Discuss this shot data (07-08 through 12-13)

[thedangerouskitchen]

Today's defenses are much better.

Zone defenses hamper post play and force teams to take long jumpers.

Lack of elite post skills force "certain" teams/players to take long jumpers....they have been playing zone legally or illegally since MJ's days. It's NEVER been easier for ball handling wings to get to the rim due to the rule changes(def 3 secs etc...) and lack of real big men guarding it.

Exactly...

Nowadays the lane parts like the Red Sea when slashers drive to the basket. I've seen defenders, literally, just step aside and allow the slasher to score an easy basket without so much as brushing jerseys with them.

Hell, even Van Gundy brought this up the other day during the Heat / Knicks game.

[Da Stars.]

This zone defense reason is the biggest piece of crock excuse I have ever read. If Zone was so good. Why do NBA teams play it the whole game? Maybe TDK can answer this.

[Repeat3peat]

Today's defenses are much better.

Zone defenses hamper post play and force teams to take long jumpers.

Lack of elite post skills force "certain" teams/players to take long jumpers....they have been playing zone legally or illegally since MJ's days. It's NEVER been easier for ball handling wings to get to the rim due to the rule changes(def 3 secs etc...) and lack of real big men guarding it.

Exactly...

Nowadays the lane parts like the Red Sea when slashers drive to the basket. I've seen defenders, literally, just step aside and allow the slasher to score an easy basket without so much as brushing jerseys with them.

Hell, even Van Gundy brought this up the other day during the Heat / Knicks game.

Even KOBE brought this up.

[thedangerouskitchen]

This zone defense reason is the biggest piece of crock excuse I have ever read. If Zone was so good. Why do NBA teams play it the whole game? Maybe TDK can answer this.

Got me... great question though.

ZombieSonics is the guy slurpin' the Zone, so perhaps he ought to chime in.

[Deez]

Why do people think zone is so damn tough? Please explain. As a wing player all my life I fricken loved when teams played zone against us. I would light them up

[Da Stars.]

This zone defense reason is the biggest piece of crock excuse I have ever read. If Zone was so good. Why do NBA teams play it the whole game? Maybe TDK can answer this.

Got me... great question though.

ZombieSonics is the guy slurpin' the Zone, so perhaps he ought to chime in.

Could have something to do with dribble penetration. Ball movement. < ball reversal. the extra pass.> Most of all lack of rebounding. Pros can actually break down a zone. Wonder what I missed.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Today's defenses are much better.

Zone defenses hamper post play and force teams to take long jumpers.

Lack of elite post skills force "certain" teams/players to take long jumpers....they have been playing zone legally or illegally since MJ's days. It's NEVER been easier for ball handling wings to get to the rim due to the rule changes(def 3 secs etc...) and lack of real big men guarding it.

Exactly...

Nowadays the lane parts like the Red Sea when slashers drive to the basket. I've seen defenders, literally, just step aside and allow the slasher to score an easy basket without so much as brushing jerseys with them.

Hell, even Van Gundy brought this up the other day during the Heat / Knicks game.

I used to subscribe to this view and I think it was pretty accurate the first few years when the no handcheck rules were rigorously enforced in 2006. That probably was the case for about 4-5 seasons. It isn't the case anymore. Defenses have adjusted a great deal and the freeway to the hole has been reduced dramatically. In part, it's also due to the officials not being quite so strict in the enforcement of the handcheck. What was a foul in 2006 is "sometimes" called now, but not to the same extent.

Overall, I still think it is a more friendly environment for quick guards than it was in the 90s and I think a guy like MJ would have shredded the league in a ridiculous fashion for several years after 2006, but everything is cyclical, and defenses have caught up and enforcement of rules have changed to make it less easy to just slash to the hole in the way it was in 2006 when it was goofy how far the pendulum had swung in the favor of slashers.

As far as post talent is concerned, I think a lot of that is rules as well. It used to be that fouls on the perimeter and fouls in the paint were called pretty equally. Now there are absolute muggings that go in the post that are never called relative to what is called on slashers. A guy like Adrian Dantley who made a living on the FT line as a post playing SF would barely be a threat in today's NBA. He would not be half as effective as he was when he actually played.

[FPL]

This zone defense reason is the biggest piece of crock excuse I have ever read. If Zone was so good. Why do NBA teams play it the whole game? Maybe TDK can answer this.

Got me... great question though.

ZombieSonics is the guy slurpin' the Zone, so perhaps he ought to chime in.

Generally it leaves you open to the three if they put a lineup with 3 or more shooters out there. So a straight 2-3 zone (which is typically employed to stop the drive) won't work. There have been a lot of hybrid zones in recent years, though.

You need quick defenders outside and a dominant paint protector anchoring your defense on the inside for this to work. Quick perimeter defenders also help take the transition game away.

This almost worked in the Finals last year.

[AbeVigodaLive]

TDK seems misguided in this thread... As l3bron pointed out.

Pretty funny stuff. Maybe that kind of posting is what gets him all that attention?

[Repeat3peat]

TDK seems misguided in this thread... As l3bron pointed out.

Pretty funny stuff. Maybe that kind of posting is what gets him all that attention?

Try again.

[l3bron]

I am of the opinion that the mid 80's - mid 90's was THE best / most competitive / toughest "era" if you will... the late 90's still has some spillover from that era, but by the 00's (through the present) the NBA has gotten progressively worse.

Also... 3 pointers are among the most "efficient" shots????

Are you nuts???

Today's Offenses stink... the numbers in the OP clearly show this.

http://grantland.com/features/the-relia ... rting-nba/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The efficiency of the 3-point shot has been known for awhile.

Nevada Smith, coach of the most innovative pro basketball team you’ve never seen, says almost all the criticism he hears about his chosen strategy comes from older fans and scouts.

“It’s mostly those old-school basketball guys,” says Smith, coach of the D-League’s Rio Grande Valley Vipers

Today's Offenses stink... the numbers in the OP clearly show this.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=239585" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah no. TS% (the best barometer for scoring efficiency) clearly shows that today's offenses are more efficient than ANY year from the 90's aside from 1995-1996. Want to know something cool? Those were also the years the 3 point line was shortened.

lol... 3-point shooting may be considered "efficient" nowadays, but only because today's players suck at mid-range shooting and post play. Also, TS% is a terrible stat to use because 3-point shooting wasn't really a part of the game until the late 90's.

It's efficient if you have an elementary understanding of numbers.

No, TS% isn't a terrible stat to use. The fact that today's league has adopted the 3 point shot as a critical element of their gameplans IS THE POINT I'M MAKING. You've basically summed it up with your last post. "Teams of the 90's aren't as efficient as teams of today's because they didn't shoot as many 3 pointers, so it's unfair to use an accurate statistic that measures efficiency."

[l3bron]

This zone defense reason is the biggest piece of crock excuse I have ever read. If Zone was so good. Why do NBA teams play it the whole game? Maybe TDK can answer this.

Got me... great question though.

ZombieSonics is the guy slurpin' the Zone, so perhaps he ought to chime in.

Generally it leaves you open to the three if they put a lineup with 3 or more shooters out there. So a straight 2-3 zone (which is typically employed to stop the drive) won't work. There have been a lot of hybrid zones in recent years, though.

You need quick defenders outside and a dominant paint protector anchoring your defense on the inside for this to work. Quick perimeter defenders also help take the transition game away.

This almost worked in the Finals last year.

Dallas used a hybrid zone in the 2011 Finals as well.

What TDK and the other basketball guru don't understand is that a team doesn't need to go fully into a zone every possession to benefit from the allowing of it. Many teams play a defense a in between zone and man.

[Y2K]

Got me... great question though.

ZombieSonics is the guy slurpin' the Zone, so perhaps he ought to chime in.

Generally it leaves you open to the three if they put a lineup with 3 or more shooters out there. So a straight 2-3 zone (which is typically employed to stop the drive) won't work. There have been a lot of hybrid zones in recent years, though.

You need quick defenders outside and a dominant paint protector anchoring your defense on the inside for this to work. Quick perimeter defenders also help take the transition game away.

This almost worked in the Finals last year.

Dallas used a hybrid zone in the 2011 Finals as well.

What TDK and the other basketball guru don't understand is that a team doesn't need to go fully into a zone every possession to benefit from the allowing of it. Many teams play a defense a in between zone and man.

Just about every zone defense that's played in the NBA is a hybrid. You'll be hard pressed to find a true zone.... especially with the defensive 3 sec rule.

[AbeVigodaLive]

TDK seems misguided in this thread... As l3bron pointed out.

Pretty funny stuff. Maybe that kind of posting is what gets him all that attention?

Try again.

His first post in this thread was ridiculous, based on conjecture with no correlation to the stats he tried to piggyback. More long-range shots and near-basket shots results from more isolations?

What?

That's pretty fucking terrible analysis, if that was his intent... I'm not sure it was.

[lettherebehouse]

Code: Select all

                      %sample  FG%     eFG%    PPS
TRANSITION/FINISHING  19.6%    0.655   0.655   1.39
CUTS/DRIVES            9.0%    0.542   0.542   1.22
CORNER 3               6.5%    0.388   0.581   1.16
PUTBACK                4.0%    0.534   0.534   1.14
NON-CORNER 3          16.8%    0.340   0.510   1.02
MIDRANGE               8.8%    0.410   0.410   0.87
POST                   9.1%    0.396   0.396   0.84
LONG 2                26.3%    0.394   0.394   0.79

All this does is tell me that as defenses has evolved, so has the athletes, and their athletic ability. Sophisticated schemes and hybrid zones aimed at taking away the once popular and efficient mid range and flash drives to the cup, coupled with athletic & long defenders who can be used now with far more flexibility than the common 80s player, is a recipe conducive toward pulling forwards further from the basket to "settle" for the more efficient shot in half court sets. Efficiency, as in this case, isn't predicated on range from basket, but rather the amount of real estate allotted to the suffocated scorer within a reasonable range, which includes obviously the corner 3, and long 2.

Offensive prowess in any sport in it's respective histories have always been based on what the opposition is willing to take away, and what they give. Today's NBA, the same theory applies. These are the only shots given to them, which to an evolving offense's credit, is adapting concurrently to these schematic shifts as today's offensive player in general is far more well rounded than they've ever been. It's the reason why from top to bottom around the league today, the overall talent on both sides of the ball is at it's richest in league history, and it really isn't even close.

[Buckets]

Drives, layups, and putbacks all result in at least 20% higher made baskets - imagine that. But keep jacking up those long twos and threes. Tuffest era evar.

Look at the effective FG% (which adds value to 3s as they are 1 point more)...besides a transition/layup (which is obviously the best type of shot), 3 pointer's beat out post-ups and midrange shots. So yes, they will keep jacking up those 3s.

[AlaskaHawks]

Good info and discussion, Fpliii. I will try and contribute later.