So a 5th Superbowl would make Tom Brady the undisputed GOAT, right?

[rtiff68]

# of times leading/top 5 in a categories

Montana: 2/7
Brady: 4/9

Passing Yards

Montana: 0/5
Brady: 2/6

Total Offense

Montana: 0/6
Brady: 2/6

Question about this, Rob: how are you defining "Total Offense?" I took one click look at 1989 (because I was shocked at the "0"), and 49ers were #1 in total offense that year. Pro Football Reference has them #2 in "Passing Offense," but the only category where the Redskins (#1) had any advantage was in "Passing Yards"-- they were crushed everywhere else.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Robceltsfan]

Montana's playoff opponent's defensive ranks (points/yards)

1981
Giants 3/3
Cowboys 7/20
Bengals 12/12
1983
Lions 2/11
Redskins 11/12 L
1984
Giants 8/11
Bears 3/1
Dolphins 7/19
1985
Giants 5/2 L
1986
Giants 2/2 L
1987
Vikings 16/10 L
1988
Vikings 2/1
Bears 1/2
Bengals 16/15
1989
Vikings 6/1
Rams 17/21
Broncos 1/3
1990
Redskins 13/14
Giants 1/2 L
1993 (now on the Chiefs)
Steelers 8/3
Oilers 4/14
Bills 5/27 L
1994
Dolphins 17/19 L

Average ranks (points/yards): 6.19/8.33

Brady's playoff opponent's defensive ranks (points/yards)

2001
Raiders 19/18
Steelers 3/1
Rams 7/3
2003
Titans 13/12
Colts 20/11
Panthers 10/8
2004
Colts 19/29
Steelers 1/1
Eagles 2/10
2005
Jaguars 6/6
Broncos 3/15 L
2006
Jets 6/20
Chargers 7/10
Colts 23/21 L
2007
Jaguars 10/12
Chargers 5/14
Giants 17/7 L
2009
Ravens 3/3 L
2010
Jets 6/3 L
2011
Broncos 24/20
Ravens 3/3
Giants 25/27 L
2012
Texans 9/7
Ravens 12/17 L
2013
Colts 9/20
Broncos 22/19 L
2014
Ravens 6/8
Colts 19/11
Seahawks 1/1
2015
Chiefs 3/7
Broncos 4/1 L
2016
Texans 11/1
Steelers 10/12

Average ranks (points/yards): 10.24/10.84


I should have done offensive ranks as well while I was in all those team pages....as I think you'd see Brady playing against better offenses than Montana, relatively speaking. Regardless, Montana definitely played against higher ranked defenses in the playoffs BY A LOT. I'm marginally surprised.

[Robceltsfan]

# of times leading/top 5 in a categories

Montana: 2/7
Brady: 4/9

Passing Yards

Montana: 0/5
Brady: 2/6

Total Offense

Montana: 0/6
Brady: 2/6

Question about this, Rob: how are you defining "Total Offense?" I took one click look at 1989 (because I was shocked at the "0"), and 49ers were #1 in total offense that year. Pro Football Reference has them #2 in "Passing Offense," but the only category where the Redskins (#1) had any advantage was in "Passing Yards"-- they were crushed everywhere else.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total offense is a player stat. It's simply (passing yards - sack yards + rushing/receiving yards). I wasn't really sure what it was either when I posted it, but it was a category on each player's "leaderboards" section so it seemed relevant. The only way that stat could sway our argument was if one player had a top offense (yardage-wise) WITH a lot of rushing help from his tailbacks....while the other had a top offense without much help from other offensive players.

[rtiff68]

# of times leading/top 5 in a categories

Montana: 2/7
Brady: 4/9

Passing Yards

Montana: 0/5
Brady: 2/6

Total Offense

Montana: 0/6
Brady: 2/6

Question about this, Rob: how are you defining "Total Offense?" I took one click look at 1989 (because I was shocked at the "0"), and 49ers were #1 in total offense that year. Pro Football Reference has them #2 in "Passing Offense," but the only category where the Redskins (#1) had any advantage was in "Passing Yards"-- they were crushed everywhere else.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total offense is a player stat. It's simply (passing yards - sack yards + rushing/receiving yards). I wasn't really sure what it was either when I posted it, but it was a category on each player's "leaderboards" section so it seemed relevant. The only way that stat could sway our argument was if one player had a top offense (yardage-wise) WITH a lot of rushing help from his tailbacks....while the other had a top offense without much help from other offensive players.

Thanks for posting those things. Off to work-- back on later.

[rtiff68]

# of times leading/top 5 in a categories

Montana: 2/7
Brady: 4/9

Passing Yards

Montana: 0/5
Brady: 2/6

Total Offense

Montana: 0/6
Brady: 2/6

Question about this, Rob: how are you defining "Total Offense?" I took one click look at 1989 (because I was shocked at the "0"), and 49ers were #1 in total offense that year. Pro Football Reference has them #2 in "Passing Offense," but the only category where the Redskins (#1) had any advantage was in "Passing Yards"-- they were crushed everywhere else.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total offense is a player stat. It's simply (passing yards - sack yards + rushing/receiving yards). I wasn't really sure what it was either when I posted it, but it was a category on each player's "leaderboards" section so it seemed relevant. The only way that stat could sway our argument was if one player had a top offense (yardage-wise) WITH a lot of rushing help from his tailbacks....while the other had a top offense without much help from other offensive players.

As much as I love Pro Football/Basketball Reference, I think that their "Passing Offense" statistic is a bit silly. I said earlier that Montana's 1989 was the best season by a QB in NFL history-- reasonable minds can certainly disagree on that, but that season is, without question, at least towards the top of the pile (top 5, let's say). Any statistic that would rate the '89 Rypien/Williams season over the '89 Montana/Young season is a pretty lousy statistic, in my opinion.

'89 'Skins: 58.0% cmp / 24 TDs / 17 INTs / 7.7 Y/A / 271.8 Y/G / 84.1 passer rating / 21 sacks allowed

'89 'Niners: 70.2% cmp / 35 TDs / 11 INTs / 9.5 Y/A / 268.9 Y/G / 114.8 passer rating / 45 sacks allowed

[rtiff68]

A look at another year gave the same bizarre results. Pro Football Reference's 1987 "Passing Offense" rankings...

1) Miami: 57.9% cmp / 29 TDs / 20 INTs / 6.8 Y/A / 258.4 Y/G / 81.0 passer rating / 13 sacks allowed

2) SF: 64.5% cmp / 44 TDs / 14 TDs / 7.9 Y/A / 250.0 Y/G / 106.2 passer rating / 29 sacks allowed



The 49ers were the #1 offense in the league in 1987 and 1989, for the record. I don't think I even need to look at another year to conclude that this statistic belongs in the scrap pile.

[elmouse03]

A look at another year gave the same bizarre results. Pro Football Reference's 1987 "Passing Offense" rankings...

1) Miami: 57.9% cmp / 29 TDs / 20 INTs / 6.8 Y/A / 258.4 Y/G / 81.0 passer rating / 13 sacks allowed

2) SF: 64.5% cmp / 44 TDs / 14 TDs / 7.9 Y/A / 250.0 Y/G / 106.2 passer rating / 29 sacks allowed



The 49ers were the #1 offense in the league in 1987 and 1989, for the record. I don't think I even need to look at another year to conclude that this statistic belongs in the scrap pile.

87 and 89 49ers. Both Montana and Young played great in those seasons.

[rtiff68]

A look at another year gave the same bizarre results. Pro Football Reference's 1987 "Passing Offense" rankings...

1) Miami: 57.9% cmp / 29 TDs / 20 INTs / 6.8 Y/A / 258.4 Y/G / 81.0 passer rating / 13 sacks allowed

2) SF: 64.5% cmp / 44 TDs / 14 TDs / 7.9 Y/A / 250.0 Y/G / 106.2 passer rating / 29 sacks allowed



The 49ers were the #1 offense in the league in 1987 and 1989, for the record. I don't think I even need to look at another year to conclude that this statistic belongs in the scrap pile.

87 and 89 49ers. Both Montana and Young played great in those seasons.

They both did-- but that doesn't change how impressive Montana's numbers were in only 13 starts both seasons.

Another note: with Brady as his QB, Moss broke Jerry Rice's single season receiving TD record in 2007 by catching 23 TD's. Rice caught 22 in '87 (a MUCH tougher era for that sort of thing, as has been proven again and again)...

...and he did it in only 12 games.

[elmouse03]

A look at another year gave the same bizarre results. Pro Football Reference's 1987 "Passing Offense" rankings...

1) Miami: 57.9% cmp / 29 TDs / 20 INTs / 6.8 Y/A / 258.4 Y/G / 81.0 passer rating / 13 sacks allowed

2) SF: 64.5% cmp / 44 TDs / 14 TDs / 7.9 Y/A / 250.0 Y/G / 106.2 passer rating / 29 sacks allowed



The 49ers were the #1 offense in the league in 1987 and 1989, for the record. I don't think I even need to look at another year to conclude that this statistic belongs in the scrap pile.

87 and 89 49ers. Both Montana and Young played great in those seasons.

They both did-- but that doesn't change how impressive Montana's numbers were in only 13 starts both seasons.

Another note: with Brady as his QB, Moss broke Jerry Rice's single season receiving TD record in 2007 by catching 23 TD's. Rice caught 22 in '87 (a MUCH tougher era for that sort of thing, as has been proven again and again)...

...and he did it in only 12 games.

Rice caught his 22 in just 12 games. Probably ends up with near 30 in a full 16.

[Da Stars.]

Thanks Rob for the numbers. I was out gambling instead of trying to do that. Yes I won a couple hundred.

[rileymartin]

Sorry kids, but there is just zero chance that this Brady character will ever be as good as Joe Cool...

Montana STILL the greatest ever...

[Deez]

Brady GOAT. Criley you are retarded for a reason

[Da Stars.]

Brady GOAT. Criley you are retarded for a reason

If Brady comes back and wins this game, he will be the Goat. Right now Montana is.

[3effs]

This game isn't over. And losing this game wouldn't eliminate Brady from the conversation anyways.

[rileymartin]

This game isn't over. And losing this game wouldn't eliminate Brady from the conversation anyways.

Brady has never really been in contention...He has always been playing for 2nd place. IF Brady didn't play in the most QB coddled era in the history of this game, he would be barely above average. If he had to take the punishment Joe Cool had to take, he simply wouldn't even be in the conversation.
Conversely, if Joe Cool enjoyed the protections from the rules that Brady gets, he might have won 10 superbowls...

[3effs]

Win or lose, Brady has cemented himself as the best ever with this game. It's not a question anymore.

[Y2K]

Sorry kids, but there is just zero chance that this Brady character will ever be as good as Joe Cool...

Montana STILL the greatest ever...

It's okay to be a Montana fan and admit that Brady can pass him for the top QB of all time.

[rileymartin]

Win or lose, Brady has cemented himself as the best ever with this game. It's not a question anymore.

Nope. Montana still the greatest...He didn't need stupid coaching by the opposition to have a chance to win. Brady is simply the benefactor of some of the worst play calling not just in NFL history, but football history in general. as bad as Caroll fucked it up by not giving the ball to Beast Mode, Quinn and Shanahan may have just made some of the worst coaching decision in the history of the sport.

[Deez]

Huge Niners fan but Brady is GOAT. End of discussion

[Robceltsfan]

Definitely the GOAT.