What would these greats of yore stat lines look like in today's NBA ?

[kobeunderbite]

Most pro players make terrible analysts and cling to their glory days, defending their eras to the last breath because they can't find fulfillment in life after their pro career ends. There is a lot of bitterness there. This was a particularly sad case that I read about recently: https://nypost.com/2018/02/12/outspoken ... kees-camp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AlaskaHawks]

Jordan in 2018:
40/11/9 on 56%

LeBron in 1993:
3/0/1 on 15%

WOW!

[Master Spade]

Wait. I thought you said the rules after 2000 were what made scoring go up dramatically? But with those rules Duncan had his worst shooting and Kobe did too?

Facts are facts. Defensive ratings are in line with historic norms including when the Bad Boy Pistons were piling up body bags according to some of the loons here. You want to fall for silly hyperbole because it feeds your agenda, I can't help you.

Dumars was the architect of that Defense. Plus he played against those players. So his opinion is prized. He should know. With what he did know, they shut down those 2 players. But according to him, it would be impossible to contain Jordan based on today's game rules. His opinion, based on everything he knows. I'll take his word for it.

As for hyperbole and things that feed agenda, you only commented on what fed your hyperbole. The Irony.

You'll take his word for it because of the agenda you carry because it lines up with your extreme pro MJ bias.

What's my agenda. I answered the OP. I gave my opinion on every guy that was asked. I said MJ up small ppg with better efficiency. Bird up a little more. KAJ and Hakeem down some because they'd see fewer touches in a three point dominated league, Wilt down the most in part because of pace with Magic the hardest to figure out.

You? You ignored everyone except MJ and not only claimed his points and efficiency would jump dramatically to 42 ppg and 57%, but that his assists and rebounds would magically explode so that he would average 11 and 10 of those. I think it's pretty obvious who has an agenda and also has his head firmly up his ass but without the self awareness to recognize it.

When I said 42 ppg on 57% for Jordan, I was being conservative when compared to what others like Phil Jackson said.

As for other players, let's see how individual players stats were affected by these rule changes. If the players of Jordan's era were so weak, they should have a decrease in production going up against the "advanced" era that came after Jordan - or so Lebron fanboys claim. Note, I'm not saying you.

Someone like Gary Paytonis known for his Defense, but let's look at his offense.

1) Gary Payton
In his prime, 1995-1999

6th season - 19.3 ppg + 7.5 apg (Age 27) - won DPOY, led 1996 Sonics to the Finals where they won 2 games against the 72-10 Bulls.
7th season - 21.8 ppg + 7.1 apg (Age 28)
8th season - 19.2 ppg + 8.3 apg (Age 29)
9th season - 21.7 ppg + 8.7 apg (Age 30)

a past prime Payton for 4 years post 98-99 rule changes had

10th season - 24.2 ppg + 8.9 apg (age 31) - 99-00 season - first season without handchecking)
11th season - 23.1 ppg + 8.1 apg (Age 32)
12th season - 22.1 ppg + 9.0 apg (Age 33)
13th season - 20.4 ppg + 8.3 apg (Age 34)

Payton's FG% increased every year from his 9th season to his 12th season, with only a 1.3% decrease in his 13th season. And remember, this is an older and Past his Prime Payton, so his stats should have decreased. But those rules sure did help. This happened with most players, even for players not known as "Scorers" . Notice what year the stats truly made a change? Yup, when the Rules were changed for offense.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Dumars was the architect of that Defense. Plus he played against those players. So his opinion is prized. He should know. With what he did know, they shut down those 2 players. But according to him, it would be impossible to contain Jordan based on today's game rules. His opinion, based on everything he knows. I'll take his word for it.

As for hyperbole and things that feed agenda, you only commented on what fed your hyperbole. The Irony.

You'll take his word for it because of the agenda you carry because it lines up with your extreme pro MJ bias.

What's my agenda. I answered the OP. I gave my opinion on every guy that was asked. I said MJ up small ppg with better efficiency. Bird up a little more. KAJ and Hakeem down some because they'd see fewer touches in a three point dominated league, Wilt down the most in part because of pace with Magic the hardest to figure out.

You? You ignored everyone except MJ and not only claimed his points and efficiency would jump dramatically to 42 ppg and 57%, but that his assists and rebounds would magically explode so that he would average 11 and 10 of those. I think it's pretty obvious who has an agenda and also has his head firmly up his ass but without the self awareness to recognize it.

When I said 42 ppg on 57% for Jordan, I was being conservative when compared to what others like Phil Jackson said.

As for other players, let's see how individual players stats were affected by these rule changes. If the players of Jordan's era were so weak, they should have a decrease in production going up against the "advanced" era that came after Jordan - or so Lebron fanboys claim. Note, I'm not saying you.

Someone like Gary Paytonis known for his Defense, but let's look at his offense.

1) Gary Payton
In his prime, 1995-1999

6th season - 19.3 ppg + 7.5 apg (Age 27) - won DPOY, led 1996 Sonics to the Finals where they won 2 games against the 72-10 Bulls.
7th season - 21.8 ppg + 7.1 apg (Age 28)
8th season - 19.2 ppg + 8.3 apg (Age 29)
9th season - 21.7 ppg + 8.7 apg (Age 30)

a past prime Payton for 4 years post 98-99 rule changes had

10th season - 24.2 ppg + 8.9 apg (age 31) - 99-00 season - first season without handchecking)
11th season - 23.1 ppg + 8.1 apg (Age 32)
12th season - 22.1 ppg + 9.0 apg (Age 33)
13th season - 20.4 ppg + 8.3 apg (Age 34)

Payton's FG% increased every year from his 9th season to his 12th season, with only a 1.3% decrease in his 13th season. And remember, this is an older and Past his Prime Payton, so his stats should have decreased. But those rules sure did help. This happened with most players, even for players not known as "Scorers" . Notice what year the stats truly made a change? Yup, when the Rules were changed for offense.

Average defensive rating in 98-99 was 102.2. Average defensive rating in 99-00 was 104.1. Average defensive rating in 96-97 was 107.6 Average defensive rating in 90-91 was 107.9. Average defensive rating in 86-87 was 108.3.

Fast forward. Average defensive rating in 2005-2006 was 106.2. Average defensive rating in 2011-2012 was 104.6. Average defensive rating in 2015-16 was 106.4. Average defensive rating this season is 108.5.

Next.

[Master Spade]

4) Chris Webber
In his first 6 seasons, never reached 22 ppg for a full season.

2nd season - 20.1 ppg
3rd season - 23.7 ppg (but he only played 15 games due to injury)
4th season - 20.1 ppg
5th season - 21.9 ppg
6th season - 20.0 ppg (98-99 season)
Then after the post-Jordan rule changes...

7th season - 24.5 ppg after the removal of handchecking (1999-00).
8th season - 27 ppg
9th season - 24.5 ppg
10th season - 23 ppg

Webber averaged 23+ for four straight seasons in the "advanced/more skilled" post-Jordan era of defense, after NEVER averaging 22 pts for a full season in 6 years against the "weak" Jordan era defenses.

It is also interesting to note that Webber's highest apg season was in 02/03. Between 99/00 to 04/05, his 7th and 12th season, he averaged 4.7 apg combined over those seasons. He had never averaged 4.7 apg since his 2nd (4.7 apg) and 3rd (5.0 apg) seasons, but remember that his 3rd season ended after only 15 games.

[vcsgrizzfan]

4) Chris Webber
In his first 6 seasons, never reached 22 ppg for a full season.

2nd season - 20.1 ppg
3rd season - 23.7 ppg (but he only played 15 games due to injury)
4th season - 20.1 ppg
5th season - 21.9 ppg
6th season - 20.0 ppg (98-99 season)
Then after the post-Jordan rule changes...

7th season - 24.5 ppg after the removal of handchecking (1999-00).
8th season - 27 ppg
9th season - 24.5 ppg
10th season - 23 ppg

Webber averaged 23+ for four straight seasons in the "advanced/more skilled" post-Jordan era of defense, after NEVER averaging 22 pts for a full season in 6 years against the "weak" Jordan era defenses.

It is also interesting to note that Webber's highest apg season was in 02/03. Between 99/00 to 04/05, his 7th and 12th season, he averaged 4.7 apg combined over those seasons. He had never averaged 4.7 apg since his 2nd (4.7 apg) and 3rd (5.0 apg) seasons, but remember that his 3rd season ended after only 15 games.

Let's conveniently ignore that he went from Washington to a significantly better Sacramento team in that exact time frame and let's also ignore that his efficiency went way down for the few extra points. Makes sense.

Intellectually dishonest much?

Edit: and similarly, Payton's effective shooting percentage went down significantly for the few extra points from your prior post.

Explain to me why defensive ratings were lower in the years after 2000 that you are referencing than through the bulk of MJ's career? That's a global number that takes everything under account and is simply how many points did you give up per 100 possessions.

[Master Spade]

4) Chris Webber
In his first 6 seasons, never reached 22 ppg for a full season.

2nd season - 20.1 ppg
3rd season - 23.7 ppg (but he only played 15 games due to injury)
4th season - 20.1 ppg
5th season - 21.9 ppg
6th season - 20.0 ppg (98-99 season)
Then after the post-Jordan rule changes...

7th season - 24.5 ppg after the removal of handchecking (1999-00).
8th season - 27 ppg
9th season - 24.5 ppg
10th season - 23 ppg

Webber averaged 23+ for four straight seasons in the "advanced/more skilled" post-Jordan era of defense, after NEVER averaging 22 pts for a full season in 6 years against the "weak" Jordan era defenses.

It is also interesting to note that Webber's highest apg season was in 02/03. Between 99/00 to 04/05, his 7th and 12th season, he averaged 4.7 apg combined over those seasons. He had never averaged 4.7 apg since his 2nd (4.7 apg) and 3rd (5.0 apg) seasons, but remember that his 3rd season ended after only 15 games.

Let's conveniently ignore that he went from Washington to a significantly better Sacramento team in that exact time frame and let's also ignore that his efficiency went way down for the few extra points. Makes sense.

Intellectually dishonest much?

Edit: and similarly, Payton's effective shooting percentage went down significantly for the few extra points from your prior post.

Explain to me why defensive ratings were lower in the years after 2000 that you are referencing than through the bulk of MJ's career? That's a global number that takes everything under account and is simply how many points did you give up per 100 possessions.

You seem to be doing alot of "Convenient ignoring".

Fact is, the rules make it easier for players to boost their offensive stats. Period. I have given proof of that. But......you are trying to change the goal posts from players stats to team stats. I'll post proof about Reggie Miller next. More info/proof for you to ignore.

[Master Spade]

34, 35, and 36 year old Reggie Miller also exposed the bum defenses of the post-Jordan era in the 2000, 2001 and 2002 playoffs. There's a reason he couldn't make the Finals in the 90s even with a Pacers team with great interior defense with prime and/or healthy Smits, Antonio and Dale Davis, and Derrick McKey, but still made it to the 2000 Finals with no Antonio Davis (replaced by Austin Croshere), Smits in the last year of his career, and with Derrick McKey also at the tail end of his. In the 99/00, 00/01, and 01/02 seasons, a multitude of rule changes were added that would eventually lead to the complete removal of handchecking and defensive contact in 04/05, as well as the defensive 3 seconds rule to open up the lane in 01/02.

Reggie Miller (Age 34) had a real bad game in Game 1 against the Lakers of 7 points on 1/16 shooting in the 2000 Finals, and after that point he dropped 28 ppg on 48% in Games 2-6 vs the Lakers (Number 1 Defensive Rating) and outplayed Kobe offensively in every game that Kobe played aside from Game 1, including Reggie dropping 35 in Game 4. In his 4 full games of play, Kobe averaged 19 ppg on 37% against the weak and washed up 2000 Pacers team in the Finals.

Reggie Miller (Age 35) dropped 31.3 ppg on 46% on the 2001 Sixers team with a top 5 defense, and Hall of Fame coach Larry Brown that coached the 2004 Pistons defense. This Sixers team made the Finals during the 2001 playoffs. The new and weaker defensive rules enabled 35 year old Miller to also drop his career playoff high 41 points on the top 5 defense Sixers in Game 2.

Reggie Miller (Age 36) in the 2002 playoffs dropped 23.6 ppg on 51% against the Nets team (Number 1 Defensive Rating) that made the Finals in 2002, and pushed them to 5 games no less (when a first-round series was best of 5). This Nets team would go on to lock down Paul Pierce to 36% shooting in the ECF, after he averaged 26 ppg on 44% for the 2001/02 season.

A 34, 35, 36 year old washed up Reggie Miller lit up 3 playoffs teams in 3 consecutive years, all of whom made the Finals and had at least a top 5 defense, thanks to weakened rule changes. Despite only averaging above 23 ppg once in his entire career, all the way back in 1989/90, he averaged over 23 ppg in three straight playoff series against three top 5 defenses in the post-Jordan era, thanks to the weakened rule changes. Not only that, but he was able to make the Finals for the only time in his career thanks to the watered down bum competition that came after Jordan's era, even though his 2000 Pacers team was far weaker than it was in the 90s.

[vcsgrizzfan]

34, 35, and 36 year old Reggie Miller also exposed the bum defenses of the post-Jordan era in the 2000, 2001 and 2002 playoffs. There's a reason he couldn't make the Finals in the 90s even with a Pacers team with great interior defense with prime and/or healthy Smits, Antonio and Dale Davis, and Derrick McKey, but still made it to the 2000 Finals with no Antonio Davis (replaced by Austin Croshere), Smits in the last year of his career, and with Derrick McKey also at the tail end of his. In the 99/00, 00/01, and 01/02 seasons, a multitude of rule changes were added that would eventually lead to the complete removal of handchecking and defensive contact in 04/05, as well as the defensive 3 seconds rule to open up the lane in 01/02.

Reggie Miller (Age 34) had a real bad game in Game 1 against the Lakers of 7 points on 1/16 shooting in the 2000 Finals, and after that point he dropped 28 ppg on 48% in Games 2-6 vs the Lakers (Number 1 Defensive Rating) and outplayed Kobe offensively in every game that Kobe played aside from Game 1, including Reggie dropping 35 in Game 4. In his 4 full games of play, Kobe averaged 19 ppg on 37% against the weak and washed up 2000 Pacers team in the Finals.

Reggie Miller (Age 35) dropped 31.3 ppg on 46% on the 2001 Sixers team with a top 5 defense, and Hall of Fame coach Larry Brown that coached the 2004 Pistons defense. This Sixers team made the Finals during the 2001 playoffs. The new and weaker defensive rules enabled 35 year old Miller to also drop his career playoff high 41 points on the top 5 defense Sixers in Game 2.

Reggie Miller (Age 36) in the 2002 playoffs dropped 23.6 ppg on 51% against the Nets team (Number 1 Defensive Rating) that made the Finals in 2002, and pushed them to 5 games no less (when a first-round series was best of 5). This Nets team would go on to lock down Paul Pierce to 36% shooting in the ECF, after he averaged 26 ppg on 44% for the 2001/02 season.

A 34, 35, 36 year old washed up Reggie Miller lit up 3 playoffs teams in 3 consecutive years, all of whom made the Finals and had at least a top 5 defense, thanks to weakened rule changes. Despite only averaging above 23 ppg once in his entire career, all the way back in 1989/90, he averaged over 23 ppg in three straight playoff series against three top 5 defenses in the post-Jordan era, thanks to the weakened rule changes. Not only that, but he was able to make the Finals for the only time in his career thanks to the watered down bum competition that came after Jordan's era, even though his 2000 Pacers team was far weaker than it was in the 90s.

Good for Reggie. That's nice. I'm heading out to dinner soon, but basically all I can say is who cares? I already debunked your Webber and Payton examples. At least those were for seasons, not a few playoff series.

Meanwhile, the league has lower defensive ratings than throughout MJs career and you keep running from that pesky fact. Teams were giving up about 3 points more per 100 possessions on average during MJs career than through the period you keep referencing in the early 2000s. That's a really pesky fact you keep running from.

If you could take MJ's knob out of your mouth for a minute, you might recognize the ridiculous bias you have shown throughout this thread.

Points per 100 possessions didn't suddenly explode. They were actually below prior years that MJ played until around 2006 when handcheck enforcement took off. Still now, defensive ratings fluctuate a little year to year but are on average less than during MJ's career since 2000. It's a pesky fact!

[FPL]

Magic seems to be the guy people have the most varied opinions about.

Wilt

I'm an admitted Wilt hater. His role his first few years was unsustainable, and had poor team results (the league was also mostly white until the mid-60s, and unlike Russell, Wilt's athleticism was more of the straight line variety, as in end-to-end, high vert; he wasn't mobile in the half court, or someone who could make second jumps, or who had lateral quickness). He also just wasn't a skilled low-post player (most of his baskets were at the rim or in transition, or on putbacks). On a bad team he could put up 30 (on <.500, kind of like a Cousins). On a good team? In his prime:

18/15/5 on .600 shooting (a better Marc Gasol before the 3)

as a defensive roleplayer later on:

10/15/3 on .700 shooting (a bigger DeAndre Jordan)

I liked the writeup Ben Taylor did on Wilt. I haven't read his book, but he said Wilt is pretty much *the* case study in individual vs. global offense (i.e.- extremely strong on the former, but surprisingly modest on the second).

He also said Wilt was very underrated defensively, which makes sense to me. Overrated offensively, underrated defensively.

This is probably something I agree with. Even though today has become more about mobility, versatility and willingness to contest on the defensive end, there is still a premium on elite rim protection. Let's not forget, a complete stiff in Roy Hibbert (who was about Wilt's size) anchored a defense that lapped the league multiple years running.

[Master Spade]

Karl Malone
14th season - 23.8 ppg + 4.1 apg (98-99 MVP season, Age 35)
then rule changes happened

15th season - 25.5 ppg + 3.7 apg (Age 36)
even at age 36, in a season that he didn't win MVP, his scoring and efficiency were higher than he was at age 35 and won the MVP

16th season - 23.2 ppg + 4.5 apg (Age 37) - That's only 0.6 pts less than his 98/99 MVP season before the rule changes. On top of that, his apg in this season were higher than the apg he put up the in his MVP season during 98/99, in the "weak" era of 90s defense.

Even at age 37 and far past his prime, he hardly experienced a decrease in his production going against the "advanced and athletically superior" defenders of the 2000s. The 2000s "advanced, athletically superior" era is so weak that a 37 year old past prime Karl Malone has practically the same scoring and efficiency that he did 2 years earlier in his MVP season, and with even more apg.

Grant Hill
Never reached 21.5 ppg in his first 5 seasons

3rd season - 21.4 ppg
4th season - 21.1 ppg
5th season - 21.1 ppg (98-99 season)
Suddenly, after the removal of hand checking in 99-00

6th season - he magically averaged 25.8 pts. He scored almost 5 ppg less in the "weak, unathletic" era of Jordan compared to the "advanced" 2000s era.

[vcsgrizzfan]

Karl Malone
14th season - 23.8 ppg + 4.1 apg (98-99 MVP season, Age 35)
then rule changes happened

15th season - 25.5 ppg + 3.7 apg (Age 36)
even at age 36, in a season that he didn't win MVP, his scoring and efficiency were higher than he was at age 35 and won the MVP

16th season - 23.2 ppg + 4.5 apg (Age 37) - That's only 0.6 pts less than his 98/99 MVP season before the rule changes. On top of that, his apg in this season were higher than the apg he put up the in his MVP season during 98/99, in the "weak" era of 90s defense.

Even at age 37 and far past his prime, he hardly experienced a decrease in his production going against the "advanced and athletically superior" defenders of the 2000s. The 2000s "advanced, athletically superior" era is so weak that a 37 year old past prime Karl Malone has practically the same scoring and efficiency that he did 2 years earlier in his MVP season, and with even more apg.

Grant Hill
Never reached 21.5 ppg in his first 5 seasons

3rd season - 21.4 ppg
4th season - 21.1 ppg
5th season - 21.1 ppg (98-99 season)
Suddenly, after the removal of hand checking in 99-00

6th season - he magically averaged 25.8 pts. He scored almost 5 ppg less in the "weak, unathletic" era of Jordan compared to the "advanced" 2000s era.

You somehow seem to think you are making valid points. You do realize that players go up and down, take more or less shots etc. And you have used Webber and Malone as examples which is rather humorous, since neither of those could possibly be considered a wing player which is where the advantage is meant to come from. You're going in circles.

You also seem to forget that if someone is scoring a little more, then someone else is scoring a little less by definition if defensive ratings are actually lower than in prior years. It doesn't exactly take a genius to figure this out.

In this entire thread, you have been nothing but a MJ cock gobbler who hasn't made a single valid point but doesn't have the self awareness to realize his biases have completely clouded his ability to think about the issue.

And I also find it somewhat amusing that you are so butt hurt that you feel the need to research a million different players trying to make a point and you still can't. Not even remotely close. First you use two bigs as opposed to wings in Webber and Malone. Then you ignore that the efficiency of the guys you selected all went down, including Malone who's efg% was well below his career averages in the years you reference. As for Grant Hill, he suddenly took 3 more FGAs per game so duh! of course his points went up. And maybe the fact it was his FA contract year might have had something to do with taking a few extra shots and trying to pad a few stats.

I called you a moron. For good reason. You suggested MJ could suddenly score more about a dozen or so more points than he typically did and with a ridiculous improvement in efficiency. You also had his rebounds and assists magically growing exponentially. That is the stuff of morons and you earned the moniker in spades (pardon the delicious pun) for that take. Unfortunately for you, rather that just accepting that you made an ass of yourself, you keep trying to double down.

[Bush4Ever35]

It's not particularly reasonable to suspect Jordan would see a *true* 31ish percent increase in scoring and 50+ percent increase in rebounding and assists.

That type of improvement basically never happens in sports when you are at the extreme high end of performance to begin with.

About the only example I can think of in sports history is Barry Bonds's 01-04 seasons.

[vcsgrizzfan]

It's not particularly reasonable to suspect Jordan would see a *true* 31ish percent increase in scoring and 50+ percent increase in rebounding and assists.

That type of improvement basically never happens in sports when you are at the extreme high end of performance to begin with.

About the only example I can think of in sports history is Barry Bonds's 01-04 seasons.

Way to go out on a limb there Bush!

[FPL]

Here is part of why I doubt players would score a ton. Take a look at MJ's scoring by quarter (92 is the first year I have data for, team record in games played in parentheses):

92 586/617/684/487 (67-13)
93 671/553/718/570 (56-22)
96 684/580/690/523 (72-10)
97 679/629/615/500 (69-13)
98 662/526/590/548 (62-20)

Jordan is the most clutch ever (based on game tracking and such), yet these would paint a different picture if you looked at period scoring. Why is MJ's 4th quarter scoring in 92, 96, 97 lower than the other quarters by a ton? Because a lot of games were over by that point. By comparison, in 93 and in 98, the teams were not as strong, so they were in more games late. I suspect if I had data from his 80s seasons, his scoring would be much higher in 4th quarters.

Look at Hakeem:

92 364/342/385/381 (40-30)
93 619/429/542/544 (55-27)
94 528/504/565/575 (57-23)
95 528/448/551/451 (44-28)
96 545/418/496/465 (47-25)
97 446/388/494/450 (54-24)

He didn't play on any 60-win teams, so you don't see the same dropoff, since he was in games late.

How about Shaq:

93 557/397/534/379 (41-40)
94 597/559/655/561 (49-32)
95 616/626/589/469 (55-24)
96 394/356/387/286 (40-14)
97 379/335/338/276 (38-13)
98 416/491/432/345 (46-14)
99 384/356/298/251 (31-18)
00 605/610/600/516 (66-13)
01 570/539/519/484 (51-23)
02 503/505/451/352 (51-16)
03 555/382/486/402 (45-22)
04 374/334/403/309 (49-18)
05 434/384/441/392 (53-20)
06 350/263/303/254 (42-17)

Similar pattern emerges. I could do this for a bunch of guys, and it's not exactly a 1:1 relationship, but you can see it there. I want to look at Curry last:

13 437/451/421/459 (45-33)
14 457/424/527/447 (50-28)
15 596/361/570/361 (67-13)
16 736/437/776/397 (71-8)
17 654/354/714/266 (65-14)

So the better your team is, the fewer fourth quarters you're going to play. Actually if you're really good, you aren't going to score a lot in the second quarter a lot either.

No matter how good the guys in the OP are, if you're on a good team, and are up 20 going into the fourth quarter constantly, there's not much incentive as your coach to play your best scorer. So the 30 ppg marker becomes harder to reach over a full regular season.

[vcsgrizzfan]

FPL. That makes a lot of sense. If you think about it, a lot of really great statistical seasons were put together on teams that weren't that good so that their stars got a lot more minutes and had a lot more responsibility to score. On really good teams, they get fewer minutes and aren't needed to carry that big a burden.

[Sudanese Sensation]

It is always good to be cautious when evaluating a player who puts up good numbers on a bad team.


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