elmouse03 wrote:
Well then we are obviously in a stand still as nothing you say will change my mind and nothing I say will change yours but in all I am still voting for Isiah.
Perhaps you should at least go to the site and check the numbers. Like I said, we often see and remember what we want to see and remember. The facts as I remember them judged Barkley and Drob a little too harshley, but they were actually very kind to Isiah. His advanced metrics are pretty awful relative to his teammates. I know its not the be all, but its hard to ignore how bad some of them are relative to his teammates and era to be ranked so high. It's a clink, clink, clunk...
I get what you're saying grizz, but I think you are likewise discounting the intangibles. The problem is, there's (by definition) no measure for the intangibles.
Isiah was the leader of those Pistons championship teams, and his grit and guts played a large role in those rings.
If push came to shove, in the Finals, I'd rather have Zeke than Barkley, though I know you disagree.
Yes I completely disagree. To me, its a cop out. I don't have a real argument, so I will make one up as I go along with the intangibles argument is what it sounds like
Fact is, those "other guys" had really great on court production. Especially in the 1989 title season. Pretending that Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Rodman, Salley, Mahorn, Johnson weren't an amazing team is trying to rewrite history with an agenda.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Perhaps you should at least go to the site and check the numbers. Like I said, we often see and remember what we want to see and remember. The facts as I remember them judged Barkley and Drob a little too harshley, but they were actually very kind to Isiah. His advanced metrics are pretty awful relative to his teammates. I know its not the be all, but its hard to ignore how bad some of them are relative to his teammates and era to be ranked so high. It's a clink, clink, clunk...
I get what you're saying grizz, but I think you are likewise discounting the intangibles. The problem is, there's (by definition) no measure for the intangibles.
Isiah was the leader of those Pistons championship teams, and his grit and guts played a large role in those rings.
If push came to shove, in the Finals, I'd rather have Zeke than Barkley, though I know you disagree.
Yes I completely disagree. To me, its a cop out. I don't have a real argument, so I will make one up as I go along with the intangibles argument is what it sounds like
Fact is, those "other guys" had really great on court production. Especially in the 1989 title season. Pretending that Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Rodman, Salley, Mahorn, Johnson weren't an amazing team is trying to rewrite history with an agenda.
I'm not pretending that Dumars, et al, weren't an amazing team, any more than I was that Bird's Celtics didn't have all-star talent when I voted for him.
Bird's Celtics.
Isiah's Pistons.
I say Thomas deserves this spot. Again, I know you disagree.
americaninfidel wrote:
I get what you're saying grizz, but I think you are likewise discounting the intangibles. The problem is, there's (by definition) no measure for the intangibles.
Isiah was the leader of those Pistons championship teams, and his grit and guts played a large role in those rings.
If push came to shove, in the Finals, I'd rather have Zeke than Barkley, though I know you disagree.
Yes I completely disagree. To me, its a cop out. I don't have a real argument, so I will make one up as I go along with the intangibles argument is what it sounds like
Fact is, those "other guys" had really great on court production. Especially in the 1989 title season. Pretending that Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Rodman, Salley, Mahorn, Johnson weren't an amazing team is trying to rewrite history with an agenda.
I'm not pretending that Dumars, et al, weren't an amazing team, any more than I was that Bird's Celtics didn't have all-star talent when I voted for him.
Bird's Celtics.
Isiah's Pistons.
I say Thomas deserves this spot. Again, I know you disagree.
In the 1989 playoffs for the Pistons, Isiah had BY MILES, the worst TS% on the Pistons and the worst differential in offensive and defensive rating on the entire team, including bench players.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Perhaps you should at least go to the site and check the numbers. Like I said, we often see and remember what we want to see and remember. The facts as I remember them judged Barkley and Drob a little too harshley, but they were actually very kind to Isiah. His advanced metrics are pretty awful relative to his teammates. I know its not the be all, but its hard to ignore how bad some of them are relative to his teammates and era to be ranked so high. It's a clink, clink, clunk...
I get what you're saying grizz, but I think you are likewise discounting the intangibles. The problem is, there's (by definition) no measure for the intangibles.
Isiah was the leader of those Pistons championship teams, and his grit and guts played a large role in those rings.
If push came to shove, in the Finals, I'd rather have Zeke than Barkley, though I know you disagree.
Yes I completely disagree. To me, its a cop out. I don't have a real argument, so I will make one up as I go along with the intangibles argument is what it sounds like
Fact is, those "other guys" had really great on court production. Especially in the 1989 title season. Pretending that Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Rodman, Salley, Mahorn, Johnson weren't an amazing team is trying to rewrite history with an agenda.
2× NBA champion (1999, 2003)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1995)
10× NBA All-Star (1990–1996, 1998, 2000–2001)
4× All-NBA First Team (1991–1992, 1995–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1994, 1998)
4× All-NBA Third Team (1990, 1993, 2000–2001)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1992)
4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1991–1992, 1995–1996)
4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1990, 1993–1994, 1998)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1990)
NBA scoring champion (1994)
NBA blocks leader (1992)
NBA rebounding leader (1991)
2,954 career blocked shots are a San Antonio Spurs record
One of two players in NBA history to lead the league in scoring (1993–94), rebounding (1990–91) and blocked shots (1991–92) during his career
Only player in NBA history to rank among top five players in the league in rebounding, blocks and steals in the same season: 1991–92
Ranked first in blocks (4.49 bpg), fourth in rebounding (12.2 rpg) and fifth in steals (2.32 spg).
Only player in NBA history to rank among the top seven players in the league in five statistics in the same season: 1991–92
Spurs record the previous season: 21-61
Spurs record in Robinson's rookie year: 56-26
Yes I completely disagree. To me, its a cop out. I don't have a real argument, so I will make one up as I go along with the intangibles argument is what it sounds like
Fact is, those "other guys" had really great on court production. Especially in the 1989 title season. Pretending that Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre, Rodman, Salley, Mahorn, Johnson weren't an amazing team is trying to rewrite history with an agenda.
I'm not pretending that Dumars, et al, weren't an amazing team, any more than I was that Bird's Celtics didn't have all-star talent when I voted for him.
Bird's Celtics.
Isiah's Pistons.
I say Thomas deserves this spot. Again, I know you disagree.
In the 1989 playoffs for the Pistons, Isiah had BY MILES, the worst TS% on the Pistons and the worst differential in offensive and defensive rating on the entire team, including bench players.
That team was so successful due to what I call the 3D effect:
americaninfidel wrote:
I'm not pretending that Dumars, et al, weren't an amazing team, any more than I was that Bird's Celtics didn't have all-star talent when I voted for him.
Bird's Celtics.
Isiah's Pistons.
I say Thomas deserves this spot. Again, I know you disagree.
In the 1989 playoffs for the Pistons, Isiah had BY MILES, the worst TS% on the Pistons and the worst differential in offensive and defensive rating on the entire team, including bench players.
That team was so successful due to what I call the 3D effect:
1. Depth
2. Defense
3. Daly
I agree completely. Zeke gets more credit because he was the most visible face and not on merit. Comparing his role and overall contribution to team success on those teams compared to Jordan or Bird on their teams is......
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
In the 1989 playoffs for the Pistons, Isiah had BY MILES, the worst TS% on the Pistons and the worst differential in offensive and defensive rating on the entire team, including bench players.
That team was so successful due to what I call the 3D effect:
1. Depth
2. Defense
3. Daly
I agree completely. Zeke gets more credit because he was the most visible face and not on merit. Comparing his role and overall contribution to team success on those teams compared to Jordan or Bird on their teams is...... dumb.
I hated Zeke. I was glad when Malone busted his forehead open. But I can put that aside and give him his dues. It just won't be in the top 25.
Ppl don't pay much attention to it but Zeke turned the ball over at a pretty high rate no matter what pace they played at.
Again, I was the biggest Isiah Thomas rube on this board. Yet, there's no way I could vote for him here. Not ahead of Barkley.
Now, on to my analysis. Grizz mentioned the not-so-pretty stats... and there are some of those scattered about Isiah's career. But I think those are overstated a bit. Isiah was THE quintessential point guard, think a less efficient Chris Paul with a nastier streak and more killer instinct. I've never seen a PG who knew how to give his team exactly what it needed more than Thomas. He could be the table-setter, but was also one of the few who could take over a game with his scoring at any time (separates him from Stockton). Whether it's scoring 16 points in 90 seconds to save his team's season vs. Bernard King and the Knicks or exploding for 25 in the 3rd quarter on a bum ankle vs. the Lakers to try to close them out (before the officials screwed the Pistons over)... Isiah could turn it on at any time.
Yes. Those Pistons teams were full of key players. But what gets overlooked is Thomas willingly deferring to some of those guys so the team was better. He understood he was still the guy when it mattered. (And so did every member of that team.) He didn't care about stats, only winning. That should be appreciated and lauded. I think there are two positions where a player's impact defies traditional statistics... defensive big man and point guard. Isiah Thomas was a PG through and through. A competitive bastard who was the leader of a team that nearly (and should have) three-peated. Arguably the 3rd best PG of all time.
