2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time: #4 selection

[Y2K]

The voting for this round will end at 8 pm CST.


Damn good, competitive round this time around.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

"Relative to his peers" (as you said) Hondo is clearly on their level... 19 combined selections to the 1st/2nd All NBA and Defense teams says so (and it would have been many more if All Defense teams were selected prior to the 69 season).

Plus Hondo was a much better Defender than Bird and Magic, and as we all know, Defense is "all important" when it comes to Russell so it stands to reason it should be looked on the same, with respect to other players (unless we're being hypocrites).

Also, Havlicek is way ahead of Wilt and Bird, Jabbar and Magic in the Winning department (which is your #1 criteria).

I've never seen anyone say defense is "all important", care to provide a link to that?

Wilt talked about this in the article fpliii posted the other day; I'm sure you read it.

Regardless, my point stands.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Nope. Doesn't own Any MVPs.

So stats/dominance/accolades = MVP's and nothing else, now?

Also Hondo won FMVP and he would have won at least 1 (maybe 2) more if the award were around at the time.

I mentioned his FMVP in a previous post. It's the only one that he has, while playing with teammates who won MVP. 1 FMVP doesn't put him in the top 5 when other players have 5+ total MVPs.

I get that... but wailua is using the MVP award as a be-all-end-all measurement when he previously said "stats, accolades, intangibles and peer dominance" are equal. He also said Winning is most important, and Havlicek squashes everyone on the GOAT list except for Russ.

So I'm simply pointing out the flaws in his criteria.

[vcsgrizzfan]

So stats/dominance/accolades = MVP's and nothing else, now?

Also Hondo won FMVP and he would have won at least 1 (maybe 2) more if the award were around at the time.

I mentioned his FMVP in a previous post. It's the only one that he has, while playing with teammates who won MVP. 1 FMVP doesn't put him in the top 5 when other players have 5+ total MVPs.

I get that... but wailua is using the MVP award as a be-all-end-all measurement when he previously said "stats, accolades, intangibles and peer dominance" are equal. He also said Winning is most important, and Havlicek squashes everyone on the GOAT list except for Russ.

So I'm simply pointing out the flaws in his criteria.

Not to put words in WailuaFC's mouth but I'm sure he's looking at Hondo's role in those titles. In the vast majority of those, his role would have been more akin to Pippen or below that. There is a huge gulf between lead dog titles and second guy titles and more again with support players.

That, combined with his lack of MVPs would prevent him from being in his top 15-20 or so.

[wailuaFC]

So stats/dominance/accolades = MVP's and nothing else, now?

Also Hondo won FMVP and he would have won at least 1 (maybe 2) more if the award were around at the time.

I mentioned his FMVP in a previous post. It's the only one that he has, while playing with teammates who won MVP. 1 FMVP doesn't put him in the top 5 when other players have 5+ total MVPs.

I get that... but wailua is using the MVP award as a be-all-end-all measurement when he previously said "stats, accolades, intangibles and peer dominance" are equal. He also said Winning is most important, and Havlicek squashes everyone on the GOAT list except for Russ.

So I'm simply pointing out the flaws in his criteria.

I am using MVP as the end all? Are you sure? And while I said I put a little more weight on winning then any other factor, hav doesn't come close to matching any other top 5 or top 10 player when you factor in stats, accolades, and dominance.

[wailuaFC]

"Relative to his peers" (as you said) Hondo is clearly on their level... 19 combined selections to the 1st/2nd All NBA and Defense teams says so (and it would have been many more if All Defense teams were selected prior to the 69 season).

Plus Hondo was a much better Defender than Bird and Magic, and as we all know, Defense is "all important" when it comes to Russell so it stands to reason it should be looked on the same, with respect to other players (unless we're being hypocrites).

Also, Havlicek is way ahead of Wilt and Bird, Jabbar and Magic in the Winning department (which is your #1 criteria).

I've never seen anyone say defense is "all important", care to provide a link to that?

Wilt talked about this in the article fpliii posted the other day; I'm sure you read it.

Regardless, my point stands.

I'm confused, why are you bringing up a quote that wilt said about his biggest rival that routinely beat him down when discussing my top 10 list?

[thedangerouskitchen]

I mentioned his FMVP in a previous post. It's the only one that he has, while playing with teammates who won MVP. 1 FMVP doesn't put him in the top 5 when other players have 5+ total MVPs.

I get that... but wailua is using the MVP award as a be-all-end-all measurement when he previously said "stats, accolades, intangibles and peer dominance" are equal. He also said Winning is most important, and Havlicek squashes everyone on the GOAT list except for Russ.

So I'm simply pointing out the flaws in his criteria.

I am using MVP as the end all? Are you sure? And while I said I put a little more weight on winning then any other factor, hav doesn't come close to matching any other top 5 or top 10 player when you factor in stats, accolades, and dominance.

What peer dominance, stats and accolades have you brought up besides MVP...?

Nothing.

[wailuaFC]

I get that... but wailua is using the MVP award as a be-all-end-all measurement when he previously said "stats, accolades, intangibles and peer dominance" are equal. He also said Winning is most important, and Havlicek squashes everyone on the GOAT list except for Russ.

So I'm simply pointing out the flaws in his criteria.

I am using MVP as the end all? Are you sure? And while I said I put a little more weight on winning then any other factor, hav doesn't come close to matching any other top 5 or top 10 player when you factor in stats, accolades, and dominance.

What peer dominance, stats and accolades have you brought up besides MVP...?

Nothing.





So if that's your criteria, there

I brought up Mvps? Or did I add on to someone else's inclusion of that?

[thedangerouskitchen]

I've never seen anyone say defense is "all important", care to provide a link to that?

Wilt talked about this in the article fpliii posted the other day; I'm sure you read it.

Regardless, my point stands.

I'm confused, why are you bringing up a quote that wilt said about his biggest rival that routinely beat him down when discussing my top 10 list?

Read the quote again, maybe you won't be confused... and based on those god-awful FT numbers posted earlier, it looks like Wilt beat himself a LOT more than Russell's Defense beat him.

[wailuaFC]

Wilt talked about this in the article fpliii posted the other day; I'm sure you read it.

Regardless, my point stands.

I'm confused, why are you bringing up a quote that wilt said about his biggest rival that routinely beat him down when discussing my top 10 list?

Read the quote again, maybe you won't be confused... and based on those god-awful FT numbers posted earlier, it looks like Wilt beat himself a LOT more than Russell's Defense beat him.

I'm wondering how that quote relates to our discussion as no one on this board has ever said defense is the end all

[thedangerouskitchen]

I am using MVP as the end all? Are you sure? And while I said I put a little more weight on winning then any other factor, hav doesn't come close to matching any other top 5 or top 10 player when you factor in stats, accolades, and dominance.

What peer dominance, stats and accolades have you brought up besides MVP...?

Nothing.

I brought up Mvps? Or did I add on to someone else's inclusion of that?

Resorting to semantics now?

Really?

[Y2K]

I get that... but wailua is using the MVP award as a be-all-end-all measurement when he previously said "stats, accolades, intangibles and peer dominance" are equal. He also said Winning is most important, and Havlicek squashes everyone on the GOAT list except for Russ.

So I'm simply pointing out the flaws in his criteria.

I am using MVP as the end all? Are you sure? And while I said I put a little more weight on winning then any other factor, hav doesn't come close to matching any other top 5 or top 10 player when you factor in stats, accolades, and dominance.

What peer dominance, stats and accolades have you brought up besides MVP...?

Nothing.





So if that's your criteria, there

Well, tdk, what is one big thing separates Pippen from Shaq? From Jordan? From Kobe? From Bird? From Lebron?

MVPs, verdad? Pippen was a great player, who was never the absolute best on a legit championship contending team.

[wailuaFC]

What peer dominance, stats and accolades have you brought up besides MVP...?

Nothing.

I brought up Mvps? Or did I add on to someone else's inclusion of that?

Resorting to semantics now?

Really?

Wasn't it you that attempted to call me out for misquoting or twisting words, yet you call me out for saying something I didn't say. You said I brought up Mvps, y2k did, not I . That's not arguing semantics, that's just the truth

[thedangerouskitchen]

I'm confused, why are you bringing up a quote that wilt said about his biggest rival that routinely beat him down when discussing my top 10 list?

Read the quote again, maybe you won't be confused... and based on those god-awful FT numbers posted earlier, it looks like Wilt beat himself a LOT more than Russell's Defense beat him.

I'm wondering how that quote relates to our discussion as no one on this board has ever said defense is the end all

Sorry, forgot I have to dumb-it-down. My bad.

Bottom line Russell is regarded (by some) as the GOAT because of his 11 Championships... and those Championships don't happen if not for his Defense. Hence, "all important".

Without Pippen's Defense the Bulls don't win 6 Championships... why isn't Scottie Top 10 all-time?

[thedangerouskitchen]

I brought up Mvps? Or did I add on to someone else's inclusion of that?

Resorting to semantics now?

Really?

Wasn't it you that attempted to call me out for misquoting or twisting words, yet you call me out for saying something I didn't say. You said I brought up Mvps, y2k did, not I . That's not arguing semantics, that's just the truth

That's right... last night when you admitted to mis-quoting dictator. Did you forget? So I'm playing your game, man.

Regardless, this is all secondary to the point for which you are trying to deflect: Your criteria is flawed and cherry-picked.

[wailuaFC]

Read the quote again, maybe you won't be confused... and based on those god-awful FT numbers posted earlier, it looks like Wilt beat himself a LOT more than Russell's Defense beat him.

I'm wondering how that quote relates to our discussion as no one on this board has ever said defense is the end all

Sorry, forgot I have to dumb-it-down. My bad.

Bottom line Russell is regarded (by some) as the GOAT because of his 11 Championships... and those Championships don't happen if not for his Defense. Hence, "all important".

Without Pippen's Defense the Bulls don't win 6 Championships... why isn't Scottie Top 10 all-time?

How many Mvps does Scottie have? Were there more dominant players around during his prime? What did Scottie's stats look like compared to his peers?

[wailuaFC]

Resorting to semantics now?

Really?

Wasn't it you that attempted to call me out for misquoting or twisting words, yet you call me out for saying something I didn't say. You said I brought up Mvps, y2k did, not I . That's not arguing semantics, that's just the truth

That's right... last night when you admitted to mis-quoting dictator. Did you forget? So I'm playing your game, man.

Regardless, this is all secondary to the point for which you are trying to deflect: Your criteria is flawed and cherry-picked.

So you admit to being a hypocrite?

[thedangerouskitchen]

I'm wondering how that quote relates to our discussion as no one on this board has ever said defense is the end all

Sorry, forgot I have to dumb-it-down. My bad.

Bottom line Russell is regarded (by some) as the GOAT because of his 11 Championships... and those Championships don't happen if not for his Defense. Hence, "all important".

Without Pippen's Defense the Bulls don't win 6 Championships... why isn't Scottie Top 10 all-time?

How many Mvps does Scottie have? Were there more dominant players around during his prime? What did Scottie's stats look like compared to his peers?

Scottie was widely regarded as the best SF in the game for a decade... and for a stretch of about 5 years he was arguably a Top 3 player in the game. Pip was a perennial All NBA/Defender, arguably one of the 10 greatest all-around players in NBA history, and arguably the greatest perimeter Defender in NBA history (and in the discussion for GOAT Defender, period.)

That, coupled with 6 Championships, and Scottie should easily be Top 10 using your criteria.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Wasn't it you that attempted to call me out for misquoting or twisting words, yet you call me out for saying something I didn't say. You said I brought up Mvps, y2k did, not I . That's not arguing semantics, that's just the truth

That's right... last night when you admitted to mis-quoting dictator. Did you forget? So I'm playing your game, man.

Regardless, this is all secondary to the point for which you are trying to deflect: Your criteria is flawed and cherry-picked.

So you admit to being a hypocrite?

So you admit to deliberately mis-quoting posters?

[wailuaFC]

Sorry, forgot I have to dumb-it-down. My bad.

Bottom line Russell is regarded (by some) as the GOAT because of his 11 Championships... and those Championships don't happen if not for his Defense. Hence, "all important".

Without Pippen's Defense the Bulls don't win 6 Championships... why isn't Scottie Top 10 all-time?

How many Mvps does Scottie have? Were there more dominant players around during his prime? What did Scottie's stats look like compared to his peers?

Scottie was widely regarded as the best SF in the game for a decade... and for a stretch of about 5 years he was arguably a Top 3 player in the game. Pip was a perennial All NBA/Defender, arguably one of the 10 greatest all-around players in NBA history, and arguably the greatest perimeter Defender in NBA history (and in the discussion for GOAT Defender, period.)

That, coupled with 6 Championships, and Scottie should easily be Top 10 using your criteria.

What years was he a top 3 player in the league? How many Mvps or fmvps does he have? How many first team nba does he have? How do his stats compare to those of his peers? Basically, you have another Hondo situation, yes he has rings and was a very good player, but his stats, accolades and dominance leave way too much to be desired to be in the top 10 all time.