vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Baylor doesn't just not have any lead dog rings, he doesn't have any rings at all. He also gagged it in many big games. He wasn't surrounded by tomato cans most of his career. I have no problem whatsoever taking Garnett over him.
Garnett got out of the first round all of ONE time with those tomato cans. They never upset a team in 8 seasons.
Baylor not only made it out of the 1st round with Dick Garmaker as his top sidekick... they made the NBA Finals. Which I guess is a bad thing because like the 1962 finals where he went off for 41/18 per game... it just gets chalked up to "8 Finals losses."
I'd be interested to know how Baylor would be perceived if he didn't graciously bow out from the NBA despite playing for the best team on the cusp of the title despite averaging 16/9. Think about that... in today's NBA, guys chase rings at the tail end of their career. Baylor had one FINALLY in his grasp... and he bowed out because he felt like he was hurting the team. I wonder if guys back then were aware of how that would look to posters who never saw them play 40+ years later...
You're trying too hard. Really. He had West with him pretty much his entire career.
For some reason, you seem to have emotional capital invested in this. I don't get it.
No emotional investment at all. I just find the "lead dog" argument, especially when used only when convenient, to be silly. I know you're not using that angle against Baylor... but others seem to be.
Bottom line is that he lost to the vaunted Celtics with Russell, Cousy, Sam Jones and Havlicek and others multiple times. There should be no shame in that. Those Celtics were simply better than the Lakers... which is why Russell is ranked so highly and why the others should be seen soon.
Basically, Russell's Celtics > West/Baylor. Simple as that.
Jerry west averaged 31 ppg in the finals. Baylor also had Wilt for latter years of his career.
Indeed. When LAL lost those 2 game 7s in 1969 and 1970 and Baylor scored more in Game 7 than he'd averaged previously in the series both years... it was his fault.
Not the fault of his center who shot 5 - 24 from the free throw line in those two games.
Look you obviously know i'm no Wilt fan. It's why i only have him at number 8 on my list but your just making excuses for Baylor at this point. Go ahead and blame Wilt. He's choked a lot in his career as we all know, but even has a couple titles while Baylor has nothing to show for his greatness.
You have to ask yourself, Why has no team with Elgin Baylor on it, ever won a title especially since he played in the finals 8 times? Wilt won 2 without him, West finally won his when Baylor retired.
Garnett got out of the first round all of ONE time with those tomato cans. They never upset a team in 8 seasons.
Baylor not only made it out of the 1st round with Dick Garmaker as his top sidekick... they made the NBA Finals. Which I guess is a bad thing because like the 1962 finals where he went off for 41/18 per game... it just gets chalked up to "8 Finals losses."
I'd be interested to know how Baylor would be perceived if he didn't graciously bow out from the NBA despite playing for the best team on the cusp of the title despite averaging 16/9. Think about that... in today's NBA, guys chase rings at the tail end of their career. Baylor had one FINALLY in his grasp... and he bowed out because he felt like he was hurting the team. I wonder if guys back then were aware of how that would look to posters who never saw them play 40+ years later...
You're trying too hard. Really. He had West with him pretty much his entire career.
For some reason, you seem to have emotional capital invested in this. I don't get it.
No emotional investment at all. I just find the "lead dog" argument, especially when used only when convenient, to be silly. I know you're not using that angle against Baylor... but others seem to be.
Bottom line is that he lost to the vaunted Celtics with Russell, Cousy, Sam Jones and Havlicek and others multiple times. There should be no shame in that. Those Celtics were simply better than the Lakers... which is why Russell is ranked so highly and why the others should be seen soon.
Basically, Russell's Celtics > West/Baylor. Simple as that.
Where they that much better that they go 8-0 against them? No way. Those teams were pretty even if you ask me. Celtics may have had a little more depth but the Lakers had more star power and arguably more talent. The lakers had a chance to dethrone that dynasty numerous times they just couldn't do it and Baylor has to shoulder blame for that as well as West.
Garnett got out of the first round all of ONE time with those tomato cans. They never upset a team in 8 seasons.
Baylor not only made it out of the 1st round with Dick Garmaker as his top sidekick... they made the NBA Finals. Which I guess is a bad thing because like the 1962 finals where he went off for 41/18 per game... it just gets chalked up to "8 Finals losses."
I'd be interested to know how Baylor would be perceived if he didn't graciously bow out from the NBA despite playing for the best team on the cusp of the title despite averaging 16/9. Think about that... in today's NBA, guys chase rings at the tail end of their career. Baylor had one FINALLY in his grasp... and he bowed out because he felt like he was hurting the team. I wonder if guys back then were aware of how that would look to posters who never saw them play 40+ years later...
You're trying too hard. Really. He had West with him pretty much his entire career.
For some reason, you seem to have emotional capital invested in this. I don't get it.
No emotional investment at all. I just find the "lead dog" argument, especially when used only when convenient, to be silly. I know you're not using that angle against Baylor... but others seem to be.
Bottom line is that he lost to the vaunted Celtics with Russell, Cousy, Sam Jones and Havlicek and others multiple times. There should be no shame in that. Those Celtics were simply better than the Lakers... which is why Russell is ranked so highly and why the others should be seen soon.
Basically, Russell's Celtics > West/Baylor. Simple as that.
I don't agree with how you put that. Russell's Celtics were better than Baylor's Lakers because Russell was on the Celtics. Russell's Celtics won shit when it was Cousy and Sherman and without Russell they fall about ten rings short (give or take) of the 11 they won with Russell.
Baylor had good teams and sometimes shit happens, but he still never won shit and it wasn't because Gary Trent and Sam Mitchell were starting beside him.
And as grizz said, this isn't necessarily about "lead dog" titles, this about the fact that Baylor doesn't have any titles at all. No regular season mvp's, no fmvp's obviously. He has nothing to show for his greatness other than gaudy numbers(on low efficiency i might add).
876Stephen wrote:
Jerry west averaged 31 ppg in the finals. Baylor also had Wilt for latter years of his career.
Indeed. When LAL lost those 2 game 7s in 1969 and 1970 and Baylor scored more in Game 7 than he'd averaged previously in the series both years... it was his fault.
Not the fault of his center who shot 5 - 24 from the free throw line in those two games.
Look you obviously know i'm no Wilt fan. It's why i only have him at number 8 on my list but your just making excuses for Baylor at this point. Go ahead and blame Wilt. He's choked a lot in his career as we all know, but even has a couple titles while Baylor has nothing to show for his greatness.
You have to ask yourself, Why has no team with Elgin Baylor on it, ever won a title especially since he played in the finals 8 times? Wilt won 2 without him, West finally won his when Baylor retired.
Are you insinuating West won because Baylor retired? Baylor averaged 16 / 9 on that team. He didn't think it was good enough... so he quit even though a ring was there for the taking. It would have been so easy for Baylor to stay on the team and cruise to his title. But because he was a team first guy, he bowed out graciously.
16 / 9.
Garnett averaged 18 / 13 as THE guy allegedly for his only title and he's applauded for it. (Granted, Garnett's defensive impact went a lot further.) Heck, we have a poster clamoring for a guy ahead of Baylor because he averaged 12/6/5 for a team that didn't even make the finals.
Indeed. When LAL lost those 2 game 7s in 1969 and 1970 and Baylor scored more in Game 7 than he'd averaged previously in the series both years... it was his fault.
Not the fault of his center who shot 5 - 24 from the free throw line in those two games.
Look you obviously know i'm no Wilt fan. It's why i only have him at number 8 on my list but your just making excuses for Baylor at this point. Go ahead and blame Wilt. He's choked a lot in his career as we all know, but even has a couple titles while Baylor has nothing to show for his greatness.
You have to ask yourself, Why has no team with Elgin Baylor on it, ever won a title especially since he played in the finals 8 times? Wilt won 2 without him, West finally won his when Baylor retired.
Are you insinuating West won because Baylor retired? Baylor averaged 16 / 9 on that team. He didn't think it was good enough... so he quit even though a ring was there for the taking. It would have been so easy for Baylor to stay on the team and cruise to his title. But because he was a team first guy, he bowed out graciously.
16 / 9.
Garnett averaged 18 / 13 as THE guy allegedly for his only title and he's applauded for it. (Granted, Garnett's defensive impact went a lot further.) Heck, we have a poster clamoring for a guy ahead of Baylor because he averaged 12/6/5 for a team that didn't even make the finals.
Baylor just didn't have it anymore after the 69-70 season. 11.5ppg in 11 games over his last 2 years.
In 59 Baylor had no shot and I brought up the Frank Selvy shot from 62. 62 was just a stroke of bad luck for the Lakers. Guess that's why they call it the luck of the Irish for the Celtics.
Indeed. When LAL lost those 2 game 7s in 1969 and 1970 and Baylor scored more in Game 7 than he'd averaged previously in the series both years... it was his fault.
Not the fault of his center who shot 5 - 24 from the free throw line in those two games.
Look you obviously know i'm no Wilt fan. It's why i only have him at number 8 on my list but your just making excuses for Baylor at this point. Go ahead and blame Wilt. He's choked a lot in his career as we all know, but even has a couple titles while Baylor has nothing to show for his greatness.
You have to ask yourself, Why has no team with Elgin Baylor on it, ever won a title especially since he played in the finals 8 times? Wilt won 2 without him, West finally won his when Baylor retired.
Are you insinuating West won because Baylor retired? Baylor averaged 16 / 9 on that team. He didn't think it was good enough... so he quit even though a ring was there for the taking. It would have been so easy for Baylor to stay on the team and cruise to his title. But because he was a team first guy, he bowed out graciously.
16 / 9.
Garnett averaged 18 / 13 as THE guy allegedly for his only title and he's applauded for it. (Granted, Garnett's defensive impact went a lot further.) Heck, we have a poster clamoring for a guy ahead of Baylor because he averaged 12/6/5 for a team that didn't even make the finals.
It's a mighty fine coincidence that West finally wins a title after Baylor retires after playing his whole career with Baylor up to that point and not winning one. And how come you never bring up Baylor's mediocre to below average efficiency? He put up great volume stats as you keep bringing up but so did many other greats excpet most others did it on much better efficiency, like his career teammate West did.
876Stephen wrote:
Look you obviously know i'm no Wilt fan. It's why i only have him at number 8 on my list but your just making excuses for Baylor at this point. Go ahead and blame Wilt. He's choked a lot in his career as we all know, but even has a couple titles while Baylor has nothing to show for his greatness.
You have to ask yourself, Why has no team with Elgin Baylor on it, ever won a title especially since he played in the finals 8 times? Wilt won 2 without him, West finally won his when Baylor retired.
Are you insinuating West won because Baylor retired? Baylor averaged 16 / 9 on that team. He didn't think it was good enough... so he quit even though a ring was there for the taking. It would have been so easy for Baylor to stay on the team and cruise to his title. But because he was a team first guy, he bowed out graciously.
16 / 9.
Garnett averaged 18 / 13 as THE guy allegedly for his only title and he's applauded for it. (Granted, Garnett's defensive impact went a lot further.) Heck, we have a poster clamoring for a guy ahead of Baylor because he averaged 12/6/5 for a team that didn't even make the finals.
It's a mighty fine coincidence that West finally wins a title after Baylor retires after playing his whole career with Baylor up to that point and not winning one. And how come you never bring up Baylor's mediocre to below average efficiency? He put up great volume stats as you keep bringing up but so did many other greats excpet most others did it on much better efficiency, like his career teammate West did.
Just a quick quip, while 43% is poor efficiency for today's standards, it really wasn't that bad for the era he played in. I'm more so on Abe's side of this argument, I think Baylor is being underrated (although unlike him I have Garnett slightly above him). The whole lead dog rings thing is blown out of proportion on this board (as a laker/Kobe fan that sentiment is easy to understand).
876Stephen wrote:
Look you obviously know i'm no Wilt fan. It's why i only have him at number 8 on my list but your just making excuses for Baylor at this point. Go ahead and blame Wilt. He's choked a lot in his career as we all know, but even has a couple titles while Baylor has nothing to show for his greatness.
You have to ask yourself, Why has no team with Elgin Baylor on it, ever won a title especially since he played in the finals 8 times? Wilt won 2 without him, West finally won his when Baylor retired.
Are you insinuating West won because Baylor retired? Baylor averaged 16 / 9 on that team. He didn't think it was good enough... so he quit even though a ring was there for the taking. It would have been so easy for Baylor to stay on the team and cruise to his title. But because he was a team first guy, he bowed out graciously.
16 / 9.
Garnett averaged 18 / 13 as THE guy allegedly for his only title and he's applauded for it. (Granted, Garnett's defensive impact went a lot further.) Heck, we have a poster clamoring for a guy ahead of Baylor because he averaged 12/6/5 for a team that didn't even make the finals.
It's a mighty fine coincidence that West finally wins a title after Baylor retires after playing his whole career with Baylor up to that point and not winning one. And how come you never bring up Baylor's mediocre to below average efficiency? He put up great volume stats as you keep bringing up but so did many other greats excpet most others did it on much better efficiency, like his career teammate West did.
It's because the coaching staff "catered" to Elgin Baylor's Game, which limited Wilt's effectiveness. Baylor needed the open paint and Wilt needed to play in the paint. Once Baylor retired, the Lakers had a more efficient offense inside and out.
