Robceltsfan wrote:town bidness wrote:sorry, i forgot about this thread.
"Laker fans keep grasping at this falsehood of Kobe being the clutchest player of all-time."
it's just reality you cant accept because you must keep your delusion alive.
"Simply put, it isn't true. He may have the most game winners of all-time, but if he does, that's only because he likely has at least TWICE as many game winning attempts as any other player in history."
right..... just like how kareem is the greatest scorer of all time and you know what... he's taken the most shots of all time also. jordan is in third place as far as attempts go and imagine that.... he's third place all time points scored.
it's pretty simple how that works. if you do it the most you get the credit of being the best at it. here's a bit more of common sense for you, "more game winners = good". everyone on earth knows who is going to take the shot at the end and he's still made the most even though he took the most. how could he make more than other closers while taking less game winners genius? lol. another terrible argument. basically logic free nonsense.
"And for you to say Bird wasn't an amazing defensive player is also short-sighted."
LOL, i watched him and he was average at best to slightly below average. amazing defensive players can make more than 3 second all defensive teams and DEFINITELY more than ZERO first teams. this is just a completely superficial view of what you are comparing here... not even going in any real depth. unbelievable.
give me a fucking break. let me guess... dirk is a tremendous defender also in your myopic view of bball?
"But did you know that Bird led the NBA in defensive win shares FOUR times? Kobe never did that even once. I place Kobe in the Derek Jeter category of defensive player........grossly overrated. Bird averaged more steals during his career."
LOL, holy shit you are desperate. defensive win share four times eh? woooooooow.
steals? good for bird. i'm sure iverson was a defensive giant in your eyes.
good thing the coaches for the nba were not as terrible at simple analysis over the last 35 years. no one with a fulling function brain would say this. i actually fear for your mental well being.
kobe with all of his nine defensive first teams from coaches in the league and many years of stellar defense is 'grossly overrated' but bird and his defensive win share is solid proof in your eyes? mind you again that is in the purview of the simple minded, superficial bball fan.
"Bird has a better career defensive rating (101 versus 105 for Kobe), despite playing in a slightly faster paced era. Bird's defense was underrated, Kobe's overrated. I'd give Kobe the slight edge defensively because he's simply more athletic. But the difference is not that great."
LOL... holy shit.. all of that just to concede to reality in the most backhanded, intellectually dishonest and detached from reality sort of way that kobe is indeed the better defender because he is "more athletic". lol, either you have a character flaw of some sort or you must think low of me.
kobe is the more athletic player in every facet and kobe was the SMARTER player in every facet of the gave as evidenced by his PLAY and SUCCESS.
there is nothing you can do about it either. plus he didnt even need the greatest front line in history either, lol.
why did you focus so narrowly on this and dodge all of the other details in my post prior? you assertion about birds shooting, etc was stomped on.
right..... just like how kareem is the greatest scorer of all time and you know what... he's taken the most shots of all time also. jordan is in third place as far as attempts go and imagine that.... he's third place all time points scored.
it's pretty simple how that works. if you do it the most you get the credit of being the best at it. here's a bit more of common sense for you, "more game winners = good". everyone on earth knows who is going to take the shot at the end and he's still made the most even though he took the most. how could he make more than other closers while taking less game winners genius? lol. another terrible argument. basically logic free nonsense.
I really don't know the stats, but for arguments sake we'll do this.
Kobe has 35 game winners in his career.
Bird has 25 game winners in his career.
Kobe has taken 120 game winning shot attempts.
Bird has taken 70 game winning shot attempts.
So to you, Kobe is more clutch because he hit 10 more game winners despite taking 50 more shot attempts? And you say my logic is flawed? You can't compare something like Kobe's game winners against Kareem's scoring. True, both are volume stats, but Kobe's is situational and "clutchness" is based on percentages, not volume. Kobe hit game winners at a very pedestrian pace but getting 2, 3, maybe 4 times as many buzzer beater attempts as other stars does NOT make him the clutchest of all-time. I'm sorry you believe that is the case. It isn't.
And please tell me when you stomped on the portion of my argument where Bird was a better shooter. This isn't debatable. Bird IS the better shooter on almost every single level possible. Kobe can dunk better than Bird, so he has that.
So to you, Kobe is more clutch because he hit 10 more game winners despite taking 50 more shot attempts?
i'd rather use the real stats but even in your scenario.. YES KOBE IS MORE CLUTCH FOR DELIVERING MORE IN THE CLUTCH REGARDLESS OF YOUR PERSONAL FEELINGS. those game winners are not subject to pace, to number of possessions, etc so it's a very straight forward metric wouldnt you agree? either you sealed the game or you didnt regardless of era. it's like trying to argue 5 is more than 10. worrying about the percentage, etc is for the feeble minded that never get to kobes' level of play.
"And you say my logic is flawed?"
i do and i have aptly pointed out your flawed non-logic in detail.
"True, both are volume stats, but Kobe's is situational and "clutchness" is based on percentages, not volume."
lol... really? did you want to reframe this i think your thought process has become muddled.
"Kobe hit game winners at a very pedestrian pace but getting 2, 3, maybe 4 times as many buzzer beater attempts as other stars does NOT make him the clutchest of all-time. I'm sorry you believe that is the case. It isn't."
ok fair enough... i'll play along. if kobe knocking down game winners is pedestrian even though we all know he has the most all time... who is an example of exemplary closing and why?
"And please tell me when you stomped on the portion of my argument where Bird was a better shooter. This isn't debatable. Bird IS the better shooter on almost every single level possible. Kobe can dunk better than Bird, so he has that"
re-read the entire thread if you must. there is a record of the conversation above, lol. no bird was not a better shooter neither. a 4% difference while shooting half as many points to the opposite.... unless you think birds 3pt% would stay the same or go up if he doubled his 3pt output... you cant believe that.[/quote]
OK, since you seem to like volume, let's see you deny this. If Kobe has taken the most buzzer beaters, regardless of % for your sake, wouldn't that lead you to believe he's missed the most buzzer beaters of all-time? Kobe has choked in the clutch more than any player in history because he has more missed buzzer beaters than anybody else.
Now, I know this isn't the truth, but by your logic that's how I should see it. I mean, if Kobe missed the most buzzer beaters all-time, that must make his the least clutch player ever, right?
C'mon man, you're losing badly at this point.[/quote]
"K, since you seem to like volume, let's see you deny this. If Kobe has taken the most buzzer beaters, regardless of % for your sake, wouldn't that lead you to believe he's missed the most buzzer beaters of all-time? Kobe has choked in the clutch more than any player in history because he has more missed buzzer beaters than anybody else."
what difference does it make if he misses the most... IF HE'S MADE THE MOST? a high percentage is what exactly? it's nothing.... fodder for nerds that cant analyze the game for shit.
to make the most shots, one has to take the most shots. do you think it's easy to get off game winners when the entire universe knows exactly who is getting the ball? you are getting worse my man.
choked in the clutch? you dont know what it means to choke do you?
you have serious issues with logical progression.
"jordan was the greatest scorer of the 90s only because he took the most shots.. and that means he sucks." < bob... you sound that dumb right now.
good idea on the color.
