can't admit this straight away. It's about as obvious a point as there is.

And that gap is the big driver in the difference in their overall value as players. It's obvious to anyone without an agenda

[Smelters]

LOL that picture cracks me up everytime.

I still can't figure out if he thought it was a good looking picture or he just doesn't care how dumb he looks.

He has pointy elf ears.

In all seriousness he looks like the stereotypical white trash meth-head.

"white trash" lol!!!

[thedangerouskitchen]

You claimed "the gap between Lebron and Pippen in scoring ability is several times greater than the gap between them on defense."

Crappola... as I refuted previously.

You babbled previously you mean. Saying things isn't "refuting".

You have to be truly delusional to think a dude who generally hung out in the teens/low 20s as a scorer was in the same stratosphere as Lebron as a scorer.

You are either an idiot or arguing in bad faith if you can't admit this straight away. It's about as obvious a point as there is.

And that gap is the big driver in the difference in their overall value as players. It's obvious to anyone without an agenda

Nice job COMPLETELY deflecting from your idiotic claim about their Defense, dope... and the fact remains James isn't on the same stratosphere Defensively as was Pippen (and Defense is half the game).

Also, as noted, when you compare apple-apples (ie' lead dog Pip 94 and 95 to lead-dog James) the Scoring gap is not that wide considering Pippen would be getting to the line a lot more than 5 times a game if he played in today's perimeter/ wing coddled era... so it's clearly realistic to say that lead dog Pip would be averaging 22-24 PPG in today perimeter-friendly era.

You're like a horse with blinders... looking at stats at face-value. Your ignorance is showing.

[LookAway]

Pippen would be Kahwi Leonard at best in today's NBA......and that's not a bad thing at all

The MVP who shut down Lebron so bad he had to leave Florida? I never thought Pippen would be THAT good.



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[kobeunderbite]

Pippen got schooled by a 21 year old Kobe in the playoffs lol


:LG2:

LOL that picture cracks me up everytime.

I still can't figure out if he thought it was a good looking picture or he just doesn't care how dumb he looks.

His hairline is hilarious.

[elartman1973]

I was pooky before pooky

[Bush4Ever]

Nice job COMPLETELY deflecting from your idiotic claim about their Defense, dope... and the fact remains James isn't on the same stratosphere Defensively as was Pippen (and Defense is half the game).

Lebron isn't as good as Pippen was defensively, but he was an all-defensive first team selection (earned usually) a number of years, and has been considered a top 5 defensive player for a multi-year stretch (not now, but previously).

On the other hand, Pippen finished in the top 10 in scoring *once*, and currently clocks in at a powerful 160th all-time in points per game (189th if you count the ABA), with Lebron clocking in at 4th (although that will drop slightly over time). If you want to compare something other than volume, Pippen is 76th all-time in offensive +/-. Lebron is 1st (but might drop slightly over time).

If you want to look at the more advanced analytics, you would see that they diverge much more radically on offense than defense.

Looking at offensive win shares:
Pippen's best years: 7.8, 7.1, 7.0, 5.9, 5.2, 5.1
Lebron's best years: 14.6, 13.7, 13.3, 12.3, 12.0

Looking at defensive win shares:
Pippen's best years: 6.7, 6.0, 5.5, 5.4, 5.3
Lebron's best years: 6.5, 5.7, 5.3, 5.2, 4.7

Mind you, the Bulls in those years had way more wins to divide up in the first place.

So how about overall impact (which relates to my "on a different tier" comments) ?

Looking at wins over replacement player:

Pippen's best years: 20.0, 19.4, 18.4, 18.1, 17.2 (no years leading the league)
Lebron's best years: 31.3, 29.4, 27.2, 26.5, 25.7 (all years leading the league)

And defense is half the game at the team level. It's not equally valuable as offensive production at the individual level, because individuals can influence team offense much more easily than individuals can influence team defense, which requires much more of a united front. That's why the top earners in the league are virtually always going to be extremely talented offensively. There are guys who make big bucks who are relatively average or even below-average defensive players. There are virtually never super big earners who are defensive studs with mediocre offense, especially at the wings.

Pippen *was* a great player, and *was* better than Lebron defensively for sure, but you are woefully underestimating the degree of difference between them on offense, and overestimating the relative weight of defense at the individual level (compared to individual offense at the wings).

[Robceltsfan]

Bulls fans, you can't have it both ways in this thread.

Either Lebron James is CONSIDERABLY better than Pippen...

OR

Michael Jordan required a player that is capable of winning 4 MVPs and leading teams to championships....JUST TO WIN A SINGLE PLAYOFF SERIES.


Pick your poison boys.

[jordanzone]

..lol, people are saying things simply because they don't like certain Bulls fans on here, and that is gold...there is nothing to discuss ladies, this issue is speculative at best and nothing more...unless you can show me some sustained lead dog stats for Pip, or show me the link that shows how Pips era and this era are similar...

..the best part is using Pips numbers AS A SIDEKICK TO THE GOAT, to state he couldn't score like Bron, OR, use a 1 year sample size AFTER having played 7 years as a sidekick...

...nothing Pip says is ridiculous, but those who do not like Bulls fans will tell you it is...it's that simple...

[Deez]

Bulls fans, you can't have it both ways in this thread.

Either Lebron James is CONSIDERABLY better than Pippen...

OR

Michael Jordan required a player that is capable of winning 4 MVPs and leading teams to championships....JUST TO WIN A SINGLE PLAYOFF SERIES.


Pick your poison boys.

Obviously Lebron is better than Pippen. Anybody saying otherwise is trolling the fuck out of you. Also there are guys in double A right now that are below MJ for batting average/stats etc so if he would be let go without his "name" then these guys will be too then huh?

[Bush4Ever]

..lol, people are saying things simply because they don't like certain Bulls fans on here, and that is gold...there is nothing to discuss ladies, this issue is speculative at best and nothing more...

It's speculative in the same way that we can "only" speculate you won't get a sex change operation today.

It is an opinion, but it's an opinion confirmed by every single piece of evidence on the table.

[Robceltsfan]

..lol, people are saying things simply because they don't like certain Bulls fans on here, and that is gold...there is nothing to discuss ladies, this issue is speculative at best and nothing more...unless you can show me some sustained lead dog stats for Pip, or show me the link that shows how Pips era and this era are similar...

..the best part is using Pips numbers AS A SIDEKICK TO THE GOAT, to state he couldn't score like Bron, OR, use a 1 year sample size AFTER having played 7 years as a sidekick...

...nothing Pip says is ridiculous, but those who do not like Bulls fans will tell you it is...it's that simple...

At the age of 28 Lebron shared a court with proven scorers in Wade and Bosh while Pippen shared the court with B.J. Armstrong and Horace Grant.

Lebron averaged 17.8 FGA's and 37.9 MPG.
Pippen averaged 17.8 FGA's and 38.3 MPG.

Scottie: 22.0/8.7/5.6/49.1%/32.0%/66.0%
Lebron: 26.8/8.0/7.3/56.5%/40.6%/75.3%

Lebron had to share, Scottie was the ABSOLUTE #1 option.....and Lebron's numbers shit on Pippen's.

You can make any excuse you want for this. They aren't in the same zip code.

[Deez]

..lol, people are saying things simply because they don't like certain Bulls fans on here, and that is gold...there is nothing to discuss ladies, this issue is speculative at best and nothing more...unless you can show me some sustained lead dog stats for Pip, or show me the link that shows how Pips era and this era are similar...

..the best part is using Pips numbers AS A SIDEKICK TO THE GOAT, to state he couldn't score like Bron, OR, use a 1 year sample size AFTER having played 7 years as a sidekick...

...nothing Pip says is ridiculous, but those who do not like Bulls fans will tell you it is...it's that simple...

At the age of 28 Lebron shared a court with proven scorers in Wade and Bosh while Pippen shared the court with B.J. Armstrong and Horace Grant.

Lebron averaged 17.8 FGA's and 37.9 MPG.
Pippen averaged 17.8 FGA's and 38.3 MPG.

Scottie: 22.0/8.7/5.6/49.1%/32.0%/66.0%
Lebron: 26.8/8.0/7.3/56.5%/40.6%/75.3%

Lebron had to share, Scottie was the ABSOLUTE #1 option.....and Lebron's numbers shit on Pippen's.

You can make any excuse you want for this. They aren't in the same zip code.

Yes and having those teammates takes a shit ton of pressure off Lebron where as Pippen had the load on himself.

[jordanzone]

..lol, people are saying things simply because they don't like certain Bulls fans on here, and that is gold...there is nothing to discuss ladies, this issue is speculative at best and nothing more...

It's speculative in the same way that we can "only" speculate you won't get a sex change operation today.

It is an opinion, but it's an opinion confirmed by every single piece of evidence on the table.

..like I said, this is all driven by anger towards one fan base...and I'm not even a Bulls fan per se...

[Robceltsfan]

..lol, people are saying things simply because they don't like certain Bulls fans on here, and that is gold...there is nothing to discuss ladies, this issue is speculative at best and nothing more...unless you can show me some sustained lead dog stats for Pip, or show me the link that shows how Pips era and this era are similar...

..the best part is using Pips numbers AS A SIDEKICK TO THE GOAT, to state he couldn't score like Bron, OR, use a 1 year sample size AFTER having played 7 years as a sidekick...

...nothing Pip says is ridiculous, but those who do not like Bulls fans will tell you it is...it's that simple...

At the age of 28 Lebron shared a court with proven scorers in Wade and Bosh while Pippen shared the court with B.J. Armstrong and Horace Grant.

Lebron averaged 17.8 FGA's and 37.9 MPG.
Pippen averaged 17.8 FGA's and 38.3 MPG.

Scottie: 22.0/8.7/5.6/49.1%/32.0%/66.0%
Lebron: 26.8/8.0/7.3/56.5%/40.6%/75.3%

Lebron had to share, Scottie was the ABSOLUTE #1 option.....and Lebron's numbers shit on Pippen's.

You can make any excuse you want for this. They aren't in the same zip code.

Yes and having those teammates takes a shit ton of pressure off Lebron where as Pippen had the load on himself.

So why couldn't he post better numbers when he had the greatest offensive player of all-time in the lineup then? Pippen only shot better than 50% twice in his career and never was higher than 37% from three.

Like I said, you guys can find plenty of excuses (or say that you're simply trolling), but none of it changes the fact that Lebron is much closer to Jordan than Pippen is to Lebron.

[Deez]

At the age of 28 Lebron shared a court with proven scorers in Wade and Bosh while Pippen shared the court with B.J. Armstrong and Horace Grant.

Lebron averaged 17.8 FGA's and 37.9 MPG.
Pippen averaged 17.8 FGA's and 38.3 MPG.

Scottie: 22.0/8.7/5.6/49.1%/32.0%/66.0%
Lebron: 26.8/8.0/7.3/56.5%/40.6%/75.3%

Lebron had to share, Scottie was the ABSOLUTE #1 option.....and Lebron's numbers shit on Pippen's.

You can make any excuse you want for this. They aren't in the same zip code.

Yes and having those teammates takes a shit ton of pressure off Lebron where as Pippen had the load on himself.

So why couldn't he post better numbers when he had the greatest offensive player of all-time in the lineup then? Pippen only shot better than 50% twice in his career and never was higher than 37% from three.

Like I said, you guys can find plenty of excuses (or say that you're simply trolling), but none of it changes the fact that Lebron is much closer to Jordan than Pippen is to Lebron.

I've stated many times in here that Lebron is better. Not sure how that's trolling when I'm flat out agreeing that he isn't as good as Lebron.