2014 Anger General Geatest of All Time: #22 selection

[wailuaFC]

Barkley played with some pretty damn good players at different points in his career and had how much playoff success? It's a much bigger deal for a big to be indifferent defensively than it is for a guard.

Like I said at this point, everyone has flaws. Wade had a very very short peak, dirk was arguably worse defensively then barkley (remember defensive rebounds are the key to defense ), cousy has is era going against him, stockton failed in the playoffs, etc. Basically I just think Barkley is the best remaining, stats can be used to support or argue my point, but theres so little separating all of these guys is basically all bias/subjectiveness at this point

All true and I do believe that to some extent the bitching about Barkley's defense does get overblown. And Dirk won his ring when he had a great defensive center behind him so you have a good point there too. But Dirk was actually a true threat from three rather than a pretend threat and when push came to shove delivered more on the biggest stage.

That really played into my vote this round, I think its easier not only to build around dirk but to insert dirk into any lineup without too much negative impact then barkley, but I think barkley would absolutely abuse dirk in game. The bitching about barkleys defense is overblown as he had very quick feet and was actually an above average pnr defender, not to mention one of the greatest rebounders of all time. Like Ive said a few times, at this point its all about biases and preferences, and since a case can be made for barkley and I like his game more then dirks, Ill take barkley (my decision ultimately came down to the two of them)

[wailuaFC]

On what planet was Dirk arguably worse than Barkley defensively?

Barkley has both a higher career high as well as average defensive win shares as well as rebounds for what its worth

Not worth much. Dirk has more total defensive win shares than Kobe despite the fact that Kobe has played more basketball, meaning he must have had a higher average defensive win share than Kobe at different points.

Dirk actually had the highest defensive rating on a title team and is underrated as a defender.

Not great, but miles ahead of Barkley.

Ill take the career advantages and season highs over the fact that once dirk won a series with the highest defensive rating on his team, and having a defensive player of the year in chandler surely helped cover some of dirks flaws, but thats neither here nor there. The defensive sats that Im privyed to via basketball reference support the idea that barkley was better then dirk defensively, do you have a synergy account? They have more complete data to compare

[kobeunderbite]

Barkley has both a higher career high as well as average defensive win shares as well as rebounds for what its worth

Not worth much. Dirk has more total defensive win shares than Kobe despite the fact that Kobe has played more basketball, meaning he must have had a higher average defensive win share than Kobe at different points.

Dirk actually had the highest defensive rating on a title team and is underrated as a defender.

Not great, but miles ahead of Barkley.

Ill take the career advantages and season highs over the fact that once dirk won a series with the highest defensive rating on his team, and having a defensive player of the year in chandler surely helped cover some of dirks flaws, but thats neither here nor there. The defensive sats that Im privyed to via basketball reference support the idea that barkley was better then dirk defensively, do you have a synergy account? They have more complete data to compare

I don't, I'd appreciate a link, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that any metric or data could convince me that Barkley was the superior defender.

I found this quote of yours telling;

"I think its easier not only to build around dirk but to insert dirk into any lineup without too much negative impact then barkley, but I think barkley would absolutely abuse dirk in game."

I think that the first couple of sentences here should hold a lot more weight than a theoretical one-on-one matchup, but with that being said, I also think that Dirk would kill Barkley in the post.

[wailuaFC]

Not worth much. Dirk has more total defensive win shares than Kobe despite the fact that Kobe has played more basketball, meaning he must have had a higher average defensive win share than Kobe at different points.

Dirk actually had the highest defensive rating on a title team and is underrated as a defender.

Not great, but miles ahead of Barkley.

Ill take the career advantages and season highs over the fact that once dirk won a series with the highest defensive rating on his team, and having a defensive player of the year in chandler surely helped cover some of dirks flaws, but thats neither here nor there. The defensive sats that Im privyed to via basketball reference support the idea that barkley was better then dirk defensively, do you have a synergy account? They have more complete data to compare

I don't, I'd appreciate a link, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that any metric or data could convince me that Barkley was the superior defender.

I found this quote of yours telling;

"I think its easier not only to build around dirk but to insert dirk into any lineup without too much negative impact then barkley, but I think barkley would absolutely abuse dirk in game."

I think that the first couple of sentences here should hold a lot more weight than a theoretical one-on-one matchup, but with that being said, I also think that Dirk would kill Barkley in the post.

What I meant by that is there are a bevy of solid defensive bigs that cant do jack on offense other then get offensive boards and tip ins (chandler, dalembert, dampier have all done just fine) could make up for dirks defensive minus while not interfering with his offense as he doesnt operate on the low block often. Barkley on the other hand loved the low block so having an immobile big would clog the lane and hurt him more, and there are way more defensive specialist bigs with no offensive game then mobile defensive bigs. Besides just general fit,I think barkley was a greater player plain and simple

Edit: Also I was asking about synergy because I dont have one either and would like to see what their stats told. Neither was a good defensive player, but barkley seems like the tallest midget here

[vcsgrizzfan]

Ill take the career advantages and season highs over the fact that once dirk won a series with the highest defensive rating on his team, and having a defensive player of the year in chandler surely helped cover some of dirks flaws, but thats neither here nor there. The defensive sats that Im privyed to via basketball reference support the idea that barkley was better then dirk defensively, do you have a synergy account? They have more complete data to compare

I don't, I'd appreciate a link, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that any metric or data could convince me that Barkley was the superior defender.

I found this quote of yours telling;

"I think its easier not only to build around dirk but to insert dirk into any lineup without too much negative impact then barkley, but I think barkley would absolutely abuse dirk in game."

I think that the first couple of sentences here should hold a lot more weight than a theoretical one-on-one matchup, but with that being said, I also think that Dirk would kill Barkley in the post.

What I meant by that is there are a bevy of solid defensive bigs that cant do jack on offense other then get offensive boards and tip ins (chandler, dalembert, dampier have all done just fine) could make up for dirks defensive minus while not interfering with his offense as he doesnt operate on the low block often. Barkley on the other hand loved the low block so having an immobile big would clog the lane and hurt him more, and there are way more defensive specialist bigs with no offensive game then mobile defensive bigs. Besides just general fit,I think barkley was a greater player plain and simple

Kinda sounds like you should have voted Dirk based on that. You almost have to have a great rim protector to have big success and win titles. And in your last post you just said it would be difficult for Barkley to coexist with that guy. Barkley sure as hell isn't a rim protector so who the hell is it going to be then?

[wailuaFC]

I don't, I'd appreciate a link, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that any metric or data could convince me that Barkley was the superior defender.

I found this quote of yours telling;

"I think its easier not only to build around dirk but to insert dirk into any lineup without too much negative impact then barkley, but I think barkley would absolutely abuse dirk in game."

I think that the first couple of sentences here should hold a lot more weight than a theoretical one-on-one matchup, but with that being said, I also think that Dirk would kill Barkley in the post.

What I meant by that is there are a bevy of solid defensive bigs that cant do jack on offense other then get offensive boards and tip ins (chandler, dalembert, dampier have all done just fine) could make up for dirks defensive minus while not interfering with his offense as he doesnt operate on the low block often. Barkley on the other hand loved the low block so having an immobile big would clog the lane and hurt him more, and there are way more defensive specialist bigs with no offensive game then mobile defensive bigs. Besides just general fit,I think barkley was a greater player plain and simple

Kinda sounds like you should have voted Dirk based on that. You almost have to have a great rim protector to have big success and win titles. And in your last post you just said it would be difficult for Barkley to coexist with that guy. Barkley sure as hell isn't a rim protector so who the hell is it going to be then?

This is not a who is easiest to build around list otherwise the top 10 would have all been defensive bigs. I think Barkley is a better player, regardless if he would be harder to build around, as an individual talent Barkley > dirk (IMO) and that's why I voted that way

[vcsgrizzfan]

What I meant by that is there are a bevy of solid defensive bigs that cant do jack on offense other then get offensive boards and tip ins (chandler, dalembert, dampier have all done just fine) could make up for dirks defensive minus while not interfering with his offense as he doesnt operate on the low block often. Barkley on the other hand loved the low block so having an immobile big would clog the lane and hurt him more, and there are way more defensive specialist bigs with no offensive game then mobile defensive bigs. Besides just general fit,I think barkley was a greater player plain and simple

Kinda sounds like you should have voted Dirk based on that. You almost have to have a great rim protector to have big success and win titles. And in your last post you just said it would be difficult for Barkley to coexist with that guy. Barkley sure as hell isn't a rim protector so who the hell is it going to be then?

This is not a who is easiest to build around list otherwise the top 10 would have all been defensive bigs. I think Barkley is a better player, regardless if he would be harder to build around, as an individual talent Barkley > dirk (IMO) and that's why I voted that way

Sorry, but that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You play to win and you just suggested Barkley has a huge drawback in building a winning team. Stephon Marbury might have been as good an individual player as Nash but so what? I know it's an absurd example and I'm only using it to illustrate a point.

[wailuaFC]

Kinda sounds like you should have voted Dirk based on that. You almost have to have a great rim protector to have big success and win titles. And in your last post you just said it would be difficult for Barkley to coexist with that guy. Barkley sure as hell isn't a rim protector so who the hell is it going to be then?

This is not a who is easiest to build around list otherwise the top 10 would have all been defensive bigs. I think Barkley is a better player, regardless if he would be harder to build around, as an individual talent Barkley > dirk (IMO) and that's why I voted that way

Sorry, but that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You play to win and you just suggested Barkley has a huge drawback in building a winning team. Stephon Marbury might have been as good an individual player as Nash but so what? I know it's an absurd example and I'm only using it to illustrate a point.

I just don't think the fact that there are more Kendrick Perkins, Eric dampiers, and Omer Asiks in the league the gasol brothers is a reason that dirk is better then barkley, that doesn't make any sense to me. Dirk also has drawbacks when building around him, I mean could you imagine a dirk and bargs, Lopez, horford front courts? You basically need to have your other big be dedicated full time to standing under the rim because you know the 7 foot dirk doesn't want to be banging in the paint.

[vcsgrizzfan]

This is not a who is easiest to build around list otherwise the top 10 would have all been defensive bigs. I think Barkley is a better player, regardless if he would be harder to build around, as an individual talent Barkley > dirk (IMO) and that's why I voted that way

Sorry, but that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You play to win and you just suggested Barkley has a huge drawback in building a winning team. Stephon Marbury might have been as good an individual player as Nash but so what? I know it's an absurd example and I'm only using it to illustrate a point.

I just don't think the fact that there are more Kendrick Perkins, Eric dampiers, and Omer Asiks in the league the gasol brothers is a reason that dirk is better then barkley, that doesn't make any sense to me. Dirk also has drawbacks when building around him, I mean could you imagine a dirk and bargs, Lopez, horford front courts? You basically need to have your other big be dedicated full time to standing under the rim because you know the 7 foot dirk doesn't want to be banging in the paint.

You basically just said there are many Cs you could use to build around Dirk. They are almost a dime a dozen.

Your example of Bargs is just retarded. Sorry.

It's a much tougher task finding one to build around Barkley. An older Hakeem obviously wasn't enough.

[Y2K]

I've only got a moment here, so I can't give as thorough an answer as I'd like--or as you'd probably like as well. But as an explanation for my pick of Isiah, I'd say this:

From 1980, the NBA had a great narrative of Magic v Bird, Lakers v Celtics, with a bone thrown to the legacy of the ABA and Dr. J in 1983. The ascendency of Jordan as a replacement to the dichotomy of Bird/Magic seemed a given, up until these upstarts from Detroit showed up. They were brash, nasty even--the Bad Boys--and their unquestioned leader was Isiah Thomas.

Thomas deserves this spot for being the best player on that team. For topping three of the top six players in this poll. No other player in the list can claim that.

^^^THIS.

Hardly. Isiah was much more a cog in the wheel than the wheel. His teams that won were teams with great depth in both the front court and the back court and while he might have been the 'leader' in a sense, he was more the first among equals than the lead dogs of his era. People are trying way too hard to make him something he wasn't.

Joe Dumars can claim that. He was the 1989 FMVP and was a solid game away in 1990 game 5 from claiming a second FMVP. Thomas didn't garner a single selection other than all-star post-1987. He retired in 1994. That's SEVEN seasons of no all-nba or all-defensive teams selections.

Does that not mean anything at all?????

[wailuaFC]

Sorry, but that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You play to win and you just suggested Barkley has a huge drawback in building a winning team. Stephon Marbury might have been as good an individual player as Nash but so what? I know it's an absurd example and I'm only using it to illustrate a point.

I just don't think the fact that there are more Kendrick Perkins, Eric dampiers, and Omer Asiks in the league the gasol brothers is a reason that dirk is better then barkley, that doesn't make any sense to me. Dirk also has drawbacks when building around him, I mean could you imagine a dirk and bargs, Lopez, horford front courts? You basically need to have your other big be dedicated full time to standing under the rim because you know the 7 foot dirk doesn't want to be banging in the paint.

You basically just said there are many Cs you could use to build around Dirk. They are almost a dime a dozen.

Your example of Bargs is just retarded. Sorry.

It's a much tougher task finding one to build around Barkley. An older Hakeem obviously wasn't enough.

My bargs inclusion was as ridiculous as the steph vs Nash comparison, I was basically just trying to show that you need a player dedicated to nothing other then rebounding to fit with dirk. Once again, if this was an all time draft, the list would look much differently. As it's currently composed the poll is to find out who the greatest players of all time were, Barkley was a greater player then dirk in my opinion. You could present and argument for dirk other then the accepted there are lots of defensive bigs one I presented and I'd be willing to listen

[wailuaFC]

Anyways, back to work for me. I'd love to see a Barkley vs dirk debate with some good talking points, I'll be sure to chime in tomorrow when were all back on. Good stuff guys

[elmouse03]

^^^THIS.

Hardly. Isiah was much more a cog in the wheel than the wheel. His teams that won were teams with great depth in both the front court and the back court and while he might have been the 'leader' in a sense, he was more the first among equals than the lead dogs of his era. People are trying way too hard to make him something he wasn't.

Joe Dumars can claim that. He was the 1989 FMVP and was a solid game away in 1990 game 5 from claiming a second FMVP. Thomas didn't garner a single selection other than all-star post-1987. He retired in 1994. That's SEVEN seasons of no all-nba or all-defensive teams selections.

Does that not mean anything at all?????

Isiah averaged 21.3 and 27.6 in the 89 and 90 finals. Dumars 27.3 and 20.6.

That is 24.5ppg for Isiah to 24ppg for Dumars.

I believe Isiah in 88 finals game 6 had 43 points. 25 in the 3rd on a bad ankle? In 91 and 94 we know Isiah was injured but the point guard position from 87-94 was pretty stacked. There has been talk that if Isiah wanted to he could have put up prime Nate Archibald type numbers in scoring and assists and probably even longer then Nate did but he knew that wasn't the key to winning but he had his moments in games/series to show that he can do that if he wanted to.

[vcsgrizzfan]

I just don't think the fact that there are more Kendrick Perkins, Eric dampiers, and Omer Asiks in the league the gasol brothers is a reason that dirk is better then barkley, that doesn't make any sense to me. Dirk also has drawbacks when building around him, I mean could you imagine a dirk and bargs, Lopez, horford front courts? You basically need to have your other big be dedicated full time to standing under the rim because you know the 7 foot dirk doesn't want to be banging in the paint.

You basically just said there are many Cs you could use to build around Dirk. They are almost a dime a dozen.

Your example of Bargs is just retarded. Sorry.

It's a much tougher task finding one to build around Barkley. An older Hakeem obviously wasn't enough.

My bargs inclusion was as ridiculous as the steph vs Nash comparison, I was basically just trying to show that you need a player dedicated to nothing other then rebounding to fit with dirk. Once again, if this was an all time draft, the list would look much differently. As it's currently composed the poll is to find out who the greatest players of all time were, Barkley was a greater player then dirk in my opinion. You could present and argument for dirk other then the accepted there are lots of defensive bigs one I presented and I'd be willing to listen

You play to win. Russell is GOAT or 2ND GOAT because he made everyone around him more effective and hid many teammates weaknesses. He made you win.

Barkley had pretty stats, but did he help you win more than Dirk? Did he stretch defenses to make it easier for others on the offensive end? Did he guard the paint to make it easier for others on the defensive end? Was he versatile enough to cover up the aforementioned flaws? Be honest.

[elmouse03]

You basically just said there are many Cs you could use to build around Dirk. They are almost a dime a dozen.

Your example of Bargs is just retarded. Sorry.

It's a much tougher task finding one to build around Barkley. An older Hakeem obviously wasn't enough.

My bargs inclusion was as ridiculous as the steph vs Nash comparison, I was basically just trying to show that you need a player dedicated to nothing other then rebounding to fit with dirk. Once again, if this was an all time draft, the list would look much differently. As it's currently composed the poll is to find out who the greatest players of all time were, Barkley was a greater player then dirk in my opinion. You could present and argument for dirk other then the accepted there are lots of defensive bigs one I presented and I'd be willing to listen

You play to win. Russell is GOAT or 2ND GOAT because he made everyone around him more effective and hid many teammates weaknesses. He made you win.

Barkley had pretty stats, but did he help you win more than Dirk? Did he stretch defenses to make it easier for others on the offensive end? Did he guard the paint to make it easier for others on the defensive end? Was he versatile enough to cover up the aforementioned flaws? Be honest.

Here's a little nugget. Barkley's suns went 62-20 in 92-93. Went down 0-2 to the 39 win Lakers and was on the brink of being the first 1 seed to lose to an 8 seed but came back and won 3 straight. Barkley was the mvp that year. In Dirk's MVP season he took the Mavs to a 67-15 record but they ended up losing in the first round to the 42 win Warriors. I think the 07 Mavs were the winningest team to lose in the first round of the playoffs?

[vcsgrizzfan]

My bargs inclusion was as ridiculous as the steph vs Nash comparison, I was basically just trying to show that you need a player dedicated to nothing other then rebounding to fit with dirk. Once again, if this was an all time draft, the list would look much differently. As it's currently composed the poll is to find out who the greatest players of all time were, Barkley was a greater player then dirk in my opinion. You could present and argument for dirk other then the accepted there are lots of defensive bigs one I presented and I'd be willing to listen

You play to win. Russell is GOAT or 2ND GOAT because he made everyone around him more effective and hid many teammates weaknesses. He made you win.

Barkley had pretty stats, but did he help you win more than Dirk? Did he stretch defenses to make it easier for others on the offensive end? Did he guard the paint to make it easier for others on the defensive end? Was he versatile enough to cover up the aforementioned flaws? Be honest.

Here's a little nugget. Barkley's suns went 62-20 in 92-93. Went down 0-2 to the 39 win Lakers and was on the brink of being the first 1 seed to lose to an 8 seed but came back and won 3 straight. Barkley was the mvp that year. In Dirk's MVP season he took the Mavs to a 67-15 record but they ended up losing in the first round to the 42 win Warriors. I think the 07 Mavs were the winningest team to lose in the first round of the playoffs?

Did you even watch the series? Every great player has had series where he played stinkers. Was that series more about Dirk having a stinker, or guys like Baron Davis and Stephen Jackson playing way above their norm? Dirk played poorly but it was more about GSW making shots and no one on Dallas making theirs. It's a bit like blaming LeBron for losing to the Magic in 2009. It's usually the stuff of morons.

[PhutureDynasty]

Having heard the arguments change my vote from Zeke to Dirk. I've been swayed.

[dwcmwa]

I'll change my vote from Pippen to Isiah.

[vcsgrizzfan]

I'll change my vote from Pippen to Isiah.

That had to hurt. Even though you are the most predictable troll ever.

[ripper76]

Maybe in the future people should have to present a case for the player they think should be in that spot, and then actual voting can begin say 24 hours after the thread is put up, with no one being able to change their votes.

Or just say people can't change their votes period.

You could also actually use the poll feature and disable revoting.