Backpick all time rankings..

[Lamelo_Ball]

damn .. someone isn't too high on scottie. as for me lol


- ability to play multiple positions #1 all time along with lebron. PG/SG/SF/PF
- versatility 2nd most versatile ever. can be your playmaker/primary scorer/defensive anchor/post player
- playmaking assist leader for 6 title teams. perfect facilitator for an offense with ball movement
- perimeter and post defense #1 all time versatility wise. could guard a PG/SG/SF/PF and undersized center. usually handled the other teams best scorer. not mike
- ball handling best point forward in history behind magic johnson. no stagnating the offense like lebron
- shooting 32.6% three point shooter with highs of 35%, 37% twice, and 34% twice. when he learned how to shoot he was good. hit basically 1000 threes in his career.. no slouch
- posting up very good post up player. excellent on the block. took a young kobe to school. could score over bigs. great center of balance.
- rebounding very good rebounder considering he played point forward and had rodman cleaning up the boards... getting 6 a night was enough
- length for his versatility hes the perfect length. which helped his post play and defense incredibly
- unselfishness disregard that one black eye vs new york and hes the most unselfish superstar in history. sacrificed probably 10k worth of points in order to win games and let another guy get all the glory....



@FPL why do you hate the man so much lol

[FPL]

Please do the same exercise for Kobe and LeBron.

Thank you in advance.

I think Kobe and LeBron are both flawed players. Then again, every all-time great has holes in his game. I probably don't value the same things as griff outlined though:

Things that matter to me:

• Clear footprint of impact (mostly using +/- based metrics)
• Longevity as an impact player (so neither Bill Walton nor Kevin Willis will make my list)
• For offensive anchors, drawing doubles or get the defense to collapse (as are and passing out of both and getting to the line)
• Resiliency, i.e. game translates to the playoffs (little drop of against top defenses or slower pace)
• Consistent defense (equal to offense for bigs, 40/60 with offense for perimeter players, can survive one bad guy there)
• Playmaking and court vision (not all high assist players rate well, not all players who rate well have high assists)
• Portability, i.e. ability to succeed in different situations (with different coaches/supporting casts)
• Value in today's game, as opposed to in a past era (NBA is clearly moving in one direction)

[Lamelo_Ball]

Please do the same exercise for Kobe and LeBron.

Thank you in advance.

I think Kobe and LeBron are both flawed players. Then again, every all-time great has holes in his game. I probably don't value the same things as griff outlined though:

Things that matter to me:

• Clear footprint of impact (mostly using +/- based metrics)
• Longevity as an impact player (so neither Bill Walton nor Kevin Willis will make my list)
• For offensive anchors, drawing doubles or get the defense to collapse (as are and passing out of both and getting to the line)
• Resiliency, i.e. game translates to the playoffs (little drop of against top defenses or slower pace)
• Consistent defense (equal to offense for bigs, 40/60 with offense for perimeter players, can survive one bad guy there)
• Playmaking and court vision (not all high assist players rate well, not all players who rate well have high assists)
• Portability, i.e. ability to succeed in different situations (with different coaches/supporting casts)
• Value in today's game, as opposed to in a past era (NBA is clearly moving in one direction)

would you agree that the better teammate regardless of assist numbers is actually kobe and not lebron

considering kobe wouldn't stagnate the offense chasing triple doubles and would let the triangle work itself out most of the time. let guys like shaq and gasol do what they do best. be a decoy at times. get the hockey assist/make the best pass rather than the assist pass etc...

stats don't tell the whole story.

if i have a bunch of bums then lebrons the better guy with the ball in his hands


however if i have a good team with other great players. kobes the better teammate since he can get his without inhibiting others


so what you may think is a kobe flaw is actually one of his biggest strengths


kobe also doesn't yell at teammates during timeouts for not giving 100% if he himself also isn't giving 100% like lebron seems to do alot


everyone has their worst career stats playing with lebron. everyone has their best career stats playing with kobe...

[Sudanese Sensation]

Please do the same exercise for Kobe and LeBron.

Thank you in advance.

I think Kobe and LeBron are both flawed players. Then again, every all-time great has holes in his game. I probably don't value the same things as griff outlined though:

Things that matter to me:

• Clear footprint of impact (mostly using +/- based metrics)
• Longevity as an impact player (so neither Bill Walton nor Kevin Willis will make my list)
• For offensive anchors, drawing doubles or get the defense to collapse (as are and passing out of both and getting to the line)
• Resiliency, i.e. game translates to the playoffs (little drop of against top defenses or slower pace)
• Consistent defense (equal to offense for bigs, 40/60 with offense for perimeter players, can survive one bad guy there)
• Playmaking and court vision (not all high assist players rate well, not all players who rate well have high assists)
• Portability, i.e. ability to succeed in different situations (with different coaches/supporting casts)
• Value in today's game, as opposed to in a past era (NBA is clearly moving in one direction)

Which of those categories does Kobe have the advantage in ? Which of those categories does LeBron have the advantage in ?

Thank you in advance.

Not that's either here nor there but I can imagine scenarios where a prime DWade, Kobe, James or KG could be the best player on a championship team, Pippen not so much...

[FPL]

[would you agree that the better teammate regardless of assist numbers is actually kobe and not lebron

considering kobe wouldn't stagnate the offense chasing triple doubles and would let the triangle work itself out most of the time. let guys like shaq and gasol do what they do best. be a decoy at times. get the hockey assist/make the best pass rather than the assist pass etc...

stats don't tell the whole story.

if i have a bunch of bums then lebrons the better guy with the ball in his hands


however if i have a good team with other great players. kobes the better teammate since he can get his without inhibiting others


so what you may think is a kobe flaw is actually one of his biggest strengths

I'm not a box score stats guy, so I will leave that analysis to others. I think the difference between Kobe and LeBron is this though:

• LeBron is the better floor-raiser (i.e. he raises your worst-case scenario more). See his play in CLE before going to MIA, or the 15 Finals. He can elevate the minimum level of play with role players since he is ball-dominant and creates for others, but only fits well along certain types of stars. Better in freelance than in a system.

• Kobe is the better ceiling-raiser (i.e. he raises your best-case scenario more). Look at the 2001 Lakers, or even the 2008 Olympic team. Kobe takes a lot of shots, but he doesn't dominate the ball. Since he's the maybe the best bad-shot maker ever, he makes it easier for other star players. Plays well in a structured offense.

[Lamelo_Ball]

Please do the same exercise for Kobe and LeBron.

Thank you in advance.

I think Kobe and LeBron are both flawed players. Then again, every all-time great has holes in his game. I probably don't value the same things as griff outlined though:

Things that matter to me:

• Clear footprint of impact (mostly using +/- based metrics)
• Longevity as an impact player (so neither Bill Walton nor Kevin Willis will make my list)
• For offensive anchors, drawing doubles or get the defense to collapse (as are and passing out of both and getting to the line)
• Resiliency, i.e. game translates to the playoffs (little drop of against top defenses or slower pace)
• Consistent defense (equal to offense for bigs, 40/60 with offense for perimeter players, can survive one bad guy there)
• Playmaking and court vision (not all high assist players rate well, not all players who rate well have high assists)
• Portability, i.e. ability to succeed in different situations (with different coaches/supporting casts)
• Value in today's game, as opposed to in a past era (NBA is clearly moving in one direction)

Which of those categories does Kobe have the advantage in ? Which of those categories does LeBron have the advantage in ?

Thank you in advance.

Not that's either here nor there but I can imagine scenarios where a prime DWade, Kobe, James or KG could be the best player on a championship team, Pippen not so much...

i don't think FPL knows that lebron being an offensive ANCHOR is actually one of his biggest flaws when playing with other great players

its great on teams like the 2007 cavs... but didn't help him with shaq in 2010, or wade/bosh in 2011,14... or love/kyrie in 2017 ( and shouldn't have in 2013,2016 without obviously fluke shots/suspensions )


lebrons ego/agenda is cancerous... if i'm picking a fantasy lineup i'd sooner have pippen as my small forward TBH

[Lamelo_Ball]

[would you agree that the better teammate regardless of assist numbers is actually kobe and not lebron

considering kobe wouldn't stagnate the offense chasing triple doubles and would let the triangle work itself out most of the time. let guys like shaq and gasol do what they do best. be a decoy at times. get the hockey assist/make the best pass rather than the assist pass etc...

stats don't tell the whole story.

if i have a bunch of bums then lebrons the better guy with the ball in his hands


however if i have a good team with other great players. kobes the better teammate since he can get his without inhibiting others


so what you may think is a kobe flaw is actually one of his biggest strengths

I'm not a box score stats guy, so I will leave that analysis to others. I think the difference between Kobe and LeBron is this though:

• LeBron is the better floor-raiser (i.e. he raises your worst-case scenario more). See his play in CLE before going to MIA, or the 15 Finals. He can elevate the minimum level of play with role players since he is ball-dominant and creates for others, but only fits well along certain types of stars. Better in freelance than in a system.

• Kobe is the better ceiling-raiser (i.e. he raises your best-case scenario more). Look at the 2001 Lakers, or even the 2008 Olympic team. Kobe takes a lot of shots, but he doesn't dominate the ball. Since he's the maybe the best bad-shot maker ever, he makes it easier for other star players. Plays well in a structured offense.

this is my point. lebrons agenda doesn't translate to wins... it only looks good on bad teams


shaq and lebron win zero titles together..

however kobe/wade/bosh probly 4peat




lebron would have shaq standing 5 feet outside the paint and running in for rebounds like tristan thompson lol

[FPL]

Which of those categories does Kobe have the advantage in ? Which of those categories does LeBron have the advantage in ?

Thank you in advance.

Not that's either here nor there but I can imagine scenarios where a prime DWade, Kobe, James or KG could be the best player on a championship team, Pippen not so much...

• Clear footprint of impact (mostly using +/- based metrics) LeBron (only really Russell, Magic, Garnett rank higher consistently)
• Longevity as an impact player (so neither Bill Walton nor Kevin Willis will make my list) equal
• For offensive anchors, drawing doubles or get the defense to collapse (as are and passing out of both and getting to the line) equal
• Resiliency, i.e. game translates to the playoffs (little drop of against top defenses or slower pace) Kobe
• Consistent defense (equal to offense for bigs, 40/60 with offense for perimeter players, can survive one bad guy there) equal (LeBron was better at his peak, but both are overrated in terms of their reputations)
• Playmaking and court vision (not all high assist players rate well, not all players who rate well have high assists) LeBron
• Portability, i.e. ability to succeed in different situations (with different coaches/supporting casts) Kobe
• Value in today's game, as opposed to in a past era (NBA is clearly moving in one direction) equal

[Sudanese Sensation]

I think Kobe and LeBron are both flawed players. Then again, every all-time great has holes in his game. I probably don't value the same things as griff outlined though:

Things that matter to me:

• Clear footprint of impact (mostly using +/- based metrics)
• Longevity as an impact player (so neither Bill Walton nor Kevin Willis will make my list)
• For offensive anchors, drawing doubles or get the defense to collapse (as are and passing out of both and getting to the line)
• Resiliency, i.e. game translates to the playoffs (little drop of against top defenses or slower pace)
• Consistent defense (equal to offense for bigs, 40/60 with offense for perimeter players, can survive one bad guy there)
• Playmaking and court vision (not all high assist players rate well, not all players who rate well have high assists)
• Portability, i.e. ability to succeed in different situations (with different coaches/supporting casts)
• Value in today's game, as opposed to in a past era (NBA is clearly moving in one direction)

Which of those categories does Kobe have the advantage in ? Which of those categories does LeBron have the advantage in ?

Thank you in advance.

Not that's either here nor there but I can imagine scenarios where a prime DWade, Kobe, James or KG could be the best player on a championship team, Pippen not so much...

i don't think FPL knows that lebron being an offensive ANCHOR is actually one of his biggest flaws when playing with other great players

its great on teams like the 2007 cavs... but didn't help him with shaq in 2010, or wade/bosh in 2011,14... or love/kyrie in 2017 ( and shouldn't have in 2013,2016 without obviously fluke shots/suspensions )


lebrons ego/agenda is cancerous... if i'm picking a fantasy lineup i'd sooner have pippen as my small forward TBH

Shaq was baked by the time he arrived in Cleveland. He had to beg the Celtics to give him a minimum contract the next year. The Heat went to four straight Finals and won two.

[Lamelo_Ball]

Which of those categories does Kobe have the advantage in ? Which of those categories does LeBron have the advantage in ?

Thank you in advance.

Not that's either here nor there but I can imagine scenarios where a prime DWade, Kobe, James or KG could be the best player on a championship team, Pippen not so much...

i don't think FPL knows that lebron being an offensive ANCHOR is actually one of his biggest flaws when playing with other great players

its great on teams like the 2007 cavs... but didn't help him with shaq in 2010, or wade/bosh in 2011,14... or love/kyrie in 2017 ( and shouldn't have in 2013,2016 without obviously fluke shots/suspensions )


lebrons ego/agenda is cancerous... if i'm picking a fantasy lineup i'd sooner have pippen as my small forward TBH

Shaq was baked by the time he arrived in Cleveland. He had to beg the Celtics to give him a minimum contract the next year. The Heat went to four straight Finals and won two.

shaq in phoenix was an allstar averaging nearly 20ppg a year before going to cleveland to die ... like i said. lebron kills other stars. especially ones that don't fit his style. lebron needs stretch shooters

and prime kobe on miami doesn't flop vs the mavericks.. let jason terry fuck his ass .... nor does peak kobe get outdone by some 2nd year dude in sanantonio with a semi retired tim duncan


kobe historically owns the spurs.

[thedangerouskitchen]

How is the author not consistent?

You were already provided with several examples.

"Pippen 23rd but KG Top 8... Magic/Bird borderline Top 10... Karl Malone ahead of Kobe, etc., etc... it's laughable in too many ways to count, really." - TDK

So what's the problem according to you?

The problem is obvious... so obvious it makes TDK wonder whether you / others on the board actually created this list.



There is absolutely no justification for KG and Pippen being ranked so far apart. None, zero, zip... given the criteria of the rankings (ie; "the very thing I'm trying to tease out is who provided the most lift... it's about the impact each had in his own time over the course of his career"... regardless of the caliber of his teammates, the era played, awards/accolades won, etc). Since you / others disagree, go ahead and tell us why you think it's justified.

Magic and Bird, based on said criteria, should be right-there with Russell (based on the Lakers / Celtics success with/without them, tenure in the league, etc.). This one is a no-brainer.

Malone played his entire career alongside another all-time great HOFER and together they didn't accomplish squat... so exactly how did he have a greater impact on his team/s than Kobe, who was intrumental on 5 Championhip teams (as a #2 and a top dog)? Go ahead and explain why you thing Malone should get the nod.

[Sudanese Sensation]

i don't think FPL knows that lebron being an offensive ANCHOR is actually one of his biggest flaws when playing with other great players

its great on teams like the 2007 cavs... but didn't help him with shaq in 2010, or wade/bosh in 2011,14... or love/kyrie in 2017 ( and shouldn't have in 2013,2016 without obviously fluke shots/suspensions )


lebrons ego/agenda is cancerous... if i'm picking a fantasy lineup i'd sooner have pippen as my small forward TBH

Shaq was baked by the time he arrived in Cleveland. He had to beg the Celtics to give him a minimum contract the next year. The Heat went to four straight Finals and won two.

shaq in phoenix was an allstar averaging nearly 20ppg a year before going to cleveland to die ... like i said. lebron kills other stars. especially ones that don't fit his style. lebron needs stretch shooters

and prime kobe on miami doesn't flop vs the mavericks.. let jason terry fuck his ass .... nor does peak kobe get outdone by some 2nd year dude in sanantonio with a semi retired tim duncan


kobe historically owns the spurs.

SAS was a 2-1 favorite when they beat MIA in 014. We already did this exercise. LeBron is 3-5 in the Finals. In five of his losses his team was only favored in one. In three of his wins his team was only favored in one. That's the only fair way to look at wins and losses, for any athlete, in any sport.

[Lamelo_Ball]

You were already provided with several examples.

"Pippen 23rd but KG Top 8... Magic/Bird borderline Top 10... Karl Malone ahead of Kobe, etc., etc... it's laughable in too many ways to count, really." - TDK

So what's the problem according to you?

The problem is obvious... so obvious it makes TDK wonder whether you / others on the board actually created this list.



There is absolutely no justification for KG and Pippen being ranked so far apart. None, zero, zip... given the criteria of the rankings (ie; "the very thing I'm trying to tease out is who provided the most lift... it's about the impact each had in his own time over the course of his career"... regardless of the caliber of his teammates, the era played, awards/accolades won, etc). Since you / others disagree, go ahead and tell us why you think it's justified.

Magic and Bird, based on said criteria, should be right-there with Russell (based on the Lakers / Celtics success with/without them, tenure in the league, etc.). This one is a no-brainer.

Malone played his entire career alongside another all-time great HOFER and together they didn't accomplish squat... so exactly how did he have a greater impact on his team/s than Kobe, who was intrumental on 5 Championhip teams (as a #2 and a top dog)? Go ahead and explain why you thing Malone should get the nod.

shit. draymond green belongs in the top 10 lol

[thedangerouskitchen]

You were already provided with several examples.

"Pippen 23rd but KG Top 8... Magic/Bird borderline Top 10... Karl Malone ahead of Kobe, etc., etc... it's laughable in too many ways to count, really." - TDK

So what's the problem according to you?

Ignoring everything else, I would love to hear an argument— even a drunken, rambling one— for Pippen over KG.

Perhaps you should improve your reading comprehension skills, or maybe it's you who should put down the bottle. I never said Pippen should be ranked ahead of KG, little bitch.

[FPL]

As an aside:

When people talk about playing multiple positions, I don't think they mean the same thing as I have in mind. To me, you can't play a position unless you can defend that position. What you do on the offensive side of the ball isn't as much of a bottleneck as what you *can't* do on the defensive end is. Some examples:

Magic Johnson - Could post-up, run your offense, crash offensive boards, spot-up later in his career. That's all great. But he couldn't defend most guards. So it doesn't make a ton of sense to say he can play 1-5.

Dirk Nowitzki - Could run the pick-and-roll in his prime, can shoot from anywhere on the floor. But he can't guard anyone aside from bigs, just doesn't have the foot speed or reaction time. So he's still a 4 or 5.

LeBron or Scottie - Both guys could guard 2-4, but neither could guard quick point guards. So I don't think it's accurate to say either played the point guard.

Nobody really could play 1-5. Closest three IMO are Draymond, Rodman, and Garnett. Green can guard 1-5 today since there aren't many real power centers anymore (he's one of the top 2 rim protectors in the game statistically, and can guard any perimeter player; he isn't a good man defender on legit post up 7 footers of course). Rodman could guard 1-4 with the Pistons, and 2-5 with the Spurs or Bulls - just couldn't do both at the same time. Garnett could guard 2-5 for an entire game, and could switch onto any 1 or 5, but couldn't stay in front of Iverson or check Shaq for an entire game.

But yeah, my point is that, every wing that is a decent ball-handler, or every big that can hit a jumper, isn't necessarily someone who can play multiple positions. More often than not, these guys are tweeners who can't guard anybody at a high level.

[Lamelo_Ball]

Shaq was baked by the time he arrived in Cleveland. He had to beg the Celtics to give him a minimum contract the next year. The Heat went to four straight Finals and won two.

shaq in phoenix was an allstar averaging nearly 20ppg a year before going to cleveland to die ... like i said. lebron kills other stars. especially ones that don't fit his style. lebron needs stretch shooters

and prime kobe on miami doesn't flop vs the mavericks.. let jason terry fuck his ass .... nor does peak kobe get outdone by some 2nd year dude in sanantonio with a semi retired tim duncan


kobe historically owns the spurs.

SAS was a 2-1 favorite when they beat MIA in 014. We already did this exercise. LeBron is 3-5 in the Finals. In five of his losses his team was only favored in one. In three of his wins his team was only favored in one. That's the only fair way to look at wins and losses, for any athlete, in any sport.

miami had 3 prime hall of famers ( lebron, wade, bosh ) and a still dominant clutch shooting hall of famer in ray allen

they also had shane battier, rashard lewis, michael beasley, udonis haslam, chris anderson, chalmers and cole


regardless of the odds given based on regular season standings... the heat had

1. a better team
2. a better 1st option
3. a better 2nd option
4. a better 3rd option
5. more recent championship experience


lebron lost finals mvp to the man he was defending


he blamed his failures on cramps due to a faulty air conditioner

phpBB [video]

and this happened

phpBB [video]

one of the most embarrassing moments for any superstar in history

[Sudanese Sensation]

Why couldn't opposing centers pull the chair on Shaq ?

He had amazing balance and reflexes for a giant.

[rtiff68]

"Pippen 23rd but KG Top 8... Magic/Bird borderline Top 10... Karl Malone ahead of Kobe, etc., etc... it's laughable in too many ways to count, really." - TDK

So what's the problem according to you?

Ignoring everything else, I would love to hear an argument— even a drunken, rambling one— for Pippen over KG.

Perhaps you should improve your reading comprehension skills, or maybe it's you who should put down the bottle. I never said Pippen should be ranked ahead of KG, little bitch.

Why should they be ranked so much closer then, Grif...eh, I mean, TDK?

PS: you have forfeited the right to ever call anyone a little bitch again in this community. You forfeited said right when you, as a man in his 50’s, cried to the ProBoards admins in an effort to shut down an entire internet community because a poster (house) hurt your wittle feelings online by changing a word filter (something easy to do against you because you’re hilariously and predictably repetitive).

You’re a caricature and a punchline here.

[Lamelo_Ball]

As an aside:

When people talk about playing multiple positions, I don't think they mean the same thing as I have in mind. To me, you can't play a position unless you can defend that position. What you do on the offensive side of the ball isn't as much of a bottleneck as what you *can't* do on the defensive end is. Some examples:

Magic Johnson - Could post-up, run your offense, crash offensive boards, spot-up later in his career. That's all great. But he couldn't defend most guards. So it doesn't make a ton of sense to say he can play 1-5.

Dirk Nowitzki - Could run the pick-and-roll in his prime, can shoot from anywhere on the floor. But he can't guard anyone aside from bigs, just doesn't have the foot speed or reaction time. So he's still a 4 or 5.

LeBron or Scottie - Both guys could guard 2-4, but neither could guard quick point guards. So I don't think it's accurate to say either played the point guard.

Nobody really could play 1-5. Closest three IMO are Draymond, Rodman, and Garnett. Green can guard 1-5 today since there aren't many real power centers anymore (he's one of the top 2 rim protectors in the game statistically, and can guard any perimeter player; he isn't a good man defender on legit post up 7 footers of course). Rodman could guard 1-4 with the Pistons, and 2-5 with the Spurs or Bulls - just couldn't do both at the same time. Garnett could guard 2-4 for an entire game, and could switch onto any 1 or 5, but couldn't stay in front of Iverson or check Shaq for an entire game.

But yeah, my point is that, every wing that is a decent ball-handler, or every big that can hit a jumper, isn't necessarily someone who can play multiple positions. More often than not, these guys are tweeners who can't guard anybody at a high level.

scottie defended anyone and everyone well 1-4























what did scottie do to you @FPL lol

[Sudanese Sensation]

shaq in phoenix was an allstar averaging nearly 20ppg a year before going to cleveland to die ... like i said. lebron kills other stars. especially ones that don't fit his style. lebron needs stretch shooters

and prime kobe on miami doesn't flop vs the mavericks.. let jason terry fuck his ass .... nor does peak kobe get outdone by some 2nd year dude in sanantonio with a semi retired tim duncan


kobe historically owns the spurs.

SAS was a 2-1 favorite when they beat MIA in 014. We already did this exercise. LeBron is 3-5 in the Finals. In five of his losses his team was only favored in one. In three of his wins his team was only favored in one. That's the only fair way to look at wins and losses, for any athlete, in any sport.

miami had 3 prime hall of famers ( lebron, wade, bosh ) and a still dominant clutch shooting hall of famer in ray allen

they also had shane battier, rashard lewis, michael beasley, udonis haslam, chris anderson, chalmers and cole


regardless of the odds given based on regular season standings... the heat had

1. a better team
2. a better 1st option
3. a better 2nd option
4. a better 3rd option
5. more recent championship experience


lebron lost finals mvp to the man he was defending




he blamed his failures on cramps due to a faulty air conditioner

phpBB [video]

and this happened

phpBB [video]

one of the most embarrassing moments for any superstar in history

They weren't much help

PPG

Battier 0
Cole 3
Lewis 9
Beasley 9
Haslem 1
Andersen 3
Chalmers 4


You forgot to mention Greg Oden.

The stat line for LeBron's embarrassing performance.

28/8/4./.571/.519