Backpick all time rankings..

[Bush4Ever35]

Yes, relative vs. absolute improvement and generalizability.

My only point was that increasing odds in winning and increasing odds in winning sufficient to overcome a particular benchmark (like winning a title) aren't perfectly aligned (or even meaningfully aligned in a lot of cases), since players start from different contextual environments.

Jordan probably improved the 1992 Dream Team in the most negligible of ways, but was probably worth 18-20 regular season wins (guessing) and at least one playoff round on the 1992 Bulls team despite being the same quality of player.

[Y2K]

In that same vein, I think FPL pointed out that the author would had Magic 4th overall if he had greater longevity. I'm sure there's an element to that with Bird as well, along with some very pedestrian playofg performances.

I don't know how high he'd rate Bird, but I'm sure it would be higher if he had a more complete career. He ranks his prime years very high in that writeup. He does admittedly have an LA bias though (went to UCLA where he wrote for the paper, and covered the Lakers for the LA Times blog a few years back), so it wouldn't surprise me if he had a healthy Magic above a healthy Bird.

I would expect healthy Magic to be ranked higher than healthy Bird, regardless of the the 5-3 championship ring advantage.

It's not a secret that Bird had a debilitating back condition that hampered his availability and on-court performance in his last 2 seasons. Say that his health bounces back to start the next season...he'd have been 36 years old. How much more could we expect from him?

[Dagger]

I’d wager I have KG higher than FPL.

[PhutureDynasty]

I’d wager I have KG higher than FPL.

Where do you have him?

[Dagger]

I’d wager I have KG higher than FPL.

Where do you have him?

Well 8 might be a little high for me and I’d have to give the nod to Bird and Magic unless I thought a bit more.

I’m a huge KG homer and believer that he was criminally underrated though.

[FPL]

I’d wager I have KG higher than FPL.

Honestly I'm not sure, haven't done a list like this in a while. Keep in mind that my list is basically the order in which I'd draft players for today's league (with the goal being to contend for multiple titles). Not getting into the LeBron or Kobe stuff, but for other players typically in the conversation:

Definitely ahead - Jordan, Russell
Probably ahead - Olajuwon, Kareem (though I need to reevaluate his defense)
Toss-up - Duncan
Probably behind - Shaq (defensive concerns with pick-and-roll, and inconsistent on that end in general), Magic (see below),
Definitely behind - Oscar + West (less likely to assume non-bigs can translate to today, since there's more competition for smaller guys; pretty much all post-shot clock bigs could play today), Robinson (underrated longevity, but has playoff resiliency issues) Wilt (not in my top 10, low BBIQ player, though solid defensively), Bird (longevity issues + back), Malone (playoff issues, and Stockton helped make him, though the latter was incapable of elevating his game in the playoffs), Dirk (elite scorer, but limitations as a scorer and defensively limit his ceiling), Erving (rates poorly in +/-)

So as high as 3, as low as 8, probably in the middle.

On Magic - I don't like to hand-wave health, but Magic might be one player I'm willing to do so for since his circumstances were unique (I wrote a thread on RealGM on this). But even so, two more years at say 90% of his 90-91 level of play could make a difference.

Curry is somebody I'm extremely high on. He'll probably be in my top 5 if he plays a few more years at this level.

[Y2K]

I’d wager I have KG higher than FPL.

Honestly I'm not sure, haven't done a list like this in a while. Keep in mind that my list is basically the order in which I'd draft players for today's league (with the goal being to contend for multiple titles). Not getting into the LeBron or Kobe stuff, but for other players typically in the conversation:

Definitely ahead - Jordan, Russell
Probably ahead - Olajuwon, Kareem (though I need to reevaluate his defense)
Toss-up - Duncan
Probably behind - Shaq (defensive concerns with pick-and-roll, and inconsistent on that end in general), Magic (see below),
Definitely behind - Oscar + West (less likely to assume non-bigs can translate to today, since there's more competition for smaller guys; pretty much all post-shot clock bigs could play today), Robinson (underrated longevity, but has playoff resiliency issues) Wilt (not in my top 10, low BBIQ player, though solid defensively), Bird (longevity issues + back), Malone (playoff issues, and Stockton helped make him, though the latter was incapable of elevating his game in the playoffs), Dirk (elite scorer, but limitations as a scorer and defensively limit his ceiling), Erving (rates poorly in +/-)

So as high as 3, as low as 8, probably in the middle.

On Magic - I don't like to hand-wave health, but Magic might be one player I'm willing to do so for since his circumstances were unique (I wrote a thread on RealGM on this). But even so, two more years at say 90% of his 90-91 level of play could make a difference.

Curry is somebody I'm extremely high on. He'll probably be in my top 5 if he plays a few more years at this level.

I do not have him as high on my personal list but he's definitely gained ground over the last 2 years as I have evaluated him further.

[Dagger]

I’d wager I have KG higher than FPL.

Honestly I'm not sure, haven't done a list like this in a while. Keep in mind that my list is basically the order in which I'd draft players for today's league (with the goal being to contend for multiple titles). Not getting into the LeBron or Kobe stuff, but for other players typically in the conversation:

Definitely ahead - Jordan, Russell
Probably ahead - Olajuwon, Kareem (though I need to reevaluate his defense)
Toss-up - Duncan
Probably behind - Shaq (defensive concerns with pick-and-roll, and inconsistent on that end in general), Magic (see below),
Definitely behind - Oscar + West (less likely to assume non-bigs can translate to today, since there's more competition for smaller guys; pretty much all post-shot clock bigs could play today), Robinson (underrated longevity, but has playoff resiliency issues) Wilt (not in my top 10, low BBIQ player, though solid defensively), Bird (longevity issues + back), Malone (playoff issues, and Stockton helped make him, though the latter was incapable of elevating his game in the playoffs), Dirk (elite scorer, but limitations as a scorer and defensively limit his ceiling), Erving (rates poorly in +/-)

So as high as 3, as low as 8, probably in the middle.

On Magic - I don't like to hand-wave health, but Magic might be one player I'm willing to do so for since his circumstances were unique (I wrote a thread on RealGM on this). But even so, two more years at say 90% of his 90-91 level of play could make a difference.

Curry is somebody I'm extremely high on. He'll probably be in my top 5 if he plays a few more years at this level.

It is hard for me to compare him with multi-title/MVP winners who played on fairly stacked teams (Magic/Bird). On a pure skills and durability perspective, I think KG’s defensive advantage outweighs and offensive edge for those two. And I firmly believe KG was a multiple championship player who ended up in the worst circumstance of any historic level superstar in history - winning a title year 1 in Boston on a complete makeover team is evidenced enough. But I gravitate towards absolutes a bit over hypothetical I suppose. I do not think their are 10 players in history who made a bigger impact on a team’s offense-defense-intangibles over a long period than KG though.

[Bush4Ever35]

Garnett (8th) report is posted:

http://www.backpicks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty much exactly what I would have said if you asked me to give a scouting report, but I would definitely underrate his non-box metrics compared to other players if you asked me for an estimate before I became better informed on that point.

[Dagger]

Garnett (8th) report is posted:

http://www.backpicks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty much exactly what I would have said if you asked me to give a scouting report, but I would definitely underrate his non-box metrics compared to other players if you asked me for an estimate before I became better informed on that point.

dammit this is going to read like pure pornography for me.... why does the site keep crashing!

[Sudanese Sensation]

"Even at eighth, I still question whether I underrate him. He achieved his incredible statistical profile on a broken franchise with mediocre coaches..."

Is it a player's fault if management surrounds him with a cast of clowns ? This is the question upon which all evaluation of a team player hangs.

[Sudanese Sensation]

Garnett (8th) report is posted:

http://www.backpicks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty much exactly what I would have said if you asked me to give a scouting report, but I would definitely underrate his non-box metrics compared to other players if you asked me for an estimate before I became better informed on that point.

dammit this is going to read like pure pornography for me.... why does the site keep crashing!

The abundance of videos are slowing down the page.

[Dagger]

"Even at eighth, I still question whether I underrate him. He achieved his incredible statistical profile on a broken franchise with mediocre coaches..."

Is it a player's fault if management surrounds him with a cast of clowns ? This is the question upon which all evaluation of a team player hangs.

He didn’t even mention that the Wolves were constrained by the lockout and changing CBA coming right after (and partly because of) KG’s monster contract extension in ~97. Another of the perfect shot storm that killed his chances in Minnesota.

[Dagger]

And that was an amazing read. I am fully torqued.

[Odogg]

And that was an amazing read. I am fully torqued.

Is this awkward being at work?

[Dagger]

And that was an amazing read. I am fully torqued.

Is this awkward being at work?

I just can’t get up from my desk

[Y2K]

"Even at eighth, I still question whether I underrate him. He achieved his incredible statistical profile on a broken franchise with mediocre coaches..."

Is it a player's fault if management surrounds him with a cast of clowns ? This is the question upon which all evaluation of a team player hangs.

It's not. The way that I look at it is: How did a player impact his team's circumstances given what he had? That's not just The Supporting Cast of players but also the coaching staff.

I don't know a single team that was built to fail that found a way to win a championship. Why should we expect players to be fully responsible for that?

[Y2K]

"Even at eighth, I still question whether I underrate him. He achieved his incredible statistical profile on a broken franchise with mediocre coaches..."

Is it a player's fault if management surrounds him with a cast of clowns ? This is the question upon which all evaluation of a team player hangs.

He didn’t even mention that the Wolves were constrained by the lockout and changing CBA coming right after (and partly because of) KG’s monster contract extension in ~97. Another of the perfect shot storm that killed his chances in Minnesota.

And then the Joe Smith Fiasco.

[Dagger]

"Even at eighth, I still question whether I underrate him. He achieved his incredible statistical profile on a broken franchise with mediocre coaches..."

Is it a player's fault if management surrounds him with a cast of clowns ? This is the question upon which all evaluation of a team player hangs.

He didn’t even mention that the Wolves were constrained by the lockout and changing CBA coming right after (and partly because of) KG’s monster contract extension in ~97. Another of the perfect shot storm that killed his chances in Minnesota.

And then the Joe Smith Fiasco.

He did reference that though, and how atrocious the team was around him by 2005.

[Sudanese Sensation]

Why do some of the same posters want to penalize players for winning championships on so called loaded teams while failing to reward players who play exceptionally well on poor teams ?