xer0 wrote:
You are who I was talking about, and you are DEAD wrong about it. you think your opinion matters more than others but it doesn't, you're just a smug dickknob.
I'm definitely smug. Guilty as charged. And you've got a shitty basketball IQ. Isiah gets more than his fair share of credit for the Pistons' success. They had a ridiculously deep frontcourt and a very UNDERRATED Joe Dumars.
I think that you are serious and you don't know what the bruck you are talking about and yet have the nerve to judge other posters.
What do you say about Bird, Magic, Russell, Bron, etc and their help?
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
I'm definitely smug. Guilty as charged. And you've got a shitty basketball IQ. Isiah gets more than his fair share of credit for the Pistons' success. They had a ridiculously deep frontcourt and a very UNDERRATED Joe Dumars.
I think that you are serious and you don't know what the bruck you are talking about and yet have the nerve to judge other posters.
What do you say about Bird, Magic, Russell, Bron, etc and their help?
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
I do not agree with this post.
You can break down the other players that I suggested the same way. You said nothing really.
Smelters wrote:
I think that you are serious and you don't know what the bruck you are talking about and yet have the nerve to judge other posters.
What do you say about Bird, Magic, Russell, Bron, etc and their help?
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
I do not agree with this post.
You can break down the other players that I suggested the same way. You said nothing really.
Don't confuse me with someone who would ever give a shit about your opinion. There are many here who's opinions I respect and give me pause if they disagree with me. Not you. Definitely not you.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
I do not agree with this post.
You can break down the other players that I suggested the same way. You said nothing really.
Don't confuse me with someone who would ever give a shit about your opinion. There are many here who's opinions I respect and give me pause if they disagree with me. Not you. Definitely not you.
Isn't Isiah a top 50 player? The only player on that team to make the top 50? I didn't even like him like that but you are straight trippin'.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
I'm definitely smug. Guilty as charged. And you've got a shitty basketball IQ. Isiah gets more than his fair share of credit for the Pistons' success. They had a ridiculously deep frontcourt and a very UNDERRATED Joe Dumars.
I think that you are serious and you don't know what the bruck you are talking about and yet have the nerve to judge other posters.
What do you say about Bird, Magic, Russell, Bron, etc and their help?
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
Become overrated?
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
Smelters wrote:
I think that you are serious and you don't know what the bruck you are talking about and yet have the nerve to judge other posters.
What do you say about Bird, Magic, Russell, Bron, etc and their help?
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
Become overrated?
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
Uh.... I did watch him play, and I wasn't in diapers and understood what I was watching. Find another angle.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
Become overrated?
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
Uh.... I did watch him play, and I wasn't in diapers and understood what I was watching. Find another angle.
Those are harsh words for Abe now. Neva have I read a post like that from you directed at Abe.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
Become overrated?
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
Uh.... I did watch him play, and I wasn't in diapers and understood what I was watching. Find another angle.
Last edited by AbeVigodaLive on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
Become overrated?
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
Uh.... I did watch him play, and I wasn't in diapers and understood what I was watching. Find another angle.
Isiah put up 20 and 10 consistently for 4-5 years until his numbers dropped a little when more talent came and with Chuck Daly changing the culture in Detroit.
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
Uh.... I did watch him play, and I wasn't in diapers and understood what I was watching. Find another angle.
Those are harsh words for Abe now. Neva have I read a post like that from you directed at Abe.
I've been posting on message boards about hoops since 1999 on ESPN. I have had the very same take about Thomas forever. It's NEVER changed. I resent the implication it's from recently available statistics.
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
Uh.... I did watch him play, and I wasn't in diapers and understood what I was watching. Find another angle.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Uh.... I did watch him play, and I wasn't in diapers and understood what I was watching. Find another angle.
Those are harsh words for Abe now. Neva have I read a post like that from you directed at Abe.
I've been posting on message boards about hoops since 1999 on ESPN. I have had the very same take about Thomas forever. It's NEVER changed. I resent the implication it's from recently available statistics.
I didn't say your take was all about statistics. Obviously, you did see him play. I think it is only about stats with many others though.
Da Stars. wrote:
Those are harsh words for Abe now. Neva have I read a post like that from you directed at Abe.
I've been posting on message boards about hoops since 1999 on ESPN. I have had the very same take about Thomas forever. It's NEVER changed. I resent the implication it's from recently available statistics.
I didn't say your take was all about statistics. Obviously, you did see him play. I think it is only about stats with many others though.
Everything isn't only about you.
I could say the same about you Abe. You condemned an entire thread I posted in recently because you took umbrage to my interpretation of your take. You know what I'm talking about. Everyone, including you, was textbook on the take I predicted but you focused exclusively on yourself and got a pickle up your ass about it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt on your take, but you were entirely focused on your own take to the exclusion of everything else in what must have been a ten page thread where you were a peripheral player.
Da Stars. wrote:
Those are harsh words for Abe now. Neva have I read a post like that from you directed at Abe.
I've been posting on message boards about hoops since 1999 on ESPN. I have had the very same take about Thomas forever. It's NEVER changed. I resent the implication it's from recently available statistics.
I didn't say your take was all about statistics. Obviously, you did see him play. I think it is only about stats with many others though.
Everything isn't only about you.
Grizz owned by Abe. Grizz is so full of himself that he can't think properly
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
I've been posting on message boards about hoops since 1999 on ESPN. I have had the very same take about Thomas forever. It's NEVER changed. I resent the implication it's from recently available statistics.
I didn't say your take was all about statistics. Obviously, you did see him play. I think it is only about stats with many others though.
Everything isn't only about you.
I could say the same about you Abe. You condemned an entire thread I posted in recently because you took umbrage to my interpretation of your take. You know what I'm talking about. Everyone, including you, was textbook on the take I predicted but you focused exclusively on yourself and got a pickle up your ass about it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt on your take, but you were entirely focused on your own take to the exclusion of everything else in what must have been a ten page thread where you were a peripheral player.
Stop. You have never been more wrong than your assumption in that thread. And you're still barking about it? Get over it. Accept that you were wrong... miserably and completely wrong.
I know you're a successful dude. And you're smart. And you're generally an all-around pretty damn solid bloke. But you aren't infallible.
Even though you're acting like it right now... and even more in that other thread.
[Note: True spit. Go reread that thread if you're still hung up on it. I think you'll come away with a different take now that you're more removed from it.]
Smelters wrote:
I think that you are serious and you don't know what the bruck you are talking about and yet have the nerve to judge other posters.
What do you say about Bird, Magic, Russell, Bron, etc and their help?
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
Become overrated?
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
That's a nice spin Abe.... except the criticism of his advanced metrics have very little if any to do with him sacrificing personal stats for the good of the team. Isaiah Thomas became a very inefficient scorer even for his own era. Top that with his putrid defense and higher turnover rate. I didn't respect Zeke back then because I thought he was a bush-league player but that's not going to stop me from giving him credit. He was a great talent that had some great years and was the driving force behind those great piston teams. He is not in the category with Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Larry Bird.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Almost no one ever wins without much help. The examples are rare when it's "mostly" a collective though without a clear best player. The 2004 Pistons whose best player was Ben Wallace is an example. The Sonics with a collection of really good players including Dennis Johnson, Jack Sikma etc... are another. I think the Pistons in the Isiah era were more like that than most who worship Isiah care to admit. Their frontcourt was ridiculously deep and included Laimbeer, Rodman, Aguirre, Salley.. the aforementioned extremely underrated Dumars who was a far, far better defender than Thomas, microwave Johnson as a bench scorer etc...
I'm not going to suggest Thomas was a stiff. But he has definitely become overrated.
Become overrated?
I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.
Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.
(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)
That's a nice spin Abe.... except the criticism of his advanced metrics have very little if any to do with him sacrificing personal stats for the good of the team. Isaiah Thomas became a very inefficient scorer even for his own era. Top that with his putrid defense and higher turnover rate. I didn't respect Zeke back then because I thought he was a bush-league player but that's not going to stop me from giving him credit. He was a great talent that had some great years and was the driving force behind those great piston teams. He is not in the category with Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Larry Bird.
Wait. Who ever said he was... besides the OP.
And nobody takes the OP seriously. I even refuted his take. I thought we moved on to a more honest Thomas take. I firmly believe he should still be in the discussion with the likes of Frazier and Stockton and that lot.
