876Stephen wrote:Also Kobe played with Phil Jackson for all his titles just like Duncan with Pop and most people think Phil is a greater coach than Pop.
Another thing to keep in mind. Duncan has been sacrificing personal glory for winning his whole career. If Duncan wanted to just focus on scoring as much as possible he could have done that easily. 30-40 points was nothing for Duncan in his prime he just didn't do it very often because he sacrificed for the good of the team. Thing is, Duncan has never had a team good enough were all he has to do is score and that's it.
Kobe has never had to and never wanted to make sacrifices. If his team wins it's because of him and him only. That is what contributed to the 04 finals collapse and Shaq leaving as well as Kobe not having that sustained success like Duncan.
Please start with the sacrifices that Shaquille made.
Then tell us of Jordan's.
04 didn't happen because injuries exposed Shaqs declining skills.
"Educated people make the world a better place, they mercilessly attack misery and cruelty, and eventually they win."
--Henry Rollins
Shill Jackson wrote:
He doesn't have a strong case.
You rate him on potential. Facts are, he always took half seasons off. He was always lazy.
Doesn't matter how lazy he was. He produced when he needed to:
13 straight years of 20 and 10
2 scoring titles
4 rings
4 total MVPS
3 defensive teams
Absolute monster peak
That speaks a lot.
Of course it matters.
Name another 'superstar' cloaked with "lazy"
It speaks volumes that Shaq who according to you, was lazy and barely gave effort, has achieved just as much if not more than Kobe who was a workout warrior and gave 100% all the time. Shaq also did this in a shorter amount of time then Kobe.
876Stephen wrote:Also Kobe played with Phil Jackson for all his titles just like Duncan with Pop and most people think Phil is a greater coach than Pop.
Another thing to keep in mind. Duncan has been sacrificing personal glory for winning his whole career. If Duncan wanted to just focus on scoring as much as possible he could have done that easily. 30-40 points was nothing for Duncan in his prime he just didn't do it very often because he sacrificed for the good of the team. Thing is, Duncan has never had a team good enough were all he has to do is score and that's it.
Kobe has never had to and never wanted to make sacrifices. If his team wins it's because of him and him only. That is what contributed to the 04 finals collapse and Shaq leaving as well as Kobe not having that sustained success like Duncan.
Please start with the sacrifices that Shaquille made.
Then tell us of Jordan's.
04 didn't happen because injuries exposed Shaqs declining skills.
What are you even saying. That whole block of text was about Duncan and Kobe.
And the 04 finals was largely Kobe's fault. The only one's who deny that are Kobe Kids like you.
876Stephen wrote:Also Kobe played with Phil Jackson for all his titles just like Duncan with Pop and most people think Phil is a greater coach than Pop.
Another thing to keep in mind. Duncan has been sacrificing personal glory for winning his whole career. If Duncan wanted to just focus on scoring as much as possible he could have done that easily. 30-40 points was nothing for Duncan in his prime he just didn't do it very often because he sacrificed for the good of the team. Thing is, Duncan has never had a team good enough were all he has to do is score and that's it.
Kobe has never had to and never wanted to make sacrifices. If his team wins it's because of him and him only. That is what contributed to the 04 finals collapse and Shaq leaving as well as Kobe not having that sustained success like Duncan.
Please start with the sacrifices that Shaquille made.
Then tell us of Jordan's.
04 didn't happen because injuries exposed Shaqs declining skills.
What are you even saying. That whole block of text was about Duncan and Kobe.
And the 04 finals was largely Kobe's fault. The only one's who deny that are Kobe Kids like you.
'04 was largely several things:
1. Kobe played like shit.
2. Payton played like shit and let his man destroy him on the other end.
3. Malone was injured.
Olaf wrote:I would fuck them up with an ice pick.
I could also fuck you up, if you want to be fucked up.
Shill Jackson wrote:
Please start with the sacrifices that Shaquille made.
Then tell us of Jordan's.
04 didn't happen because injuries exposed Shaqs declining skills.
What are you even saying. That whole block of text was about Duncan and Kobe.
And the 04 finals was largely Kobe's fault. The only one's who deny that are Kobe Kids like you.
'04 was largely several things:
1. Kobe played like shit.
2. Payton played like shit and let his man destroy him on the other end.
3. Malone was injured.
Shaq played like shit.
"Educated people make the world a better place, they mercilessly attack misery and cruelty, and eventually they win."
--Henry Rollins
Shill Jackson wrote:
Please start with the sacrifices that Shaquille made.
Then tell us of Jordan's.
04 didn't happen because injuries exposed Shaqs declining skills.
What are you even saying. That whole block of text was about Duncan and Kobe.
And the 04 finals was largely Kobe's fault. The only one's who deny that are Kobe Kids like you.
'04 was largely several things:
1. Kobe played like shit.
2. Payton played like shit and let his man destroy him on the other end.
3. Malone was injured.
I said largely Kobe's fault. Those were all contributing factors as well as Shaq being a malcontent.
876Stephen wrote:
What are you even saying. That whole block of text was about Duncan and Kobe.
And the 04 finals was largely Kobe's fault. The only one's who deny that are Kobe Kids like you.
'04 was largely several things:
1. Kobe played like shit.
2. Payton played like shit and let his man destroy him on the other end.
3. Malone was injured.
I said largely Kobe's fault. Those were all contributing factors as well as Shaq being a malcontent.
"Largely" implies the majority, which is not something I agree with. I don't give Kobe a pass for his piss poor play, but I don't ignore Payton playing like trash and allowing Billups to light him up, or the fact that Malone was injured.
Olaf wrote:I would fuck them up with an ice pick.
I could also fuck you up, if you want to be fucked up.
876Stephen wrote:Also Kobe played with Phil Jackson for all his titles just like Duncan with Pop and most people think Phil is a greater coach than Pop.
Another thing to keep in mind. Duncan has been sacrificing personal glory for winning his whole career. If Duncan wanted to just focus on scoring as much as possible he could have done that easily. 30-40 points was nothing for Duncan in his prime he just didn't do it very often because he sacrificed for the good of the team. Thing is, Duncan has never had a team good enough were all he has to do is score and that's it.
Kobe has never had to and never wanted to make sacrifices. If his team wins it's because of him and him only. That is what contributed to the 04 finals collapse and Shaq leaving as well as Kobe not having that sustained success like Duncan.
Please start with the sacrifices that Shaquille made.
Then tell us of Jordan's.
04 didn't happen because injuries exposed Shaqs declining skills.
What are you even saying. That whole block of text was about Duncan and Kobe.
And the 04 finals was largely Kobe's fault. The only one's who deny that are Kobe Kids like you.
I'll type slow so you can understand.
You made a point about sacrificing mattering in the top 10 selection.
So then I asked you to explain what sacrifices Jordan and Shaquille made.
I'll wait.
"Educated people make the world a better place, they mercilessly attack misery and cruelty, and eventually they win."
--Henry Rollins
1. Kobe played like shit.
2. Payton played like shit and let his man destroy him on the other end.
3. Malone was injured.
I said largely Kobe's fault. Those were all contributing factors as well as Shaq being a malcontent.
"Largely" implies the majority, which is not something I agree with. I don't give Kobe a pass for his piss poor play, but I don't ignore Payton playing like trash and allowing Billups to light him up, or the fact that Malone was injured.
Kobe's poor play was so much more influential on the Lakers considering that was the year he wanted to be "the man" and forced Shaq into taking a backseat. Kobe shot horribly, turned it over to much, barely passed at all and played shitty defense. It was his worst finals by far and his darkest moment in the NBA.
Shill Jackson wrote:
Please start with the sacrifices that Shaquille made.
Then tell us of Jordan's.
04 didn't happen because injuries exposed Shaqs declining skills.
What are you even saying. That whole block of text was about Duncan and Kobe.
And the 04 finals was largely Kobe's fault. The only one's who deny that are Kobe Kids like you.
I'll type slow so you can understand.
You made a point about sacrificing mattering in the top 10 selection.
So then I asked you to explain what sacrifices Jordan and Shaquille made.
I'll wait.
I said sacrificing personal glory makes a difference when it came to Duncan not everyone in the top 10. Go back and read the conversation.
Anyone claiming that 2004 was 'largely' Kobe's fault was not really paying attention. Kobe played terribly, especially given his usual standards, but even had he produced at an even higher level than usual, the Lakers were not winning that series against a white-hot and determined Pistons team. Not when a crippled Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Devean George (lol), Derek Fisher, Luke Walton (lol), Kareem Rush (lol), and Stanislav Medvedenko (lol) were logging the 3rd-9th most minutes on the team. How that team even made the finals with a supporting cast like that is a wonder.
Just to put things into perspective, Kobe shot .381 in the series (43-113). Had he shot to his career mark of 45%, it would have meant hitting 50.85-113 shots, or 7.85 more shots over the course of 5 games, or 1.57 more baskets made per game.
Kobeunderbite wrote:Anyone claiming that 2004 was 'largely' Kobe's fault was not really paying attention. Kobe played terribly, especially given his usual standards, but even had he produced at an even higher level than usual, the Lakers were not winning that series against a white-hot and determined Pistons team. Not when a crippled Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Devean George (lol), Derek Fisher, Luke Walton (lol), Kareem Rush (lol), and Stanislav Medvedenko (lol) were logging the 3rd-9th most minutes on the team. How that team even made the finals with a supporting cast like that is a wonder.
Just to put things into perspective, Kobe shot .381 in the series (43-113). Had he shot to his career mark of 45%, it would have meant hitting 50.85-113 shots, or 7.85 more shots over the course of 5 games, or 1.57 more baskets made per game.
And Detroit simply had a very strong, stingy defense.
Kobeunderbite wrote:Anyone claiming that 2004 was 'largely' Kobe's fault was not really paying attention. Kobe played terribly, especially given his usual standards, but even had he produced at an even higher level than usual, the Lakers were not winning that series against a white-hot and determined Pistons team. Not when a crippled Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Devean George (lol), Derek Fisher, Luke Walton (lol), Kareem Rush (lol), and Stanislav Medvedenko (lol) were logging the 3rd-9th most minutes on the team. How that team even made the finals with a supporting cast like that is a wonder.
Just to put things into perspective, Kobe shot .381 in the series (43-113). Had he shot to his career mark of 45%, it would have meant hitting 50.85-113 shots, or 7.85 more shots over the course of 5 games, or 1.57 more baskets made per game.
If Kobe produced at his normal levels in the regular season and postseasons before that, the Lakers would have been a lot more competitive. He got no help other than Shaq which I agree with but he also didn't help his cause.
Heck people blame Lebron for 2014 yet his numbers were fantastic in the finals.
Kobeunderbite wrote:Anyone claiming that 2004 was 'largely' Kobe's fault was not really paying attention. Kobe played terribly, especially given his usual standards, but even had he produced at an even higher level than usual, the Lakers were not winning that series against a white-hot and determined Pistons team. Not when a crippled Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Devean George (lol), Derek Fisher, Luke Walton (lol), Kareem Rush (lol), and Stanislav Medvedenko (lol) were logging the 3rd-9th most minutes on the team. How that team even made the finals with a supporting cast like that is a wonder.
Just to put things into perspective, Kobe shot .381 in the series (43-113). Had he shot to his career mark of 45%, it would have meant hitting 50.85-113 shots, or 7.85 more shots over the course of 5 games, or 1.57 more baskets made per game.
And Detroit simply had a very strong, stingy defense.
Over the course of the postseason, with the exception of a 3OT game, that Pistons team never allowed 100 points in a game (in 20 games). Other than OT games, they allowed more than 90 points 3 times in 19 games. They held opponents to 80 points or less for 10-out-of-18 non-OT games.
Kobeunderbite wrote:Anyone claiming that 2004 was 'largely' Kobe's fault was not really paying attention. Kobe played terribly, especially given his usual standards, but even had he produced at an even higher level than usual, the Lakers were not winning that series against a white-hot and determined Pistons team. Not when a crippled Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Devean George (lol), Derek Fisher, Luke Walton (lol), Kareem Rush (lol), and Stanislav Medvedenko (lol) were logging the 3rd-9th most minutes on the team. How that team even made the finals with a supporting cast like that is a wonder.
Just to put things into perspective, Kobe shot .381 in the series (43-113). Had he shot to his career mark of 45%, it would have meant hitting 50.85-113 shots, or 7.85 more shots over the course of 5 games, or 1.57 more baskets made per game.
If Kobe produced at his normal levels in the regular season and postseasons before that, the Lakers would have been a lot more competitive. He got no help other than Shaq which I agree with but he also didn't help his cause.
Heck people blame Lebron for 2014 yet his numbers were fantastic in the finals.
"A lot more compeititve" ?
No. The series wasn't remotely close. More competitive by a bit, but definitely not a lot more. The Lakers got punched in the mouth in 3 of their 4 losses, and weren't close at the end of any of them. The only reason it wasn't a sweep is because Kobe played brilliantly in Game 2.
