70% of Millennials likely to support Socialism YET don't even know what Socialism is...

[Y2K]

To be fair, (socialist) USSR and Maoist China were generally devoid of evil and essentially devoid of capitalism on a meaningful scale, so there could be something to that theory.

In reality, the activities within a capitalist market are not synonymous with moral and virtuous behavior. Like in the example I used earlier, a crack hoe selling her body for money is completely consistent with capitalism (assuming no fraud takes place). So is making a voluntary donation to some sort of social justice cause. So is banking your money. So is buying a double-sided dildo and using it with your homosexual partner (assuming adults and consent blah blah blah) while you smoke dank weed you bought from the corner.

Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange. A fully capitalist market is a market where 100 percent of economic exchanges are voluntary.

Obviously, all economies are mixed to a non-zero extent. It simply is a matter of degree.

My guy, you are confusing capitalism with commerce. Commerce is voluntary exchange. Capitalism happens to be a form of commerce.

[Bush4Ever.]

My guy, you are confusing capitalism with commerce. Commerce is voluntary exchange. Capitalism happens to be a form of commerce.

No, I'm not.

https://mises.org/library/capitalism-versus-statism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Free-market capitalism is a network of free and voluntary exchanges in which producers work, produce, and exchange their products for the products of others through prices voluntarily arrived at.

The easiest way to understand if X deviates from capitalism is understanding the degree to which X came about through non-voluntary means through a causal chain of events.

Edit: On a purely personal front, back before I understood the majesty of Donald Trump and discovered (sincerely) that he is 100 percent right about everything, my political (but non-social) beliefs were essentially "Voluntaryism". To that end, if people want to form a group and make a hippie commune and set up the economy on the land in some sort of turbo-collectivist manner, I'm not using force/aggression to stop them, provided they aren't using force/aggression to bring people into the group or to keep people from leaving, etc...

I might think it's dumb, bad economics, not the most optimal path, or at least not for me, but as long as it's voluntary...do your thing.

[Y2K]

My guy, you are confusing capitalism with commerce. Commerce is voluntary exchange. Capitalism happens to be a form of commerce.

No, I'm not.

https://mises.org/library/capitalism-versus-statism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Free-market capitalism is a network of free and voluntary exchanges in which producers work, produce, and exchange their products for the products of others through prices voluntarily arrived at.

The easiest way to understand if X deviates from capitalism is understanding the degree to which X came about through non-voluntary means through a causal chain of events.

Edit: On a purely personal front, back before I understood the majesty of Donald Trump and discovered (sincerely) that he is 100 percent right about everything, my political (but non-social) beliefs were essentially "Voluntaryism". To that end, if people want to form a group and make a hippie commune and set up the economy on the land in some sort of turbo-communist manner, I'm not using force/aggression to stop them, provided they aren't using force/aggression to bring people into the group or to keep people from leaving, etc...

I might think it's dumb, bad economics, not the most optimal path, or at least not for me, but as long as it's voluntary...do your thing.

When you say, "Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange," that's technically not accurate. What you just described is literally the concept of commerce. Free-market Capitalism is just a form of that, one that you went further into detail on.

[americaninfidel]

My guy, you are confusing capitalism with commerce. Commerce is voluntary exchange. Capitalism happens to be a form of commerce.

No, I'm not.

https://mises.org/library/capitalism-versus-statism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Free-market capitalism is a network of free and voluntary exchanges in which producers work, produce, and exchange their products for the products of others through prices voluntarily arrived at.

The easiest way to understand if X deviates from capitalism is understanding the degree to which X came about through non-voluntary means through a causal chain of events.

Edit: On a purely personal front, back before I understood the majesty of Donald Trump and discovered (sincerely) that he is 100 percent right about everything, my political (but non-social) beliefs were essentially "Voluntaryism". To that end, if people want to form a group and make a hippie commune and set up the economy on the land in some sort of turbo-communist manner, I'm not using force/aggression to stop them, provided they aren't using force/aggression to bring people into the group or to keep people from leaving, etc...

I might think it's dumb, bad economics, not the most optimal path, or at least not for me, but as long as it's voluntary...do your thing.

When you say, "Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange," that's technically not accurate. What you just described is literally the concept of commerce. Free-market Capitalism is just a form of that, one that you went further into detail on.

Man, an actual discussion with merit, and on a Saturday evening. AND in a thread started by TDK?

Mind blowing.

[Bush4Ever.]

post

Sure thing.

Can you explain to me how "Communist" (Socialist in reality) governments sending at least 100 million people to the grave is consistent with the idea that capitalism is the root of all evil?

Do you think murdering 100 million people is worse than poor people receiving below-average (by modern standards, which were constantly elevated by market forces over time) health care at slightly uncomfortable rates?

[Bush4Ever.]

Man, an actual discussion with merit, and on a Saturday evening. AND in a thread started by TDK?

Mind blowing.

I engaged in capitalism today. I went shopping because my wife is slightly ill.

I paid approximately 140 dollars for a variety of produce, proteins, and random non-food necessities.

I say to you brother, I felt the evil growing inside me when I did . It's a beast waiting to burst out.

Will I kill someone? Cheat on my wife? Abuse my children?

Withdraw the money I donate to charity and stop volunteering (post-Covid) at our local soup kitchen?

Who knows man. The battle with the beast is real.

[Y2K]

post

Sure thing.

Can you explain to me how "Communist" (Socialist in reality) governments sending at least 100 million people to the grave is consistent with the idea that capitalism is the root of all evil?

Do you think murdering 100 million people is worse than poor people receiving below-average (by modern standards, which were constantly elevated by market forces over time) health care at slightly uncomfortable rates?

Socialism doesn't promote murdering people man. Kinda like capitalism not being responsible for a brutal dictator who murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people WHILE receiving hundreds of millions of dollars in aid from the United States government.

[Y2K]

No, I'm not.

https://mises.org/library/capitalism-versus-statism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Free-market capitalism is a network of free and voluntary exchanges in which producers work, produce, and exchange their products for the products of others through prices voluntarily arrived at.

The easiest way to understand if X deviates from capitalism is understanding the degree to which X came about through non-voluntary means through a causal chain of events.

Edit: On a purely personal front, back before I understood the majesty of Donald Trump and discovered (sincerely) that he is 100 percent right about everything, my political (but non-social) beliefs were essentially "Voluntaryism". To that end, if people want to form a group and make a hippie commune and set up the economy on the land in some sort of turbo-communist manner, I'm not using force/aggression to stop them, provided they aren't using force/aggression to bring people into the group or to keep people from leaving, etc...

I might think it's dumb, bad economics, not the most optimal path, or at least not for me, but as long as it's voluntary...do your thing.

When you say, "Capitalism is simply voluntary exchange," that's technically not accurate. What you just described is literally the concept of commerce. Free-market Capitalism is just a form of that, one that you went further into detail on.

Man, an actual discussion with merit, and on a Saturday evening. AND in a thread started by TDK?

Mind blowing.

I've always believed that everyone is good for something. I guess TDK didn't let us down this time.

[Bush4Ever.]

Socialism doesn't promote murdering people man.

Agreed. It was all a big coincidence.

Venezuela (a resource-rich nation for it's size) moving from relative wealth to destitution is a coincidence.

The Holodomor was a coincidence.

The Great Leap Forward (30ish million deaths) was a coincidence.

Soviets risking death to scale the Berlin Wall into the "nasty icky gross" (mostly) capitalist countries while the Soviet government had to use machine guns to prevent it's own people from fleeing is all a coincidence. The fact it virtually never ran the other way (Americans or countries outside the Soviet Bloc attempting to get into Soviet Union) is also a coincidence.

No causal connections between these things. Not even the famines that resulted almost entirely from massive resource misallocation (hey that price system thing is neccessary after all...who woulda thunk' it!) over a period of years or even decades.

All a coincidence. All random.

Humanity growing and improving in quality-of-life at an extremely rapid rate since capitalism became a more consistent economic system is also a (several hundred year) coincidence.

Crazy stuff.

Spoiler:

The people who vote for socialism over capitalism at this point in human history virtually always fall into at least one bucket:

1. Ignorant of history/evidence
2. Linking socialism with the concept of "caring about people", as if there is any meaningful type of equivalence between those ideas.
3. Life losers who can't rise in competitive environments, and believe that under a socialist system, their stock relative to other people will increase
4. Belief that the "wrong types" of people have "too much", and their tribes have too little.

For some reason, these people usually scream their heads off at the idea of a peaceful divorce and the two (or more) factions simply going their own separate ways and doing a real life experiment of their theories. I wonder why that is.

[Kevin]

Why is Bush ok with Americans paying many times over what other civilized countries pay for health care? (And don’t give me those bullshit right wing lies about wait times or inability to choose doctors, etc). I want real answers. Why should human health care be a for profit industry?

[elartman1973]

Lol at thinking that healthcare is a privilage

[elartman1973]

The republican idiots likely are fans of Che Guevara....which shows complete ignorance

[elartman1973]

The republican idiots likely are fans of Che Guevara....which shows complete ignorance

Ya ok.

You don't even know why you shouldn't praise him probobly....most Americans don't have a clue

[elartman1973]

Ya ok.

You don't even know why you shouldn't praise him probobly....most Americans don't have a clue

Keep going.

I'm not here to educate you...I'm well aware of who he was and what he did ...surprised you anti gay racists fucks don't praise him daily

[Y2K]

Socialism doesn't promote murdering people man.

Agreed. It was all a big coincidence.

Venezuela (a resource-rich nation for it's size) moving from relative wealth to destitution is a coincidence.

The Holodomor was a coincidence.

The Great Leap Forward (30ish million deaths) was a coincidence.

Soviets risking death to scale the Berlin Wall into the "nasty icky gross" (mostly) capitalist countries while the Soviet government had to use machine guns to prevent it's own people from fleeing is all a coincidence. The fact it virtually never ran the other way (Americans or countries outside the Soviet Bloc attempting to get into Soviet Union) is also a coincidence.

No causal connections between these things. Not even the famines that resulted almost entirely from massive resource misallocation (hey that price system thing is neccessary after all...who woulda thunk' it!) over a period of years or even decades.

All a coincidence. All random.

Humanity growing and improving in quality-of-life at an extremely rapid rate since capitalism became a more consistent economic system is also a (several hundred year) coincidence.

Crazy stuff.

Spoiler:

The people who vote for socialism over capitalism at this point in human history virtually always fall into at least one bucket:

1. Ignorant of history/evidence
2. Linking socialism with the concept of "caring about people", as if there is any meaningful type of equivalence between those ideas.
3. Life losers who can't rise in competitive environments, and believe that under a socialist system, their stock relative to other people will increase
4. Belief that the "wrong types" of people have "too much", and their tribes have too little.

For some reason, these people usually scream their heads off at the idea of a peaceful divorce and the two (or more) factions simply going their own separate ways and doing a real life experiment of their theories. I wonder why that is.

[americaninfidel]

Keep going.

I'm not here to educate you...I'm well aware of who he was and what he did ...surprised you anti gay racists fucks don't praise him daily

I can't stand gay racists. You got me there.

[americaninfidel]

The republican idiots likely are fans of Che Guevara....which shows complete ignorance

I'm sure Che is a fan favorite among Republicans.

Just how dumb are you, Arty?

[AlaskaHawks]

The republican idiots likely are fans of Che Guevara....which shows complete ignorance

I'm sure Che is a fan favorite among Republicans.

Just how dumb are you, Arty?

He's the smartest one on this board, just ask him.