2014 Anger General Greatest of All Time: #4 selection

[wailuaFC]

Not if you Value the Playoffs/Finals over the regular season he doesn't...

I don't ignore the regular season, nor the 170 records that he holds.

Neither do I... I just place a lot more value on the Playoffs/Finals when we're debating the Top 5 players of all-time.

Surely you have russell number 1 then because he was the most successful player ever in the finals/playoffs

[thedangerouskitchen]

So if he were a 70% ft shooter, would the opponents foul him intentionally? Would he get as many opportunities? Would they defend him differently? Would his offensive game change? What would change about how opponents defended his teammates?

Why do u not take all of this into account?

Because this is an unknown... it didn't happen because Wilt wasn't a 70% FT shooter. On the contrary he was a historically bad (all-time worse, arguably) FT shooter whose flaw was one of THE main reasons why his teams didn't win at least another 2-4 Championships.

That's my point. You proclaiming that he'd win more rings if he made more FTs in the playoffs is an unknown. What ifs aren't facts. They are recreated scenarios.

Actually I said he "probably/likely" wins more Championships if he hits more FT's... do you disagree, after looking at the numbers that were posted?

[Y2K]

Not if you Value the Playoffs/Finals over the regular season he doesn't...

I don't ignore the regular season, nor the 170 records that he holds.

Neither do I... I just place a lot more value on the Playoffs/Finals when we're debating the Top 5 players of all-time.

And I have no problem with this at all. Not even remotely. FT shooting was an extreme flaw of his. But there's too much to take into account on how things would be if he was a better ft shooter.

Magic over Wilt is not unreasonable, btw.

[thedangerouskitchen]

I don't ignore the regular season, nor the 170 records that he holds.

Neither do I... I just place a lot more value on the Playoffs/Finals when we're debating the Top 5 players of all-time.

Surely you have russell number 1 then because he was the most successful player ever in the finals/playoffs

I said I place MORE value on the Playoffs / Finals, not that this is the be-all-end-all criteria... which is why I have Russell as high as #3 all-time (instead of much lower down the list).

Can you read...??

Seriously...??

You seem to have a major problem mis-quoting posters / taking what they say out of context. You did the same thing to dictator yesterday, and I called you out for it.

You want to play civil then stop that shit man.

[thedangerouskitchen]

I don't ignore the regular season, nor the 170 records that he holds.

Neither do I... I just place a lot more value on the Playoffs/Finals when we're debating the Top 5 players of all-time.

And I have no problem with this at all. Not even remotely. FT shooting was an extreme flaw of his. But there's too much to take into account on how things would be if he was a better ft shooter.

Magic over Wilt is not unreasonable, btw.

Fair enough...

[wailuaFC]

Neither do I... I just place a lot more value on the Playoffs/Finals when we're debating the Top 5 players of all-time.

Surely you have russell number 1 then because he was the most successful player ever in the finals/playoffs

I said I place MORE value on the Playoffs / Finals, not that this is the be-all-end-all criteria... which is why I have Russell as high as #3 all-time (instead of much lower down the list).

Can you read...??

Seriously...??

You seem to have a major problem mis-quoting posters / taking what they say out of context. You did the same thing to dictator yesterday, and I called you out for it.

You want to play civil then stop that shit man.

Where did I misquote you or take what you said out of context? You said you place a lot more value on playoffs and finals, and being as russell as nearly twice as much playoff/finals success then anyone in the top 10, it would stand to reason that someone who values playoff/final success a lot would have him ranked first. Seems pretty logical to me

[thedangerouskitchen]

Surely you have russell number 1 then because he was the most successful player ever in the finals/playoffs

I said I place MORE value on the Playoffs / Finals, not that this is the be-all-end-all criteria... which is why I have Russell as high as #3 all-time (instead of much lower down the list).

Can you read...??

Seriously...??

You seem to have a major problem mis-quoting posters / taking what they say out of context. You did the same thing to dictator yesterday, and I called you out for it.

You want to play civil then stop that shit man.

Where did I misquote you or take what you said out of context? You said you place a lot more value on playoffs and finals, and being as russell as nearly twice as much playoff/finals success then anyone in the top 10, it would stand to reason that someone who values playoff/final success a lot would have him ranked first. Seems pretty logical to me

You "assumed" I should have Russell as the GOAT because of his 11 rings, when I don't look at just the "number" of Championships... if that were the case Hondo would be Top 3-5 all-time.

I consider numerous criteria when evaluating players ('including' Playoffs/Finals success/production, both "individually" and team-wise), and my criteria is not perfect nor is it the be-all-end-all... and I never claimed it to be.

What's your critieria...? You seem to disagree with me, so let's hear your side.

[wailuaFC]

I said I place MORE value on the Playoffs / Finals, not that this is the be-all-end-all criteria... which is why I have Russell as high as #3 all-time (instead of much lower down the list).

Can you read...??

Seriously...??

You seem to have a major problem mis-quoting posters / taking what they say out of context. You did the same thing to dictator yesterday, and I called you out for it.

You want to play civil then stop that shit man.

Where did I misquote you or take what you said out of context? You said you place a lot more value on playoffs and finals, and being as russell as nearly twice as much playoff/finals success then anyone in the top 10, it would stand to reason that someone who values playoff/final success a lot would have him ranked first. Seems pretty logical to me

You "assumed" I should have Russell as the GOAT because of his 11 rings, when I don't look at just the "number" of Championships... if that were the case Hondo would be Top 3-5 all-time.

I consider numerous criteria when evaluating players ('including' Playoffs/Finals success/production, both "individually" and team-wise), and my criteria is not perfect nor is it the be-all-end-all... and I never claimed it to be.

What's your critieria...? You seem to disagree with me, so let's hear your side.

I didn't assume anything, I looked at what you said and asked a question based on your own criteria, I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive. There's no reason to bring Hondo into this, I know rings aren't the end all in anyone's criteria book that'd be foolish. However, it is the general consensus that Russell is top 5, and seeing as you said you value playoff/finals success much more the n regular season, it would stand to reason that the guy with twice as much playoff/final success then anyone else in the top 5 should be at the top of your list, correct? Basically, if playoff/finals success is enough of a factor to drop wilt past magic and bird, using that same reasoning it'd make sense that Russell would be number 1, in my opinion

[thedangerouskitchen]

Where did I misquote you or take what you said out of context? You said you place a lot more value on playoffs and finals, and being as russell as nearly twice as much playoff/finals success then anyone in the top 10, it would stand to reason that someone who values playoff/final success a lot would have him ranked first. Seems pretty logical to me

You "assumed" I should have Russell as the GOAT because of his 11 rings, when I don't look at just the "number" of Championships... if that were the case Hondo would be Top 3-5 all-time.

I consider numerous criteria when evaluating players ('including' Playoffs/Finals success/production, both "individually" and team-wise), and my criteria is not perfect nor is it the be-all-end-all... and I never claimed it to be.

What's your critieria...? You seem to disagree with me, so let's hear your side.

I didn't assume anything, I looked at what you said and asked a question based on your own criteria,

You asked a question based one one -1- criteria that I use... and I answered your question.

Now... I asked you a question: What's your critieria for ranking players AND where do you rank Russell all-time?

[wailuaFC]

You "assumed" I should have Russell as the GOAT because of his 11 rings, when I don't look at just the "number" of Championships... if that were the case Hondo would be Top 3-5 all-time.

I consider numerous criteria when evaluating players ('including' Playoffs/Finals success/production, both "individually" and team-wise), and my criteria is not perfect nor is it the be-all-end-all... and I never claimed it to be.

What's your critieria...? You seem to disagree with me, so let's hear your side.

I didn't assume anything, I looked at what you said and asked a question based on your own criteria,

You asked a question based one one -1- criteria that I use... and I answered your question.

Now... I asked you a question: What's your critieria for ranking players AND where do you rank Russell all-time?

I have Russell #1 personally, and that's based on looking at everything pretty evenly with winning being the most important factor but not by much. I weight dominance relative to peers accolades stats and other miscellaneous things just slightly below winning

[thedangerouskitchen]

I didn't assume anything, I looked at what you said and asked a question based on your own criteria,

You asked a question based one one -1- criteria that I use... and I answered your question.

Now... I asked you a question: What's your critieria for ranking players AND where do you rank Russell all-time?

I have Russell #1 personally, and that's based on looking at everything pretty evenly with winning being the most important factor but not by much. I weight dominance relative to peers accolades stats and other miscellaneous things just slightly below winning

Ah... so Havlicek is in your Top 5 all-time then, eh (considering he owns 8 rings AND was a perennial 1st/2nd Team All NBA / Defensive player throughout his career, a prolific Scorer, one of the best all-around players, and a clutch guy)?

Good to know.

[wailuaFC]

You asked a question based one one -1- criteria that I use... and I answered your question.

Now... I asked you a question: What's your critieria for ranking players AND where do you rank Russell all-time?

I have Russell #1 personally, and that's based on looking at everything pretty evenly with winning being the most important factor but not by much. I weight dominance relative to peers accolades stats and other miscellaneous things just slightly below winning

Ah... so Havlicek is in your Top 5 all-time then, eh (considering he owns 8 rings AND was a perennial 1st/2nd Team All NBA / Defensive player throughout his career, a prolific Scorer, one of the best all-around players, and a clutch guy)?

Good to know.

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

[Y2K]

I have Russell #1 personally, and that's based on looking at everything pretty evenly with winning being the most important factor but not by much. I weight dominance relative to peers accolades stats and other miscellaneous things just slightly below winning

Ah... so Havlicek is in your Top 5 all-time then, eh (considering he owns 8 rings AND was a perennial 1st/2nd Team All NBA / Defensive player throughout his career, a prolific Scorer, one of the best all-around players, and a clutch guy)?

Good to know.

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

Nope. Doesn't own Any MVPs.

[wailuaFC]

Ah... so Havlicek is in your Top 5 all-time then, eh (considering he owns 8 rings AND was a perennial 1st/2nd Team All NBA / Defensive player throughout his career, a prolific Scorer, one of the best all-around players, and a clutch guy)?

Good to know.

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

Nope. Doesn't own Any MVPs.

Not to mention a teammate of his for all of his rings never finished lower then 4th in MVP voting (by peers) excluding his rookie season I do believe.

[Y2K]

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

Nope. Doesn't own Any MVPs.

Not to mention a teammate of his for all of his rings never finished lower then 4th in MVP voting (by peers) excluding his rookie season I do believe.

Correction, he won FMVP in '74. While I was speaking of regular season MVPs, I unintentionally forgot to specify that.

[thedangerouskitchen]

I have Russell #1 personally, and that's based on looking at everything pretty evenly with winning being the most important factor but not by much. I weight dominance relative to peers accolades stats and other miscellaneous things just slightly below winning

Ah... so Havlicek is in your Top 5 all-time then, eh (considering he owns 8 rings AND was a perennial 1st/2nd Team All NBA / Defensive player throughout his career, a prolific Scorer, one of the best all-around players, and a clutch guy)?

Good to know.

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

"Relative to his peers" (as you said) Hondo is clearly on their level... 19 combined selections to the 1st/2nd All NBA and Defense teams says so (and it would have been many more if All Defense teams were selected prior to the 69 season).

Plus Hondo was a much better Defender than Bird and Magic, and as we all know, Defense is "all important" when it comes to Russell so it stands to reason it should be looked on the same, with respect to other players (unless we're being hypocrites).

Also, Havlicek is way ahead of Wilt and Bird, Jabbar and Magic in the Winning department (which is your #1 criteria).

[thedangerouskitchen]

Ah... so Havlicek is in your Top 5 all-time then, eh (considering he owns 8 rings AND was a perennial 1st/2nd Team All NBA / Defensive player throughout his career, a prolific Scorer, one of the best all-around players, and a clutch guy)?

Good to know.

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

Nope. Doesn't own Any MVPs.

So stats/dominance/accolades = MVP's and nothing else, now?

Also Hondo won FMVP and he would have won at least 1 (maybe 2) more if the award were around at the time.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Anyway... my point is that no criteria is perfect. All are flawed in one way or another, and all can be dissected and analyzed to expose hypocrisy when it comes to why this guy was ranked ahead / behind another guy.

[wailuaFC]

Ah... so Havlicek is in your Top 5 all-time then, eh (considering he owns 8 rings AND was a perennial 1st/2nd Team All NBA / Defensive player throughout his career, a prolific Scorer, one of the best all-around players, and a clutch guy)?

Good to know.

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

"Relative to his peers" (as you said) Hondo is clearly on their level... 19 combined selections to the 1st/2nd All NBA and Defense teams says so (and it would have been many more if All Defense teams were selected prior to the 69 season).

Plus Hondo was a much better Defender than Bird and Magic, and as we all know, Defense is "all important" when it comes to Russell so it stands to reason it should be looked on the same, with respect to other players (unless we're being hypocrites).

Also, Havlicek is way ahead of Wilt and Bird, Jabbar and Magic in the Winning department (which is your #1 criteria).

I've never seen anyone say defense is "all important", care to provide a link to that?

[Y2K]

Do you think havs stats, dominance, and accolades compare favorably to those of magics, birds, Kareem's, wilts, and Russell's?

Nope. Doesn't own Any MVPs.

So stats/dominance/accolades = MVP's and nothing else, now?

Also Hondo won FMVP and he would have won at least 1 (maybe 2) more if the award were around at the time.

I mentioned his FMVP in a previous post. It's the only one that he has, while playing with teammates who won MVP. 1 FMVP doesn't put him in the top 5 when other players have 5+ total MVPs.