Board Census: Jordan or Lebron for GOAT.

[Deez]

What's wrong with Bill at #1?

It’s almost comparable to Artie saying the magic are a legit contender to win the East.

[Alex_Murphy]

1. Russell
2. KAJ
3. MJ
4. LeBron

Lol

[elartman1973]

What's wrong with Bill at #1?

It’s almost comparable to Artie saying the magic are a legit contender to win the East.

You're a bulls fan. You aren't allowed to talk about VASTLY superior teams that actually have futures you wish your team could have

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

What's wrong with Bill at #1?

Nothing, and pretty much everyone knows it.

House is 100% trolling. I doubt he could give the slightest shit about the topic.

LNS is half trolling. He gets the case but still doesn't buy in. That's ok.

TDK is blinded by his 90s/MJ/Bulls blinders, and he's kind of dim. Deez, well, he's just dumb as a brick.

[thedangerouskitchen]

The only way Bill Russell can be considered the GOAT is if Defense and Winning are (by far and away) the most important criteria used... and if that's the case LeBron isn't even Top 5 all-time.

The problem with many arm-chair-couch-potatoes is they cherry-pick different criteria based on the player in question, instead of establishing a set of criteria to be used to rate/rank all players equally and consistently.

For instance (in no order):

Offense
Defense
Winning
Awards/Accolades
Clutch performances
Iconic moments
Impact on game
Leadership
Overall dominance relative to peers (individually and team)
Quality of competition
Peak/Longevity

... with each category broken down into sub categories if/when needed.

When you do that you will undoubtedly come to the conclusion that there is only one (1) true GOAT... and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

[lettherebehouse]

What's wrong with Bill at #1?

You want to know what’s wrong with Russell at #1, or even top 10 at all? Well I’ll tell you.

Throughout most of his career he played in a league that had anywhere between 8 to 12 NBA teams across the league, total. The athletes he competed against were guys who today would be ballboys before ever being a pro athlete. No parity, no competition, and still was just a below average offensive player. In fact, 44% career FG percentage puts him at an Allen Iverson efficiency level, pathetic (he once said shooting is overrated). So what he swatted a few shots and runs faster than a horde of 5’10 white guys who just got back from Vietnam, he had the privilege of playing on a team that monopolized the league’s talent at the time. His ring totals reflect the state of the league at the time, not his dominance. Real ones already know this. I do have him in my top 35 though, below Wilt.

The Russell conversation is such a joke to me that I really lost all interest in it.

[PhutureDynasty]

What's wrong with Bill at #1?

You want to know what’s wrong with Russell at #1, or even top 10 at all? Well I’ll tell you.

Throughout most of his career he played in a league that had anywhere between 8 to 12 NBA teams across the league, total. The athletes he competed against were guys who today would be ballboys before ever being a pro athlete. No parity, no competition, and still was just a below average offensive player. In fact, 44% career FG percentage puts him at an Allen Iverson efficiency level, pathetic (he once said shooting is overrated). So what he swatted a few shots and runs faster than a horde of 5’10 white guys who just got back from Vietnam, he had the privilege of playing on a team that monopolized the league’s talent at the time. His ring totals reflect the state of the league at the time, not his dominance. Real ones already know this. I do have him in my top 35 though, below Wilt.

The Russell conversation is such a joke to me that I really lost all interest in it.

[thedangerouskitchen]

During their respective Championship seasons Bill Russell needed to win just 25 Playoff series for his 11 rings... on the contrary Jordan won 24 series (just one less) yet came away with just 6 rings.

When you figure out "what's wrong with that picture?" you'll have (yet) another reason why it's difficult (if not impossible) to rate Russell over Jordan, let alone call Russ the GOAT.

[LeBronMonsterDunk]

For instance (in no order):

Offense
Defense
Winning
Awards/Accolades
Clutch performances
Iconic moments
Impact on game
Leadership
Overall dominance relative to peers (individually and team)
Quality of competition
Peak/Longevity

... with each category broken down into sub categories if/when needed.

When you do that you will undoubtedly come to the conclusion that there is only one (1) true GOAT... and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

Offense - LeBron (30/5 vs 27/7)
Defense - Jordan
Winning - Wash (65.9 vs 64.7)
Awards - Jordan
Clutch performances - Defined how? Number of times being clutch? - LeBron Amplitude of clutch performances? - Jordan
Iconic moments - Undefined
Impact on game - Jordan
Leadership - Undefined
Overall dominance relative to peers - LeBron
Quality of competition - LeBron by a mile
Peak - Jordan
Longevity - LeBron

I count 4 clear wins for LeBron, 4 clear wins for Jordan, 1 tie, and 3 undefinable/subjective metrics.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

What's wrong with Bill at #1?

You want to know what’s wrong with Russell at #1, or even top 10 at all? Well I’ll tell you.

Throughout most of his career he played in a league that had anywhere between 8 to 12 NBA teams across the league, total. The athletes he competed against were guys who today would be ballboys before ever being a pro athlete. No parity, no competition, and still was just a below average offensive player. In fact, 44% career FG percentage puts him at an Allen Iverson efficiency level, pathetic (he once said shooting is overrated). So what he swatted a few shots and runs faster than a horde of 5’10 white guys who just got back from Vietnam, he had the privilege of playing on a team that monopolized the league’s talent at the time. His ring totals reflect the state of the league at the time, not his dominance. Real ones already know this. I do have him in my top 35 though, below Wilt.

The Russell conversation is such a joke to me that I really lost all interest in it.

Nice Try.

[Robceltsfan]

What's wrong with Bill at #1?

You want to know what’s wrong with Russell at #1, or even top 10 at all? Well I’ll tell you.

Throughout most of his career he played in a league that had anywhere between 8 to 12 NBA teams across the league, total. The athletes he competed against were guys who today would be ballboys before ever being a pro athlete. No parity, no competition, and still was just a below average offensive player. In fact, 44% career FG percentage puts him at an Allen Iverson efficiency level, pathetic (he once said shooting is overrated). So what he swatted a few shots and runs faster than a horde of 5’10 white guys who just got back from Vietnam, he had the privilege of playing on a team that monopolized the league’s talent at the time. His ring totals reflect the state of the league at the time, not his dominance. Real ones already know this. I do have him in my top 35 though, below Wilt.

The Russell conversation is such a joke to me that I really lost all interest in it.

This take is fine, so long as Wilt isn’t sniffing your top 25 either.

Consistency is key!

[ElJorge]

What's wrong with Bill at #1?

You want to know what’s wrong with Russell at #1, or even top 10 at all? Well I’ll tell you.

Throughout most of his career he played in a league that had anywhere between 8 to 12 NBA teams across the league, total. The athletes he competed against were guys who today would be ballboys before ever being a pro athlete. No parity, no competition, and still was just a below average offensive player. In fact, 44% career FG percentage puts him at an Allen Iverson efficiency level, pathetic (he once said shooting is overrated). So what he swatted a few shots and runs faster than a horde of 5’10 white guys who just got back from Vietnam, he had the privilege of playing on a team that monopolized the league’s talent at the time. His ring totals reflect the state of the league at the time, not his dominance. Real ones already know this. I do have him in my top 35 though, below Wilt.

The Russell conversation is such a joke to me that I really lost all interest in it.

100% agreed. He was definitely an elite athlete… for 1935 or whenever he suited up for Boston.

[thedangerouskitchen]

For instance (in no order):

Offense
Defense
Winning
Awards/Accolades
Clutch performances
Iconic moments
Impact on game
Leadership
Overall dominance relative to peers (individually and team)
Quality of competition
Peak/Longevity

... with each category broken down into sub categories if/when needed.

When you do that you will undoubtedly come to the conclusion that there is only one (1) true GOAT... and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

Offense - LeBron (30/5 vs 27/7)
Defense - Jordan
Winning - Wash (65.9 vs 64.7)
Awards - Jordan
Clutch performances - Defined how? Number of times being clutch? - LeBron Amplitude of clutch performances? - Jordan
Iconic moments - Undefined
Impact on game - Jordan
Leadership - Undefined
Overall dominance relative to peers - LeBron
Quality of competition - LeBron by a mile
Peak - Jordan
Longevity - LeBron

I count 4 clear wins for LeBron, 4 clear wins for Jordan, 1 tie, and 3 undefinable/subjective metrics.

Um, no junior. Not even close on dominance relative to peers and quality of competion. The real answer is MJ and Wash, respectively.

Iconic moments? How about "The Shot"... "The Shrug"... the "Last Shot"... the "Flu Game"... "63 against the Celtics"... and on and on and on. Jordan by far and away, and it's not even close.

Leadership? Jordan's team never lost to a lower seed, never lost in the Finals, never lost more than 2 games in a row for a decade, never slacked on Defense, etc. LeBron is the King of whining, the King of Flopping, has been a statue on Defense for a decade, failed to make the playoffs despite 4 other HOFERS around him, famous for throwing his teammates under the bus after losses. etc., etc. Again, Jordan by far and away, and it's not even close.

Winning: 6-0 in the Finals vs. 4-6. That's a wash? Jordan's Bulls didn't lose 3 games in a row for the entire decade of the 90's, dominated the regular season, never went to Game 7 in the Finals, etc. Once again, MJ by a landslide.

Offense: A wash? LOLOL... ordan was always the go-to guy who never played with a teammate who commanded the double team. LeBron often deferred the Scoring to lessor talented teammates. Who you crappin' with James' extra couple Assists per game making up for MJ's unprecedented ability to Score at will. Again, advantage MJ.

Nice try though...

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

What is somewhat ironic in all of this, is the general lack of appreciation for recency bias, and obviously the counter to that where people dismiss what was accomplished by earlier generations. Russell has been retired for about 55 years now, and the people who revered him are mostly dead. The only people who truly appreciate his greatness are those that have done the not so easy research to appreciate the impact he had. In 1982, the baskteball writers association of America voted him GOAT, but most of those guys are dead too!

Because of his shoes, MJ will cling a little longer, but without doubt, in another 30 years, he will be hard pressed to be seen as top 5 all time by then hoops fans. Maybe not even top 10, who knows. By then, LeBron will be descending lists as well, but probably viewed higher than MJ because there will still be far more people who remember him versus those who remember MJ.

It is human nature. We want to believe we are witnessing the greatest (especially people afflicted with G.D.D. (Glory Days Disease)). But that isn't the case.

No one has come close to dominating an era relative to his peers the way Russell did in the NBA. No one is even close. Only one player (KAJ) has come close to dominating the way Russell did in college hoops. But KAJ did it at UCLA, under Wooden, a program that has won 11 titles and was in its heyday when he played there. Russell did it at USF, a school that has won the title exactly twice, the two titles Russell won.

[lettherebehouse]

What is somewhat ironic in all of this, is the general lack of appreciation for recency bias, and obviously the counter to that where people dismiss what was accomplished by earlier generations. Russell has been retired for about 55 years now, and the people who revered him are mostly dead. The only people who truly appreciate his greatness are those that have done the not so easy research to appreciate the impact he had. In 1982, the baskteball writers association of America voted him GOAT, but most of those guys are dead too!

Because of his shoes, MJ will cling a little longer, but without doubt, in another 30 years, he will be hard pressed to be seen as top 5 all time by then hoops fans. Maybe not even top 10, who knows. By then, LeBron will be descending lists as well, but probably viewed higher than MJ because there will still be far more people who remember him versus those who remember MJ.

It is human nature. We want to believe we are witnessing the greatest (especially people afflicted with G.D.D. (Glory Days Disease)). But that isn't the case.

No one has come close to dominating an era relative to his peers the way Russell did in the NBA. No one is even close. Only one player (KAJ) has come close to dominating the way Russell did in college hoops. But KAJ did it at UCLA, under Wooden, a program that has won 11 titles and was in its heyday when he played there. Russell did it at USF, a school that has won the title exactly twice, the two titles Russell won.

Boston systemically running the league for a decade - good
UCLA systemically running the league for a decade - not good

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

What is somewhat ironic in all of this, is the general lack of appreciation for recency bias, and obviously the counter to that where people dismiss what was accomplished by earlier generations. Russell has been retired for about 55 years now, and the people who revered him are mostly dead. The only people who truly appreciate his greatness are those that have done the not so easy research to appreciate the impact he had. In 1982, the baskteball writers association of America voted him GOAT, but most of those guys are dead too!

Because of his shoes, MJ will cling a little longer, but without doubt, in another 30 years, he will be hard pressed to be seen as top 5 all time by then hoops fans. Maybe not even top 10, who knows. By then, LeBron will be descending lists as well, but probably viewed higher than MJ because there will still be far more people who remember him versus those who remember MJ.

It is human nature. We want to believe we are witnessing the greatest (especially people afflicted with G.D.D. (Glory Days Disease)). But that isn't the case.

No one has come close to dominating an era relative to his peers the way Russell did in the NBA. No one is even close. Only one player (KAJ) has come close to dominating the way Russell did in college hoops. But KAJ did it at UCLA, under Wooden, a program that has won 11 titles and was in its heyday when he played there. Russell did it at USF, a school that has won the title exactly twice, the two titles Russell won.

Boston systemically running the league for a decade - good
UCLA systemically running the league for a decade - not good

Another nice try!! But you got it wrong. It was Russell running the league for 13 years: 11 rings with one of the two losses because he got injured in the finals. Celts won shit before him and took them 5 years to win another one after he left. Russell was everyone's daddy.

Edit: With the two USF titles before turning pro, it was 13 titles in 15 years, or titles in 87% of seasons played!

[lettherebehouse]

What is somewhat ironic in all of this, is the general lack of appreciation for recency bias, and obviously the counter to that where people dismiss what was accomplished by earlier generations. Russell has been retired for about 55 years now, and the people who revered him are mostly dead. The only people who truly appreciate his greatness are those that have done the not so easy research to appreciate the impact he had. In 1982, the baskteball writers association of America voted him GOAT, but most of those guys are dead too!

Because of his shoes, MJ will cling a little longer, but without doubt, in another 30 years, he will be hard pressed to be seen as top 5 all time by then hoops fans. Maybe not even top 10, who knows. By then, LeBron will be descending lists as well, but probably viewed higher than MJ because there will still be far more people who remember him versus those who remember MJ.

It is human nature. We want to believe we are witnessing the greatest (especially people afflicted with G.D.D. (Glory Days Disease)). But that isn't the case.

No one has come close to dominating an era relative to his peers the way Russell did in the NBA. No one is even close. Only one player (KAJ) has come close to dominating the way Russell did in college hoops. But KAJ did it at UCLA, under Wooden, a program that has won 11 titles and was in its heyday when he played there. Russell did it at USF, a school that has won the title exactly twice, the two titles Russell won.

Boston systemically running the league for a decade - good
UCLA systemically running the league for a decade - not good

Another nice try!! But you got it wrong. It was Russell running the league for 13 years: 11 rings with one of the two losses because he got injured in the finals. Celts won shit before him and took them 5 years to win another one after he left. Russell was everyone's daddy.

That’s a helluva lot of numbers hanging in their rafters for such a “one man show”.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Boston systemically running the league for a decade - good
UCLA systemically running the league for a decade - not good

Another nice try!! But you got it wrong. It was Russell running the league for 13 years: 11 rings with one of the two losses because he got injured in the finals. Celts won shit before him and took them 5 years to win another one after he left. Russell was everyone's daddy.

That’s a helluva lot of numbers hanging in their rafters for such a “one man show”.

Come on. You were doing so well! That isn't even close to a good try. I'm sure you can do better! Just try a little harder, I know you can do it!!!

[lettherebehouse]

Another nice try!! But you got it wrong. It was Russell running the league for 13 years: 11 rings with one of the two losses because he got injured in the finals. Celts won shit before him and took them 5 years to win another one after he left. Russell was everyone's daddy.

That’s a helluva lot of numbers hanging in their rafters for such a “one man show”.

Come on. You were doing so well! That isn't even close to a good try. I'm sure you can do better! Just try a little harder, I know you can do it!!!

Are you saying those are not the jerseys of hall of famer teammates/coaches of Bill Russell’s title teams?



I mean, if you’re saying it was all Russell and he was everyone else’s papi, who are these guys jerseys hung in the rafters?

[ElJorge]

This is one of those hills Grizz always chooses to die on. I’ll give him points for consistency at least. But Russell as the GOAT is just one of those arguments that doesn’t work. I joke about shitty eras but yea… his era was completely watered down. You had Wilt going apeshit for 50ppg, Oscar Robertson averaging trip dubs, Elgin Baylor with a 38ppg 18rpg season lol… the game was way unrefined and I have a hard time taking it serious pre-merger.