Michael Jordan’s competition

[Da Stars.]

Remember when MJ couldn’t post up Muggsy Bogues?

Muggsy would have been whistled for at least 5 fouls on that ONE play in today's sissy-soft NBA.

Absolute fact.

There were fewer free throw attempts this season per game than any other year in NBA history. This isn't 2006 when handcheck was first enforced. There are fewer calls than ever, and it's not because there isn't a ton of contact. If you actually watched, you might have a clue.

Gotta be honest. If I watched One Half of one percent of the games you watched, in my humble opinion. A foul could be called every trip up or down the floor. Just my opinion.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Remember when MJ couldn’t post up Muggsy Bogues?

Muggsy would have been whistled for at least 5 fouls on that ONE play in today's sissy-soft NBA.

Absolute fact.

There were fewer free throw attempts this season per game than any other year in NBA history. This isn't 2006 when handcheck was first enforced. There are fewer calls than ever, and it's not because there isn't a ton of contact. If you actually watched, you might have a clue.

I'll take the word of the NBA Commissioner, the NBA VP of Ops, and a BOATLOAD of "current" and former NBA players AND coaches (regarding how weak/soft today's Defense is relative to the 90's - 00's) over your heavily bias opinion.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Muggsy would have been whistled for at least 5 fouls on that ONE play in today's sissy-soft NBA.

Absolute fact.

There were fewer free throw attempts this season per game than any other year in NBA history. This isn't 2006 when handcheck was first enforced. There are fewer calls than ever, and it's not because there isn't a ton of contact. If you actually watched, you might have a clue.

I'll take the word of the NBA Commissioner, the NBA VP of Ops, and a BOATLOAD of "current" and former NBA players AND coaches (regarding how weak/soft today's Defense is relative to the 90's - 00's) over your heavily bias opinion.

I accept your surrender.

[thedangerouskitchen]

There were fewer free throw attempts this season per game than any other year in NBA history. This isn't 2006 when handcheck was first enforced. There are fewer calls than ever, and it's not because there isn't a ton of contact. If you actually watched, you might have a clue.

I'll take the word of the NBA Commissioner, the NBA VP of Ops, and a BOATLOAD of "current" and former NBA players AND coaches (regarding how weak/soft today's Defense is relative to the 90's - 00's) over your heavily bias opinion.

I accept your surrender.

I was being nice, grizz... I could have called you a clueless fool for believing there's anywhere near the level of physicality today as there was during the 80's - 00's; however instead I cited the "experts" (ie; the actual players, coaches AND the league itself) as proof to back up my position.

What do you have as evidence to the contrary except your bias opinion as an arm-chair/couch potato fan?



You've been beaten like a drum on this topic. Walk it off already.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

I'll take the word of the NBA Commissioner, the NBA VP of Ops, and a BOATLOAD of "current" and former NBA players AND coaches (regarding how weak/soft today's Defense is relative to the 90's - 00's) over your heavily bias opinion.

I accept your surrender.

I was being nice, grizz... I could have called you a clueless fool for believing there's anywhere near the level of physicality today as there was during the 80's - 00's; however instead I cited the "experts" (ie; the actual players, coaches AND the league itself) as proof to back up my position.

What do you have as evidence to the contrary except your bias opinion as an arm-chair/couch potato fan?



You've been beaten like a drum on this topic. Walk it off already.

In your imagination guy. You don't watch and you don't have a clue. All you've got is the logical fallacy, appeal to authority, which I've already eviscerated in an earlier thread where you surrendered again.

What's funny is DaStars, who's definitely on Team Jordan eviscerated you too a few posts ago. He said fouls could be called every possession in today's NBA.

I don't have a dog in the fight. You do. I only care about data and evidence. One of us is very biased. It isn't me.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Muggsy would have been whistled for at least 5 fouls on that ONE play in today's sissy-soft NBA.

Absolute fact.

There were fewer free throw attempts this season per game than any other year in NBA history. This isn't 2006 when handcheck was first enforced. There are fewer calls than ever, and it's not because there isn't a ton of contact. If you actually watched, you might have a clue.

Gotta be honest. If I watched One Half of one percent of the games you watched, in my humble opinion. A foul could be called every trip up or down the floor. Just my opinion.

You are a lot more realistic than a few others on this board who don't need to be named.

[Bush4Ever.]

In reality, if you strictly enforced the rulebook to the letter-of-the-law (vs. the spirit), you could call fouls on probably 80 percent of plays in NBA history.

In fact, according to Dean Smith in one of his books, there was a college coach of some note who basically told his players to foul every time down the court, because the officials are seemingly wed to the idea that only a certain amount of fouls can be called in a game. So for example if there are "supposed to be" around 17 fouls a game in college ball for a team, it's better to have 17 fouls called against 60 actual fouls compared to 17 fouls called against 20 actual fouls, because officials are generally loathe to go wildly outside the norm in terms of calling fouls, while these "free" fouls lower the likelihood of allowing points.

Basketball is such a brutal sport to officiate though. I don't envy refs.

[thedangerouskitchen]

I accept your surrender.

I was being nice, grizz... I could have called you a clueless fool for believing there's anywhere near the level of physicality today as there was during the 80's - 00's; however instead I cited the "experts" (ie; the actual players, coaches AND the league itself) as proof to back up my position.

What do you have as evidence to the contrary except your bias opinion as an arm-chair/couch potato fan?



You've been beaten like a drum on this topic. Walk it off already.

In your imagination guy. You don't watch and you don't have a clue. All you've got is the logical fallacy, appeal to authority, which I've already eviscerated in an earlier thread where you surrendered again.

What's funny is DaStars, who's definitely on Team Jordan eviscerated you too a few posts ago. He said fouls could be called every possession in today's NBA.

I don't have a dog in the fight. You do. I only care about data and evidence. One of us is very biased. It isn't me.

And..??? How is that indicative of the "level of physicality/Defense" in the league when the exact same thing can be said of the 90's - 00's, or any Era actually (ie; "fouls could be called every possession")?



The fact of the matter is the players and coaches (past AND current) along with the league itself confirm that today's Defense is soft/weak relative to the 90's-00's... and no grizz, being a couch-potato fan who watches 1-2 games a week (ie; you) does not make your opinion valid.

You are wrong. Deal with it and move on already.

[manchild98]

As someone who hadn't watched the NBA in about 5 years, but did watch pretty much all of the playoff games this year....I was surprised that it was as physical as it was. I'm old school so I'm willing to let a lot of fouls go along with the bumping and grinding. But there were many times when I was downright surprised the refs swallowed the whistle so much. There was a lot of consistent contact not being called above the 3 point line (hand checking, reaching, bumping, etc)....and it was happening in multiple series.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

In reality, if you strictly enforced the rulebook to the letter-of-the-law (vs. the spirit), you could call fouls on probably 80 percent of plays in NBA history.

In fact, according to Dean Smith in one of his books, there was a college coach of some note who basically told his players to foul every time down the court, because the officials are seemingly wed to the idea that only a certain amount of fouls can be called in a game. So for example if there are "supposed to be" around 17 fouls a game in college ball for a team, it's better to have 17 fouls called against 60 actual fouls compared to 17 fouls called against 20 actual fouls, because officials are generally loathe to go wildly outside the norm in terms of calling fouls, while these "free" fouls lower the likelihood of allowing points.

Basketball is such a brutal sport to officiate though. I don't envy refs.

The rules haven't meaningfully changed since 2005-06 when the handcheck rules were strictly enforced and prior to that, 2002 when zone defenses were allowed. The difference is pretty much all in the enforcement and interpretation. If you remember in 2006 when the Heat won the title and D Wade had a parade to the free throw line in the finals. The enforcement was comical. You could literally have muggings going on in the post that went uncalled, while really incidental contact from a guard driving to the hoop was called religiously. There wasn't a huge increase in FTAs (maybe 5 a game or so per team) but the split radically changed with the vast majority of attempts going to wings and away from post players. Gradually over time, that balance has returned and the enforcement is such that there is balance between post fouls and perimeter fouls.

Like you mentioned, if rules really were strictly enforced to the letter, you could probably call 50 FTAs per game, rather than the 21.7 FTAs that were called in this past season. I think the balance is pretty good right now. I really disliked 2006 and a few years after that while referees adjusted (remember the first thing was "verticality") but now the enforcement is generally pretty good.

An underrated change that has helped increase scoring is the reset of the shot clock to 14 seconds, rather than 24. It just adds that many more possessions, all things being equal.

Hoops I believe is the toughest of all sports to officiate. There are just so many potential calls and non-calls every game.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

As someone who hadn't watched the NBA in about 5 years, but did watch pretty much all of the playoff games this year....I was surprised that it was as physical as it was. I'm old school so I'm willing to let a lot of fouls go along with the bumping and grinding. But there were many times when I was downright surprised the refs swallowed the whistle so much. There was a lot of consistent contact not being called above the 3 point line (hand checking, reaching, bumping, etc)....and it was happening in multiple series.

When one watches the games, one becomes aware of things like this. When you don't, you just talk out of your ass.

[ElJorge]

The fact of the matter is the players and coaches (past AND current) along with the league itself confirm that today's Defense is soft/weak relative to the 90's-00's... and no grizz, being a couch-potato fan who watches 1-2 games a week (ie; you) does not make your opinion valid.

Jesus Christ… quit repeating this over and over like a lunatic. It’s a tiny handful of people you’re quoting, not the entire league. You literally don’t even watch the NBA anymore so how are you going to comment on the level of play? I can find just as many quotes saying today’s players are more skilled than ever, but who the hell cares? Appealing to authority is one of the most retarded logical fallacies. They’re giving an opinion, not using any concrete data or facts. How do you not grasp this?

[thedangerouskitchen]

The fact of the matter is the players and coaches (past AND current) along with the league itself confirm that today's Defense is soft/weak relative to the 90's-00's... and no grizz, being a couch-potato fan who watches 1-2 games a week (ie; you) does not make your opinion valid.

Jesus Christ… quit repeating this over and over like a lunatic. It’s a tiny handful of people you’re quoting, not the entire league. You literally don’t even watch the NBA anymore so how are you going to comment on the level of play? I can find just as many quotes saying today’s players are more skilled than ever, but who the hell cares? Appealing to authority is one of the most retarded logical fallacies. They’re giving an opinion, not using any concrete data or facts. How do you not grasp this?

I'm quoting the LEAGUE itself (ie; the NBA Commissioner and the NBA's VP of Operations), and those two individuals alone hold more credibility on the issue than all the Modern Era couch-potato fans combined... or do you believe Silver and Dumars purposely threw the Defense/Physicality of this Era under the bus just for shits and giggles?



Now add in a plethora of current NBA players who share the same sentiment, as well as several current coaches and then yeah... it makes the Modern Era couch-potato fan look foolish for trying to pretend today's NBA is something that the actual experts say it's not.

Yes today's players can dribble fancier... a HUGE advantage when the defender can't lay a finger on you BUT not much of an edge when the defender was allowed to guard his man like Muggsy was guarding MJ in that clip.

Yes, on average players shoot the 3 better today... but given that 40% of the shots in the league come from that distance (meaning the players take/practice said shots more than ever before) I would expect league-average to be MUCH higher than it is, instead of just "slighly" better than what it was in the late 90's/00's.

Likewise, relative to the 90's-00's today's Modern Era is cream-puff soft Defensively with rules that heavily favor the Offense... and a paint/rim that is defended less than at any other time in league history, allowing players like LeFraud to convert 75% of his shots from that range (which doesn't make him great, just makes him lucky that all the Bigs today are on the perimeter).

These are facts... and just because this truth hurts some posters on this board, just because the league itself exposed its OWN product, doesn't make me a lunatic for repeating it.

[ElJorge]

“The league itself” = two people

[Bush4Ever.]

Isn't repetition a major feature of autism?

[ElJorge]

Isn't repetition a major feature of autism?

Yea… considering 99% of tdk’s posts are either about Trump, the evil Left, or LeFraud… I mean it’s hard to ignore the evidence.

Not being able to admit you’re wrong is also a sign of autism.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Isn't repetition a major feature of autism?

Yea… considering 99% of tdk’s posts are either about Trump, the evil Left, or LeFraud… I mean it’s hard to ignore the evidence.

Not being able to admit you’re wrong is also a sign of autism.

He's never going to change. Him and Artie are the two of the most curious people I have ever come across. The sample size is large enough to be certain that we know how they act and think. No way it is "pretend". Nobody could consistently be pretty much exactly the same and not break character for twenty plus years. It's eerie.

They are kind of mirror images of each other. Artie will defend anything about Orlando to the death. He completely misrepresents things that are known as factual if they are pejorative to his state, and city in particular. TDK does the same thing with Chicago, from its pizza to its suburbs to its athletes throughout history. Artie defends his generation as the greatest since sliced bread the same way TDK defends the 90s as the last generation of "real men". They both have the self awareness of bricks and I don't think either one of them has ever changed their mind on anything on any topic here in 20 plus years of posting. It's crazy.

[Da Stars.]

There were fewer free throw attempts this season per game than any other year in NBA history. This isn't 2006 when handcheck was first enforced. There are fewer calls than ever, and it's not because there isn't a ton of contact. If you actually watched, you might have a clue.

Gotta be honest. If I watched One Half of one percent of the games you watched, in my humble opinion. A foul could be called every trip up or down the floor. Just my opinion.

You are a lot more realistic than a few others on this board who don't need to be named.

In my humble opinion, holding could be called on every play in football. 4-8 more penalties called in hockey. We need a robot to call balls and strikes in baseball. But what does an old drunk know, right?

[Alex_Murphy]

Michael Jordan didn’t have any competition.

[Titan18]

Good convo gents. Lots of new information provided and minds changed