Town Bidness

[l3bron]

I think vcsgrizz was just trying to state that it took defenses some time to react to the rule changes. That's how it usually goes in major sports...

1) defense gets too strong, fans don't like lower scoring games
2) rule change introduced that gives the offense the advantage
3) defenses in time get smarter, react to the scoring environment, meaning balance is briefly restored
4) go back to (1)

Occasionally you'll see changes that benefit defenses (which usually improve the sport, IMO), but they're usually as stated above.

Except there wasn't anything to "balance."

I do agree that defenses had to adjust the way they play defense but there wasn't some nirvana of offense after the rule changes.

If Amar'e doesn't get suspended in 07, I think we'd look at this differently.

Do we? The Heat are essentially running D'antoni's system.

[vcsgrizzfan]

If you're going to make the case, I think you need to make it based on "goodness" (quality as a player/skillset/abilities/impact) as opposed to "greatness" (accolades/achievements). The key points you'll have to hit are:

• defenses today are better, and were in particular after zone defense was allowed and before handchecking was banned
• defensive schemes are better than ever now, in no small part thanks to the analytics revolution
• 80s MJ played a style of basketball that wouldn't be conducive do winning in today's defensive era (or the early 90s); particularly, teams would take the drive away in any meaningful game/series (in general, scouting is better than ever) and there are fewer transition opportunities than ever (lower pace)
• defense by non-bigs is not very meaningful on a team level, as their impact is limited
• Kobe has superior range, and this in an era where the three is a legitimate weapon and is defended properly
• Kobe did play with bigs, but they weren't good closers (Shaq needed Kobe against Portland and SA in particular); he faces more defensive attention than MJ because he is the only perimeter creator on his teams (MJ had scottie)
• the positional competition in Kobe's era is superior, and he faced better wing defenders throughout his career
• Kobe has superior longevity (in terms of wear-and-tear in the NBA, not based on age)
• over-expansion leading to dilution of talent, while in Kobe's era top-flight international players have finally been integrated into the league

I think that's everything. Again, I don't personally think Kobe is better than Jordan, but one could go through the above and make a case for him.

I don't often disagree iwth fpliii, but I do here.

Rule changes that were enforced in spades beginning in the 2006 season made it easier than ever for perimeter players to score relative to post players. Defensive 3s and no hand check rules along with pretty tough enforcement of flagrants opened the lane for quality slashers. In 2006, when the no hand check really got enforced for the first time in a meaningful way, all of the top 10 scorers were wing players (although I am taking the liberty of calling Dirk a wing player in this instance). All but one of them had no career highs in points per game, all but two had career high in field goal % and all but one had career highs in FTAs. All had career high in FTAs/FGAs. 8 wing players went to the line ten or more times that season. To put that in perspective, MJ during his first 3 peat when he was at the height of his slashing ability never came close to sniffing 10 FTAs per game. It gets even more glaring when you look at FTAs per FGA.

A few years later, Wade scored 30 a game and went to the line just under 10 times a game. His attempts for FGA were higher than any single year in MJs career. I consider Wade "MJ Lite". A somewhat inferior version in pretty much every respect. A great slasher, but lacking MJs body control, less hang time, less ability to finish with either hand, less ability to use spin and the backboard to finish, less explosiveness etc.. I truly believe prime MJ playing under those rules would have averaged several more points and had a better field goal percentage. The latter two in part come from more "and 1s" and field goal misses that are negated by shooting foul calls.

Sadly, a lot of the foul calls that have been awarded to wings have come at the expense of post players. The reffing of the post versus the wing became ridiculous. While once upon a time, fouls in the post and the perimeter were not hugely different, muggings go on routinely in the post now with no calls. A guy like Adrian Dantley who was a prolific post scorer out of the SF slot thoughout his career, would be damn near irrelevant in today's NBA.

I do agree that in the last 3-4 years, that advantage has disappeared. Refs are not calling it as tight, defenses have adjusted and wings, while still seeing it an easier pathway to the rim in the regular season in games with less intensity, generally have lost the advantage they had from 2006 till 2010 or so.

In any case, I just disagree with most of the premises in the case you are trying to make. Seen both guys throughout their careers, and only homer glasses can make you believe Kobe is better than MJ.

The offensive "explosion" after the rule changes is drastically overstated IMO.

I'm willing to go more into detail later since I'm busy at the moment.

I wasn't suggesting there was an offensive "explosion". I was suggesting rule changes were instituted that benefitted wings (-particularly quick wings who could get to the rack) at the expense of post players. More a "shift" of the offense from post to wing than an overall panacea of offense.

[l3bron]

I don't often disagree iwth fpliii, but I do here.

Rule changes that were enforced in spades beginning in the 2006 season made it easier than ever for perimeter players to score relative to post players. Defensive 3s and no hand check rules along with pretty tough enforcement of flagrants opened the lane for quality slashers. In 2006, when the no hand check really got enforced for the first time in a meaningful way, all of the top 10 scorers were wing players (although I am taking the liberty of calling Dirk a wing player in this instance). All but one of them had no career highs in points per game, all but two had career high in field goal % and all but one had career highs in FTAs. All had career high in FTAs/FGAs. 8 wing players went to the line ten or more times that season. To put that in perspective, MJ during his first 3 peat when he was at the height of his slashing ability never came close to sniffing 10 FTAs per game. It gets even more glaring when you look at FTAs per FGA.

A few years later, Wade scored 30 a game and went to the line just under 10 times a game. His attempts for FGA were higher than any single year in MJs career. I consider Wade "MJ Lite". A somewhat inferior version in pretty much every respect. A great slasher, but lacking MJs body control, less hang time, less ability to finish with either hand, less ability to use spin and the backboard to finish, less explosiveness etc.. I truly believe prime MJ playing under those rules would have averaged several more points and had a better field goal percentage. The latter two in part come from more "and 1s" and field goal misses that are negated by shooting foul calls.

Sadly, a lot of the foul calls that have been awarded to wings have come at the expense of post players. The reffing of the post versus the wing became ridiculous. While once upon a time, fouls in the post and the perimeter were not hugely different, muggings go on routinely in the post now with no calls. A guy like Adrian Dantley who was a prolific post scorer out of the SF slot thoughout his career, would be damn near irrelevant in today's NBA.

I do agree that in the last 3-4 years, that advantage has disappeared. Refs are not calling it as tight, defenses have adjusted and wings, while still seeing it an easier pathway to the rim in the regular season in games with less intensity, generally have lost the advantage they had from 2006 till 2010 or so.

In any case, I just disagree with most of the premises in the case you are trying to make. Seen both guys throughout their careers, and only homer glasses can make you believe Kobe is better than MJ.

The offensive "explosion" after the rule changes is drastically overstated IMO.

I'm willing to go more into detail later since I'm busy at the moment.

I wasn't suggesting there was an offensive "explosion". I was suggesting rule changes were instituted that benefitted wings (-particularly quick wings who could get to the rack) at the expense of post players. More a "shift" of the offense from post to wing than an overall panacea of offense.

And here I was all ready to type up walls-of-text.

But fair enough, I'd agree with your point.

[Smelters]

Kobe has shot 34% from 3 for his career, MJ 33% so that dispels that garbage. Kobe really has no clutch moments, his signature "clutch" moment was an alley oop to Shaq. Kobe won 3 tiltles with someone else as the finals MVP.

Dwayne Wade when he was healthy tore up the NBA and he didn't have a 3 point shot (and I already dispelled the b$ about Kobe being a way better long range shooter than MJ 34% to 33%). MJ had almost the same style as Wade but with more, MJ was bigger, taller, stronger, jumped higher, was just as agile as Wade, played better defense than Kobe and Wade, played in a much more physical era than both of them and still had the fundamentals and footwork (probably better also) of a Kobe.

It's makes me laugh when people talk about the defenses nowadays that allow players to get to the rim with no resistance. PGs and wing players that run the pick and roll come in the NBA and have almost instant success getting to the rim and becoming stars nowadays.

that is a terribly superficial way of looking at it. how many 3pt shots did jordan make/take and who do you think was guarded at the 3pt line? jordan or kobe?

teams would live with jordan taking that shot... the polar opposite is true for kobe.

no jordan did not play better defense than kobe and probably not much better than wade either. he played solid defense against a mostly miserably bad sg field the majority of his career until kobe, ai, t-mac, wade, etc started to come of age. not to mention.. it was pippen that guarded the premier perimeter players enabling jordan to do what he did best for his time... shoot the ball.

nothing should make you laugh because i cant even bother to comment to the rest of your post. it is terrible and you seem to not understand what you are watching.

MJ guarded players like Isiah, Dumars, Harper, Price, Drexler, even Iverson, etc. I know what I have watched and Kobe benefitted from teams loading up on Shaq, so Kobe many times ahd clear paths to the rim.
MJ was definitely a better defender than MJ. Kobe always had better bigs behind him so that he could look better at defense than he did.

Bottom line most GMs wouldn't even blink when taking MJ over Kobe.

[FPL]

Except there wasn't anything to "balance."

I do agree that defenses had to adjust the way they play defense but there wasn't some nirvana of offense after the rule changes.

If Amar'e doesn't get suspended in 07, I think we'd look at this differently.

Do we? The Heat are essentially running D'antoni's system.

They're playing smallball, but not D'Antoni's system. Miami focusses on getting a good shot off, the SSOL Suns wanted to just get off any shot. Miami posts up a lot more with LeBron (and to a lesser extent Wade), and they play offense through their defense. The Suns didn't play much D at all (though Raja and Matrix were solid on that end), and just wanted to outshoot their opponents and force them to make bad decisions, as opposed to this pressing/trapping D the Heat play.

[Sudanese Sensation]

Re: verticality rule.

It seems it only benefits one player...Agenda much... I used to see Shaq put his hands straight up, outside the restricted circle, and get called for the foul.

[l3bron]

If Amar'e doesn't get suspended in 07, I think we'd look at this differently.

Do we? The Heat are essentially running D'antoni's system.

They're playing smallball, but not D'Antoni's system. Miami focusses on getting a good shot off, the SSOL Suns wanted to just get off any shot. Miami posts up a lot more with LeBron (and to a lesser extent Wade), and they play offense through their defense. The Suns didn't play much D at all (though Raja and Matrix were solid on that end), and just wanted to outshoot their opponents and force them to make bad decisions, as opposed to this pressing/trapping D the Heat play.

D'antoni's Suns emphasized floor spacing (1st in the league 2004-2007 in 3P%), pick-and-roll play, sharing the ball (1st in assists 2006-2008 and 3rd overall in 2005) and not just getting any shot off but efficient shots off (always the most efficient team in the league during their runs.) The Suns were a middle of the pack defensive team which is impressive when you realize Amare was the "anchor" of that defense.

The Heat just have better players.

[FPL]

Do we? The Heat are essentially running D'antoni's system.

They're playing smallball, but not D'Antoni's system. Miami focusses on getting a good shot off, the SSOL Suns wanted to just get off any shot. Miami posts up a lot more with LeBron (and to a lesser extent Wade), and they play offense through their defense. The Suns didn't play much D at all (though Raja and Matrix were solid on that end), and just wanted to outshoot their opponents and force them to make bad decisions, as opposed to this pressing/trapping D the Heat play.

D'antoni's Suns emphasized floor spacing (1st in the league 2004-2007 in 3P%), pick-and-roll play, sharing the ball (1st in assists 2006-2008 and 3rd overall in 2005) and not just getting any shot off but efficient shots off (always the most efficient team in the league during their runs.) The Suns were a middle of the pack defensive team which is impressive when you realize Amare was the "anchor" of that defense.

The Heat just have better players.

I think a lot of that had to do with Nash, and not the system, though. He created the efficient shots, when he was out that offense fell apart:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2005/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2006/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2007/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I like to credit the success of that offense (including shot selection) to the PG more than the coach (Nash did the same shit in Dallas with Dirk). Marion was more important than Amar'e and was in the paint more often, but they didn't play much defense.

[Y2K]

Re: verticality rule.

It seems it only benefits one player...Agenda much... I used to see Shaq put his hands straight up, outside the restricted circle, and get called for the foul.

They didn't enforce the verticality rule until recently. It's been a rule.

[Y2K]

Do we? The Heat are essentially running D'antoni's system.

They're playing smallball, but not D'Antoni's system. Miami focusses on getting a good shot off, the SSOL Suns wanted to just get off any shot. Miami posts up a lot more with LeBron (and to a lesser extent Wade), and they play offense through their defense. The Suns didn't play much D at all (though Raja and Matrix were solid on that end), and just wanted to outshoot their opponents and force them to make bad decisions, as opposed to this pressing/trapping D the Heat play.

D'antoni's Suns emphasized floor spacing (1st in the league 2004-2007 in 3P%), pick-and-roll play, sharing the ball (1st in assists 2006-2008 and 3rd overall in 2005) and not just getting any shot off but efficient shots off (always the most efficient team in the league during their runs.) The Suns were a middle of the pack defensive team which is impressive when you realize Amare was the "anchor" of that defense.

The Heat just have better players.

The big man isn't necessarily the anchor. Most great defenses don't have an anchor. They have a great team defense. Usually great defenses have multiple great defenders.

[Sudanese Sensation]

They're playing smallball, but not D'Antoni's system. Miami focusses on getting a good shot off, the SSOL Suns wanted to just get off any shot. Miami posts up a lot more with LeBron (and to a lesser extent Wade), and they play offense through their defense. The Suns didn't play much D at all (though Raja and Matrix were solid on that end), and just wanted to outshoot their opponents and force them to make bad decisions, as opposed to this pressing/trapping D the Heat play.

D'antoni's Suns emphasized floor spacing (1st in the league 2004-2007 in 3P%), pick-and-roll play, sharing the ball (1st in assists 2006-2008 and 3rd overall in 2005) and not just getting any shot off but efficient shots off (always the most efficient team in the league during their runs.) The Suns were a middle of the pack defensive team which is impressive when you realize Amare was the "anchor" of that defense.

The Heat just have better players.

The big man isn't necessarily the anchor. Most great defenses don't have an anchor. They have a great team defense. Usually great defenses have multiple great defenders.

A good post defender can camouflage a lot of flaws.

[FPL]

They're playing smallball, but not D'Antoni's system. Miami focusses on getting a good shot off, the SSOL Suns wanted to just get off any shot. Miami posts up a lot more with LeBron (and to a lesser extent Wade), and they play offense through their defense. The Suns didn't play much D at all (though Raja and Matrix were solid on that end), and just wanted to outshoot their opponents and force them to make bad decisions, as opposed to this pressing/trapping D the Heat play.

D'antoni's Suns emphasized floor spacing (1st in the league 2004-2007 in 3P%), pick-and-roll play, sharing the ball (1st in assists 2006-2008 and 3rd overall in 2005) and not just getting any shot off but efficient shots off (always the most efficient team in the league during their runs.) The Suns were a middle of the pack defensive team which is impressive when you realize Amare was the "anchor" of that defense.

The Heat just have better players.

The big man isn't necessarily the anchor. Most great defenses don't have an anchor. They have a great team defense. Usually great defenses have multiple great defenders.

Hm, other than the 70s Knicks, 90s Bulls, and current Heat, which great defenses didn't have a big in the paint? Though I guess Seattle got better after the McKey-Schrempf trade too.

[Y2K]

D'antoni's Suns emphasized floor spacing (1st in the league 2004-2007 in 3P%), pick-and-roll play, sharing the ball (1st in assists 2006-2008 and 3rd overall in 2005) and not just getting any shot off but efficient shots off (always the most efficient team in the league during their runs.) The Suns were a middle of the pack defensive team which is impressive when you realize Amare was the "anchor" of that defense.

The Heat just have better players.

The big man isn't necessarily the anchor. Most great defenses don't have an anchor. They have a great team defense. Usually great defenses have multiple great defenders.

Hm, other than the 70s Knicks, 90s Bulls, and current Heat, which great defenses didn't have a big in the paint? Though I guess Seattle got better after the McKey-Schrempf trade too.

The Bad Boys. yes they were physical in the paint but their best defenders were wings.

[l3bron]

The big man isn't necessarily the anchor. Most great defenses don't have an anchor. They have a great team defense. Usually great defenses have multiple great defenders.

Hm, other than the 70s Knicks, 90s Bulls, and current Heat, which great defenses didn't have a big in the paint? Though I guess Seattle got better after the McKey-Schrempf trade too.

The Bad Boys. yes they were physical in the paint but their best defenders were wings.

Meh, teams like the Grizzlies and Pacers of today showcase better defenses (both anchored by big men) than the Bad Boy Pistons but I don't see how pointing a few outliers changes anything. Duncan's Spurs, The Wallace Towers, the Big 3 Celtics, Hibbert's Pacers, Ewing's Knicks, etc. were all anchored by big men. As noted, you can go throughout NBA history and spot great defensive teams that weren't anchored by defensive bigs (Jordan's Bulls, Lebron's Heat) but big men still have the most value in the league from a team defensive standpoint (which was the point I was making.)

[Sudanese Sensation]

It seems simple...A quality big man is your last line of defense. He can camouflage a lot of flaws.

[Shill Jackson]

Jordan played during the WEAKest decade of the NBA. His numbers are inflated.
He also was coddled and promoted by Stern.

he was also suspended

[Y2K]

Hm, other than the 70s Knicks, 90s Bulls, and current Heat, which great defenses didn't have a big in the paint? Though I guess Seattle got better after the McKey-Schrempf trade too.

The Bad Boys. yes they were physical in the paint but their best defenders were wings.

Meh, teams like the Grizzlies and Pacers of today showcase better defenses (both anchored by big men) than the Bad Boy Pistons but I don't see how pointing a few outliers changes anything. Duncan's Spurs, The Wallace Towers, the Big 3 Celtics, Hibbert's Pacers, Ewing's Knicks, etc. were all anchored by big men. As noted, you can go throughout NBA history and spot great defensive teams that weren't anchored by defensive bigs (Jordan's Bulls, Lebron's Heat) but big men still have the most value in the league from a team defensive standpoint (which was the point I was making.)

Don't get me wrong. Wasn't In disagreement with you but more reminding folks that great team defense is based on more than just a big man being an/the anchor. Great defenses are great inside and out. I feel that perimeter defense is devalued greatly by many people.

But over the last 10 years or so the emphasis on great perimeter defense has seem to be rising.

[Y2K]

Hm, other than the 70s Knicks, 90s Bulls, and current Heat, which great defenses didn't have a big in the paint? Though I guess Seattle got better after the McKey-Schrempf trade too.

The Bad Boys. yes they were physical in the paint but their best defenders were wings.

Meh, teams like the Grizzlies and Pacers of today showcase better defenses (both anchored by big men) than the Bad Boy Pistons but I don't see how pointing a few outliers changes anything. Duncan's Spurs, The Wallace Towers, the Big 3 Celtics, Hibbert's Pacers, Ewing's Knicks, etc. were all anchored by big men. As noted, you can go throughout NBA history and spot great defensive teams that weren't anchored by defensive bigs (Jordan's Bulls, Lebron's Heat) but big men still have the most value in the league from a team defensive standpoint (which was the point I was making.)

But also, it is inaccurate to make that comparison between the Bad Boys and modern defenses. They can only be analyzed within their respective eras.