Shaq vs Jokic

[Sudanese Sensation]

Twenty years from now the play of all centers will emulate that of the Joker. It's already getting that way.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

If you were to put Doncic and Da Joker on the same team in the NBA during the 1990's they would make a joke out of the NBA. Who is going to stop the Joker, who is going to stop Doncic?

You watch hoops and aren't blinded by a "glory days" bias. Spread the gospel to your fellow boomers who are less enlightened.

LOL. I still have my bias.

We all have biases. The ability to recognize them is what matters.

[Da Stars.]

You watch hoops and aren't blinded by a "glory days" bias. Spread the gospel to your fellow boomers who are less enlightened.

LOL. I still have my bias.

We all have biases. The ability to recognize them is what matters.

Da Hell with Orr and Russell.

[Alex_Murphy]

LOL. I still have my bias.

We all have biases. The ability to recognize them is what matters.

Da Hell with Orr and Russell.

[Bush4Ever.]

Twenty years from now the play of all centers will emulate that of the Joker. It's already getting that way.

On some level, I can understand the feelings about aesthetics some fans make about today's game being "boring to watch" because "every team plays similarly". Even if that is an overly broad stroke, I can understand it. The idea of there being a Goldilocks "just right" combination of inner-out vs. outer-in/3s+layups goal vs. all spots on floor goal, etc...

That can happen when a game has been min-maxed and optimized...everyone sort of sprints towards that optimization and you get a bunch of teams largely cloning in each other in style, at least in terms of goals.

It's happening in MMA a fair amount and will probably happen even more once a generation or two of guys who only trained MMA (instead of the individual component arts) have filtered through. In terms of pure entertainment, I actually prefer the era (maybe 2008-2013ish) where there were more individual styles and unique skillsets, while still possessing good (but not as high as today) skill. So if I have a moment to watch a fight and nothing good is on-deck, I'll usually pop in something from that era.

But that's a different thing than saying athletes are less good or less skilled or lowering performing.

[Alex_Murphy]

This thread is as retarded as comparing prime Kevin Martin to Michael Jordan just cuz of “muh stats”

[Havlicekstealsit]

Twenty years from now the play of all centers will emulate that of the Joker. It's already getting that way.

I'd be interested to see the evolution of how it transpires. I believe after the all star break this year teams started to score less and maybe that was because the spacing changed some? But I doubt we go back to the constant post-up entry pass/backing down defender forever era of the 80s & 90s. Big men were the ones who mostly had to alter their game over wings.

[Alex_Murphy]

Shaq never lost to the Timberwolves by 40.

[wailuaFC]

Twenty years from now the play of all centers will emulate that of the Joker. It's already getting that way.

I'd be interested to see the evolution of how it transpires. I believe after the all star break this year teams started to score less and maybe that was because the spacing changed some? But I doubt we go back to the constant post-up entry pass/backing down defender forever era of the 80s & 90s. Big men were the ones who mostly had to alter their game over wings.

It wasn’t the spacing, it was the refs not calling fouls. Ben Taylor did a podcast about it, refs absolutely stopped calling everything in the second half of the season and it really affected offenses. Less fouls called than in the hand checking era. We’ve seen it play out with how the Knicks and wolves play defense, they’re getting arms and bodies onto ball handlers with no whistles

[thedangerouskitchen]

Why the hell wouldn't Joker play from the elbow or the 3 point line you retard? Because you said so? He can play from wherever the hell he wants. He'd be like Sam Perkins in that sense, except stratospherically better. Fuck you're stupid.

Because Centers weren't playing 15-20+ feet from the basket back in the 90's-00's, meatball... that's like asking, why wouldn't Steph Curry be standing 25 feet from the basket chuckin' 3's all game long if he played during your Glory Days of the 50's/60's?



I mean, isn't that why you/others drool over those "advanced metrics/stats"... as they're "supposed to" provide a credible means of comparing players across different eras BECAUSE the game/rules/styles vary so much from era to era?

Or wait a second, hold on... you're not under the impression that Joker would be playing C in the 90's/00's under today's rules / style, while the rest of the NBA would adhere to the rules/style that actually existed in the 90's/00's... are you?



Gosh I hope not 'cause then you'd be a fool.

Today's Joker playing in the 90's-00's would have to contend with a much slower Pace and far fewer Possessions (leading to lower stat totals all-around), much less floor Spacing / faaaar fewer 3 point shooting (making it harder to Facilitate from the elbow), much more Physicality and pounding/wear-tear on his body (something he doesn't experience in today's free-flowing, zero contact era), and he would be forced to actually defend every possession (which hardly any player does today).

In short Joker would be so far out of his element that he might have ended up staying in the Euroleague if he came up in the 90's-00's. What's most likely though is what I wrote earlier: Jokic in the 90's-00's would be a slightly better version of what Arvydas Sabonis might have looked like if he played his prime years in the NBA.

That's still a legit HOF caliber player, but not on Shaq's level of domination. Not even close.

Are we supposed to pretend Jokic doesn't have the skills he's got? Fuck you're stupid. He can play from anywhere because he can. Shaq didn't because he couldn't. Ewing tried to play further away and hit jumpers, but his range was nowhere near Jokic's and he had nowhere near Jokic's post game.

Laimbeer used to play way away from the bucket on the offensive end for chrissakes. I thought you watched hoops back then. He was taking 20 foot jumpers though because that was the extent of his range.

Jokic, with his skill set, would have completely obliterated the 90s. He would have been an even bigger unicorn than he is now.

I doubt you've ever picked up a basketball and played an organized game. You just don't understand the game.

Joker's "skills" are great, no question about it; however the Number One reason why he's so Effective today is because it's never been easier to run Offense given the free-flowing, fast-paced, soft/weak Defense... which, if you listen to the NBA's very own Commissioner, was 100% by design.

That's right, meatball... the league made today's game easier to Facilitate, easier to grab Rebounds, and easier to Score ON PURPOSE, so that star players with great Offensive "skills" can actually showcase those skills to their maximum potential... like an All Star game.



Commissioner Silver: “It (physical Defense of the 90's) de-emphasized the particular skill a player had and maybe weighed too heavily on physicality, where a big, strong player could come in and prevent an incredibly skilled player from doing those kinds of things. “I think of — not that he’s a small guy — but a smaller player like Steph Curry, (what he) can do on the floor. I think that when you think of some of his ability to shoot, his ability to move through the paint, that if guys could just bang him and knock him to the ground — as that was once the case in the league ~ I don’t think that would be a better brand of basketball. I know when I sit in the stands, or talk to friends sometimes, they want to bring back — and we’ve tried to bring back a little bit more of the physicality. Like, I think people like to see hard defense."

Translation: Hard Defense makes it harder to execute Offensively... and this wouldn't just apply to Joker (in the 90's-00's) but ALSO his less "skilled" teammates, meaning harder for them as well (which in turn would impact Joker's ability to Facilitate/generate Assists, among other intangibles).

It's funny how you claim Russell is the GOAT "because of" his Defensive Impact YET you refuse to address the LACK of Defensive impact on the game today, which undoubtedly plays right into the hands of "skilled" Offensive players (like Joker, Curry, LeFraud, etc).

but yeah, we know meatball... Bill Russell is the only player in the history of the league who made an impact on Defense.



Bottom Line: 90's-00's Joker would be playing a much slower Paced game, with far fewer FGA/Possessions to work with (from the mid 90's forward, anyway), much more Physicality on Defense (and the game in general), and a lack of Spacing relative to the free flowing, fast-paced, wide-open NBA of today with its soft/no contact Defense.

20/10/5 is a very fair and realistic projection for what today's Joker would average (if he played in the 90's-00's). In short, Shaq would dominate him.

Now... let's discuss why these facts upset you.

[Bush4Ever.]

First of all, Joker played on an exceptionally slow paced team in 2024. The Nuggets have never been a fast team since Joker has emerged as an MVP-level player.

Beyond that though, Joker wouldn't be playing with fewer possessions because he would be playing more minutes a game sufficient to offset whatever slower pace might have taken place.

In 2000, Shaq played 83.3 percent of all possible minutes on a team with a pace of 93.3 (average for the time), for a total of 77.7 possessions.

In 2024, Joker played 72.1 percent of all possible minutes on a team with a pace of 96.8 (slow for the time) for a total of 69.8 possessions.

You can't confuse pace of the NBA average with pace of a specific team, and you definitely can't divorce minutes played from the equation if you are talking about accumulating volume statistics.

[thedangerouskitchen]

First of all, Joker played on an exceptionally slow paced team in 2024. The Nuggets have never been a fast team since Joker has emerged as an MVP-level player.

Beyond that though, Joker wouldn't be playing with fewer possessions because he would be playing more minutes a game sufficient to offset whatever slower pace might have taken place.

In 2000, Shaq played 83.3 percent of all possible minutes on a team with a pace of 93.3 (average for the time), for a total of 77.7 possessions.

In 2024, Joker played 72.1 percent of all possible minutes on a team with a pace of 96.8 (slow for the time) for a total of 69.8 possessions.

You can't confuse pace of the NBA average with pace of a specific team, and you definitely can't divorce minutes played from the equation if you are talking about accumulating volume statistics.

Well those "exceptionally slow-paced" Nuggets were still much faster than the Pace of the league from the mid 1990's - 00's

Nuggets' Pace last 4 seasons = 97-98
NBA Pace average (1995-10) = 89-93

...and FWIW:

Nuggets' FGA/g last 4 seasons = 86-89
League average 1995-10 = 78-82

That said, you have no idea a) how many more Minutes per game Joker would/wouldn't play in the 90's-00's (he's averaged 34 a game the past 4 seasons), which means b) you canNot possibly presume to know whether or not those extra minutes would yield enough additional production to offset the slower Pace/fewer FGA.

In other words you're just guessing with a bias favoring Joker... I provided unbiased facts.

...and notice we still haven't factored in Defense and Physicality, which would certainly impact Joker's effectiveness as well (unless you're like grizz and you believe Bill Russell was the only player in history to impact the game Defensively)?



Otherwise I'd say 20/10/5 seems like very reasonable production for Joker, if he played in the 90's-00's.

[Bush4Ever.]

There's been a downward trend in minutes played per game for a number of years now, especially amongst star players.

It's not an opinion. It's an objective fact.

Joker has played 34-35 minutes a game since 2021.

Shaq played 36-40 minutes a game during the threepeat

D-Rob played 36-41 minutes a game during his MVP season+adjacents

Hakeem played 39-41 minutes a game during his title seasons+adjacents

You don't have to guess at any of this.

Why the F do you think Joker almost always has higher numbers per-possession, but the same volume in counting statistics per-game?

5th grade math level anyone?

lol

[Bush4Ever.]

"Peak Joker would be a slightly better scorer and the same rebounder as the Orlando Magic version of Rony Seikaly (17 and 10 output/game)"

-TDK

[thedangerouskitchen]

There's been a downward trend in minutes played per game for a number of years now, especially amongst star players.

It's not an opinion. It's an objective fact.

Joker has played 34-35 minutes a game since 2021.

Shaq played 36-40 minutes a game during the threepeat

D-Rob played 36-41 minutes a game during his MVP season+adjacents

Hakeem played 39-41 minutes a game during his title seasons+adjacents

You don't have to guess at any of this.

Why the F do you think Joker almost always has higher numbers per-possession, but the same volume in counting statistics per-game?

5th grade math level anyone?

lol

Sorry but there is NO fact in you "guessing" that Joker would play more minutes (and if he did, how many more), and it's clearly NOT a fact to blindly claim that the additional production (from those few extra Minutes Joker "might" play) would offset the slower Pace, fewer FGA, and much tougher Defense he'd be up against in the 90's - 00's.

Hell the physicality of that era ALONE might just prove too much for Joker, and result in him playing even fewer minutes than he does now... nevermind the extra energy/wear-tear he would be forced to endure from having to actually put forth a consistent effort on Defense every night. Who knows, maybe that leads to a career-ending injury, or causes him to miss large chunks of the season, as there would be no load management, rest days and 9 day All-Star breaks like we have today.

See... I can guess too.

[Robceltsfan]

There's been a downward trend in minutes played per game for a number of years now, especially amongst star players.

It's not an opinion. It's an objective fact.

Joker has played 34-35 minutes a game since 2021.

Shaq played 36-40 minutes a game during the threepeat

D-Rob played 36-41 minutes a game during his MVP season+adjacents

Hakeem played 39-41 minutes a game during his title seasons+adjacents

You don't have to guess at any of this.

Why the F do you think Joker almost always has higher numbers per-possession, but the same volume in counting statistics per-game?

5th grade math level anyone?

lol

Sorry but there is NO fact in you "guessing" that Joker would play more minutes (and if he did, how many more), and it's clearly NOT a fact to blindly claim that the additional production (from those few extra Minutes Joker "might" play) would offset the slower Pace, fewer FGA, and much tougher Defense he'd be up against in the 90's - 00's.

Hell the physicality of that era ALONE might just prove too much for Joker, and result in him playing even fewer minutes than he does now... nevermind the extra energy/wear-tear he would be forced to endure from having to actually put forth a consistent effort on Defense every night. Who knows, maybe that leads to a career-ending injury, or causes him to miss large chunks of the season, as there would be no load management, rest days and 9 day All-Star breaks like we have today.

See... I can guess too.

Except your guess is based in fantasy and conjecture......his guess is based in factual likelihood.

[Bush4Ever.]

It's Friday TDK.

Don't worry about this stuff. Just enjoy the evening/night with your gal pal.

[thedangerouskitchen]

There's been a downward trend in minutes played per game for a number of years now, especially amongst star players.

It's not an opinion. It's an objective fact.

Joker has played 34-35 minutes a game since 2021.

Shaq played 36-40 minutes a game during the threepeat

D-Rob played 36-41 minutes a game during his MVP season+adjacents

Hakeem played 39-41 minutes a game during his title seasons+adjacents

You don't have to guess at any of this.

Why the F do you think Joker almost always has higher numbers per-possession, but the same volume in counting statistics per-game?

5th grade math level anyone?

lol

Sorry but there is NO fact in you "guessing" that Joker would play more minutes (and if he did, how many more), and it's clearly NOT a fact to blindly claim that the additional production (from those few extra Minutes Joker "might" play) would offset the slower Pace, fewer FGA, and much tougher Defense he'd be up against in the 90's - 00's.

Hell the physicality of that era ALONE might just prove too much for Joker, and result in him playing even fewer minutes than he does now... nevermind the extra energy/wear-tear he would be forced to endure from having to actually put forth a consistent effort on Defense every night. Who knows, maybe that leads to a career-ending injury, or causes him to miss large chunks of the season, as there would be no load management, rest days and 9 day All-Star breaks like we have today.

See... I can guess too.

Except your guess is based in fantasy and conjecture......his guess is based in factual likelihood.

So it's "fantasy and conjecture" to speculate that a guy who plays in a zero-contact era his entire career might suffer injuries if he were suddenly transplated into a Era that was vastly more physical??

I don't think so, no... my guess is just as likely to happen as bush's guesses.

Prove me wrong.

[thedangerouskitchen]

It's Friday TDK.

Don't worry about this stuff. Just enjoy the evening/night with your gal pal.

This board is an escape from the everyday challenges of life... "worry" is the last thing I do here.