21-8-9 for LeGOAT on 69% shooting

[Bush4Ever.]

LOL

Jordan had a TS+ of 93 with the Wizards.
Lebron had a TS+ 109 last year with the Lakers.

Lebron was not only goofy-better in a vacuum, he was also better *relative to his peers* than Jordan.

"Muh physical (you mean unskilled) era" excuses can't address *that* fact. It can help explain the laughable gaps between them in absolute efficiency, but it literally can't speak at all about why Lebron is also way *relatively* better, since everyone in an era plays under the same rules/officiating.

Saying Jordan is better than Lebron peak to peak? Sure, I agree.
Saying Jordan is better overall than Lebron and higher on a GOAT list? I can respect that, and perhaps agree.
Saying Old Jordan is better than Old Lebron, or even approximately equal? Sorry, you get put in the "stan" and "glory days" camp, with no visitation from the rational world. You get ignored and rightfully so.

[Bush4Ever.]

Interesting how these magic "muh easy era" effects didn't extend to anyone in his draft class or even a little bit in the future, who played in the same era/rules/officiating (with the immediate future class also being *younger* during the time period).

Wade averaged 13 points from ages 36-37 in his final two years.
Melo...same thing.
Bosh...out of the NBA entirely (albeit, for a good reason) in his early 30s.
Josh Howard...averaging 7 points a game in last season at age 32.

Next year's class (2004)...

Dwight Howard, 6 points a game at age 36.
Al Jefferson, 7 points a game at age 33.

Next year (2005)....

Chris Paul, averaging 9 and 7 at age 38.
Deron Williams, averaging 8 and 4 at age 32.

Next year (2006)...

LaMarcus Aldrige, averaging 13 a game at age 36

Next year (2007)....

Finally! Someone who can kind of match...Durant at age 35, averaging 27 a game after about 36K minutes of regular season ball to Lebron's 54K minutes (not even counting playoff differences in minutes played, which would favor Lebron by a lot).

So that's all it takes. The GOAT pure skilled scorer in NBA history, minus almost four years of calendar age, minus tens of thousands of NBA minutes on body...all to average 1.3 more points per game on one unit worse efficiency (TS+ 108 vs. 109).

LOL!

[thedangerouskitchen]

Didn't read bush's posts... instead, I will (once again) refer to the comments made by the NBA Commissioner, the NBA VP of Ops, and a boatload of "current" and former players and coaches when they confirmed how weak / soft today's Defense is (relative to the 90's - 00's) and how the rules in place today heavily favor the Offense... especially a player like LeFraud, who this past season took more than half his shots from within 10 feet of the basket in a Modern Era almost completely void of rim/paint defenders/protectors.

Nothing more needs to be said, really... unless you think you know more about the game than the aforementioned experts... in which case you're still entitled to your opinion, even if it makes you look foolish.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Didn't read bush's posts... instead, I will (once again) refer to the comments made by the NBA Commissioner, the NBA VP of Ops, and a boatload of "current" and former players and coaches when they confirmed how weak / soft today's Defense is (relative to the 90's - 00's) and how the rules in place today heavily favor the Offense... especially a player like LeFraud, who this past season took more than half his shots from within 10 feet of the basket in a Modern Era almost completely void of rim/paint defenders/protectors.

Nothing more needs to be said, really... unless you think you know more about the game than the aforementioned experts... in which case you're still entitled to your opinion, even if it makes you look foolish.

Funny, but when I burried you on this before, you turned tail.

And you DEFINITELY read Bush's post and you just don't have a clue how to argue against it.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Didn't read bush's posts... instead, I will (once again) refer to the comments made by the NBA Commissioner, the NBA VP of Ops, and a boatload of "current" and former players and coaches when they confirmed how weak / soft today's Defense is (relative to the 90's - 00's) and how the rules in place today heavily favor the Offense... especially a player like LeFraud, who this past season took more than half his shots from within 10 feet of the basket in a Modern Era almost completely void of rim/paint defenders/protectors.

Nothing more needs to be said, really... unless you think you know more about the game than the aforementioned experts... in which case you're still entitled to your opinion, even if it makes you look foolish.

Funny, but when I burried you on this before, you turned tail.

And you DEFINITELY read Bush's post and you just don't have a clue how to argue against it.

You're a legend in your own mind... but you are still wrong. The league itself exposed its own product. Period. Case-closed.

Run along now.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Didn't read bush's posts... instead, I will (once again) refer to the comments made by the NBA Commissioner, the NBA VP of Ops, and a boatload of "current" and former players and coaches when they confirmed how weak / soft today's Defense is (relative to the 90's - 00's) and how the rules in place today heavily favor the Offense... especially a player like LeFraud, who this past season took more than half his shots from within 10 feet of the basket in a Modern Era almost completely void of rim/paint defenders/protectors.

Nothing more needs to be said, really... unless you think you know more about the game than the aforementioned experts... in which case you're still entitled to your opinion, even if it makes you look foolish.

Funny, but when I burried you on this before, you turned tail.

And you DEFINITELY read Bush's post and you just don't have a clue how to argue against it.

You're a legend in your own mind... but you are still wrong. The league itself exposed its own product. Period. Case-closed.

Run along now.

All you got is the same lame appeal to authority logical fallacy. It's worn out dude. You can't make an argument yourself. You just babble and regurgitate. You have no data, no personal experience (you haven't watched in forever) and all you do is flap your gums meaninglessly. You're boring dude.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Funny, but when I burried you on this before, you turned tail.

And you DEFINITELY read Bush's post and you just don't have a clue how to argue against it.

You're a legend in your own mind... but you are still wrong. The league itself exposed its own product. Period. Case-closed.

Run along now.

All you got is the same lame appeal to authority logical fallacy. It's worn out dude. You can't make an argument yourself. You just babble and regurgitate. You have no data, no personal experience (you haven't watched in forever) and all you do is flap your gums meaninglessly. You're boring dude.

When the league itself exposes its own product, no other data is needed meatball.



You're wrong. Be a man, accept defeat, and move on.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

You're a legend in your own mind... but you are still wrong. The league itself exposed its own product. Period. Case-closed.

Run along now.

All you got is the same lame appeal to authority logical fallacy. It's worn out dude. You can't make an argument yourself. You just babble and regurgitate. You have no data, no personal experience (you haven't watched in forever) and all you do is flap your gums meaninglessly. You're boring dude.

When the league itself exposes its own product, no other data is needed meatball.



You're wrong. Be a man, accept defeat, and move on.

The league has done no such thing. Your interpretation of those words does not make that fact. It also was taken out of context, and also completely wrong. There have been no meaningful rule changes in the last 20 years. There was a period of stricter hand check enforcement from 2oo5-06 for a few seasons that has long gone out the window. You would know that, if you actually watched and as a few other posters have pointed out already in this thread.

Your problem is your ego has a vested interest in the 90s and the Chicago Bulls. That has been pointed out to you by tons of posters, but you have the self awareness of a turnip, so it doesn't register with you.

I approach virtually everything in life on the basis of data and logic. I have been forced to think that way by the business I am in, and that is also my natural proclivity. Your approach to thinking hasn't changed since you were a teenager. You have a mindset, and it doesn't matter if the data and evidence changes, you just disregard anything that conflicts with your preconceived mindset.

There is a lot of data to look at in this debate. You haven't brought up anything that involves data, because it all contradicts your preconceived mindset. And you have the gall to pretend to have this knowledge base when you don't even look at the issue you are debating. In my business, I would refer to you as an "empty suit".

EDIT: I don't think we can get my takes on the league in 2006-2008 or so on this forum because it was all on predecessor forums. At the time, I clearly said that a guy like MJ would have FEASTED (pre second 3 peat MJ who was uber athletic). He was a better version of Wade who obviously feasted for a few seasons in that environment. Since then however, the game and that data have changed. The interpretation of handcheck is NOTHING like it was in 2006, fouls in the post are called much more evenly than they were in 2006 when it took a mugging to get a call, the 3 point shot has become MUCH more important for spacing reasons and guys like Iverson and Wade with questionable 3 point shooting ability would be far less successful today. They wouldn't get nearly as many calls at the hoop, would get defended much more aggressively, and their inability to hit the 3 consistently would be a much bigger negative. That is all supported by eye test and data. As data and evidence change, opinions should follow if you have a logical mind.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

By the way, Bush posted a few very interesting posts about how others in "this era" have aged relative to LeBron. You've been strangely quiet on that? I wonder why?