kinda feel sorry for Isiah Thomas. he should be a top 10 player ever ahead of lebron

[Y2K]

Become overrated?

I think a case can definitely be made for him being overrated 10,15 or 25 years ago... but I can't think of a former star player more disparaged than Thomas in the advanced metrics era. Guys who never saw him play... guys who never saw him sacrifice stats/touches for the good of the team... only look at the numbers.

Isiah Thomas is only behind Russell in the "you had to have seen him live, stats don't do him justice" camp. Overrated by today's fan? I think he's on his way to being underrated.



(Note: Example... ask anybody who didn't see them play who was better... Stockton or Thomas? It's not as simple as the stats at basketball reference.)

That's a nice spin Abe.... except the criticism of his advanced metrics have very little if any to do with him sacrificing personal stats for the good of the team. Isaiah Thomas became a very inefficient scorer even for his own era. Top that with his putrid defense and higher turnover rate. I didn't respect Zeke back then because I thought he was a bush-league player but that's not going to stop me from giving him credit. He was a great talent that had some great years and was the driving force behind those great piston teams. He is not in the category with Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Larry Bird.

Wait. Who ever said he was... besides the OP.

And nobody takes the OP seriously. I even refuted his take. I thought we moved on to a more honest Thomas take. I firmly believe he should still be in the discussion with the likes of Frazier and Stockton and that lot.

In my opinion, he never left that discussion....outside of others remember him as being superior to Stockton, which wasn't the case at all.

[dwcmwa]

Isiah is not top 10, but there's no question he's better than LeBron.

The difference between the two, is simply the amount of uninformed LeTots......... who place the Bronze man as the GOAT, Top 5 and Top 10.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Isiah would own 5 rings if he pulled a LeBitch, and ran-chicken to the Bulls in 1991... that would have made him a Top 10 player for sure.

[AbeVigodaLive]

That's a nice spin Abe.... except the criticism of his advanced metrics have very little if any to do with him sacrificing personal stats for the good of the team. Isaiah Thomas became a very inefficient scorer even for his own era. Top that with his putrid defense and higher turnover rate. I didn't respect Zeke back then because I thought he was a bush-league player but that's not going to stop me from giving him credit. He was a great talent that had some great years and was the driving force behind those great piston teams. He is not in the category with Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Larry Bird.

Wait. Who ever said he was... besides the OP.

And nobody takes the OP seriously. I even refuted his take. I thought we moved on to a more honest Thomas take. I firmly believe he should still be in the discussion with the likes of Frazier and Stockton and that lot.

In my opinion, he never left that discussion....outside of others remember him as being superior to Stockton, which wasn't the case at all.

Only trolls and idiots are putting Isiah Thomas in the same conversation as Magic, Jordan, James and Bird. All are Top 10 talents ever... statistically, accolades, anecdotally.

Thomas isn't remotely near them with stats, accolades, anecdotally, et al.

Except for Griff and Dwcma as far as I can tell. Do we really give those two troll that much clout around here? I don't. I mostly ignore their basketball takes for good reason after all this time.

[Robceltsfan]

Where did we rank Isiah on AG's 2 lists? (all-time & post-merger)

[elmerjfudd]

Where did we rank Isiah on AG's 2 lists? (all-time & post-merger)

I didn't look for the post merger thread but the first list he didn't even make top 20. I have him above Stockton but he didn't finish above Stockton on that list.

[Robceltsfan]

Where did we rank Isiah on AG's 2 lists? (all-time & post-merger)

I didn't look for the post merger thread but the first list he didn't even make top 20. I have him above Stockton but he didn't finish above Stockton on that list.

I think that's fair, to be honest. I simply don't see how anyone could honestly make a case for him to be anywhere near the top 10.

[Lonzo_Ball]

isiah thomas is the leader of one of the most iconic teams of all time that won 2 championships ( should have been 3 )

he was the best player on his team for a long time


john stockton was never the best player on his own team. never truly came close to winning a title.

the 90s jazz aren't iconic in any way.

stock never averaged over 20/10... isiah did it 4 times

all he has over zeke is career totals due to thomas having a career ending injury at age 32


its not really that close. i've always had thomas around my top 18-22.... stockton more around my top 25-30


nash isn't even in the stratosphere... a career choker. never even made a finals. basically a 3 year prime... vastly overrated mvp seasons where he played with one of the deepest team in the league and took advantage of d'antonis fast paced style to rack up insane assist numbers

nash was afraid to be the man and deferred allot instead of taking charge like isiah would

nash was the worst defensive player in nba history. zeke and stockton were great


out of PG's i'd pick to be on my team

#1 Magic Johnson
#2 Oscar Robertson
#3 Isiah Thomas
#4 John Stockton
#5 Jason Kidd


that south african faggot doesn't even make my top 5


( uncertified by a fellow canadian. how pathetic is that )

[Y2K]

isiah thomas is the leader of one of the most iconic teams of all time that won 2 championships ( should have been 3 )

he was the best player on his team for a long time


john stockton was never the best player on his own team. never truly came close to winning a title.

the 90s jazz aren't iconic in any way.

stock never averaged over 20/10... isiah did it 4 times

all he has over zeke is career totals due to thomas having a career ending injury at age 32


its not really that close. i've always had thomas around my top 18-22.... stockton more around my top 25-30


nash isn't even in the stratosphere... a career choker. never even made a finals. basically a 3 year prime... vastly overrated mvp seasons where he played with one of the deepest team in the league and took advantage of d'antonis fast paced style to rack up insane assist numbers

nash was afraid to be the man and deferred allot instead of taking charge like isiah would

nash was the worst defensive player in nba history. zeke and stockton were great


out of PG's i'd pick to be on my team

#1 Magic Johnson
#2 Oscar Robertson
#3 Isiah Thomas
#4 John Stockton
#5 Jason Kidd


that south african faggot doesn't even make my top 5


( uncertified by a fellow canadian. how pathetic is that )

Pace:

1983-87 Pistons - 104, 105, 105, 106

2005-09 Suns - 96, 96, 96, 97


Try harder my man....

[Lonzo_Ball]

isiah thomas is the leader of one of the most iconic teams of all time that won 2 championships ( should have been 3 )

he was the best player on his team for a long time


john stockton was never the best player on his own team. never truly came close to winning a title.

the 90s jazz aren't iconic in any way.

stock never averaged over 20/10... isiah did it 4 times

all he has over zeke is career totals due to thomas having a career ending injury at age 32


its not really that close. i've always had thomas around my top 18-22.... stockton more around my top 25-30


nash isn't even in the stratosphere... a career choker. never even made a finals. basically a 3 year prime... vastly overrated mvp seasons where he played with one of the deepest team in the league and took advantage of d'antonis fast paced style to rack up insane assist numbers

nash was afraid to be the man and deferred allot instead of taking charge like isiah would

nash was the worst defensive player in nba history. zeke and stockton were great


out of PG's i'd pick to be on my team

#1 Magic Johnson
#2 Oscar Robertson
#3 Isiah Thomas
#4 John Stockton
#5 Jason Kidd


that south african faggot doesn't even make my top 5


( uncertified by a fellow canadian. how pathetic is that )

Pace:

1983-87 Pistons - 104, 105, 105, 106

2005-09 Suns - 96, 96, 96, 97


Try harder my man....

that was the league average at the time. everyone played a fast pace back then which inflated allot of guys assist numbers. it wasn't something one player was doing like nash was to trick mvp voters in 05 and 06

[rileymartin]

Zeke is simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. The TRUE MVP of those Pistons is Chuck Daly and his revolutionary style of defense he employed.

[Smelters]

Zeke is simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. The TRUE MVP of those Pistons is Chuck Daly and his revolutionary style of defense he employed.

You can say that (right place right time) about other athletes also.
Isiah was putting up numbers when he and Kelly Tripucka were the lead dogs in Detroit.

Chuck Daly and the Pistons started going defense with the drafting of Dumars, Rodman, Salley, etc. This hurt Zeke's numbers slightly as the Pistons weren't as explosive offensively.

Isiah had many memorable playoff games and series and was the leader of the 2 time champion Pistons.

He is not on the MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc level but is right under them.

[Lonzo_Ball]

Zeke is simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. The TRUE MVP of those Pistons is Chuck Daly and his revolutionary style of defense he employed.

lebron was in the right place at the right time 7 straight years with hand picked teammates/coaches and he fucked it up more often than not


allot of guys are in a position to win and never do

like nash/stockton for example

nash had the most help in the league from 2005 to 2009 and didn't do jack shit

stockton had the best team in the league multiple times and didn't win shit



thomas on the other hand took out deeper teams with higher ranked all time players with pure grit/toughness/hunger overcoming a lack of size and athleticism in the process

[Robceltsfan]

I mean....we're talking about a guy who was 1st Team All-NBA only 3 times in his career.....only made 5 All-NBA teams period....never finished higher than 5th in the MVP vote....and has advanced metrics placing him more in line with a guy like Reggie Miller than guys in the top 10.

Saying he's top 25 all-time is not a hit against Zeke...

He's just not near the top 10. No way. The Pistons title teams were predicated mostly on defensive prowess....and he was NOT the best defensive player on the floor for Detroit.

[rileymartin]

Zeke is simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. The TRUE MVP of those Pistons is Chuck Daly and his revolutionary style of defense he employed.

You can say that (right place right time) about other athletes also.
Isiah was putting up numbers when he and Kelly Tripucka were the lead dogs in Detroit.

Chuck Daly and the Pistons started going defense with the drafting of Dumars, Rodman, Salley, etc. This hurt Zeke's numbers slightly as the Pistons weren't as explosive offensively.

Isiah had many memorable playoff games and series and was the leader of the 2 time champion Pistons.

He is not on the MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc level but is right under them.

Not really...Guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and even LeBron made their situations the right place because they were that dominant. Thomas was good, but he was simply a piece to the puzzle. The reality is, guys like Mahorn, Dumars, and even Lambeer where every bit as integral as Thomas was in Chuck Daly's system...

[Lonzo_Ball]

I mean....we're talking about a guy who was 1st Team All-NBA only 3 times in his career.....only made 5 All-NBA teams period....never finished higher than 5th in the MVP vote....and has advanced metrics placing him more in line with a guy like Reggie Miller than guys in the top 10.

Saying he's top 25 all-time is not a hit against Zeke...

He's just not near the top 10. No way. The Pistons title teams were predicated mostly on defensive prowess....and he was NOT the best defensive player on the floor for Detroit.

the lack of 1st team awards is due to playing at a time when michael jordan/magic johnson were in the league

and back then there was only 2 all nba teams... plus the achilles rupture that ended his career made it impossible to catch up during the diluted 90s

[AbeVigodaLive]

Zeke is simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. The TRUE MVP of those Pistons is Chuck Daly and his revolutionary style of defense he employed.

You can say that (right place right time) about other athletes also.
Isiah was putting up numbers when he and Kelly Tripucka were the lead dogs in Detroit.

Chuck Daly and the Pistons started going defense with the drafting of Dumars, Rodman, Salley, etc. This hurt Zeke's numbers slightly as the Pistons weren't as explosive offensively.

Isiah had many memorable playoff games and series and was the leader of the 2 time champion Pistons.

He is not on the MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc level but is right under them.

Not really...Guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and even LeBron made their situations the right place because they were that dominant. Thomas was good, but he was simply a piece to the puzzle. The reality is, guys like Mahorn, Dumars, and even Lambeer where every bit as integral as Thomas was in Chuck Daly's system...

The Pistons won one title with Mahorn as a 7/7 guy.
And another title with Mahorn playing in Philadelphia.

And Rick Mahorn actually saw his time/production fall in the playoffs... averaging fewer minutes and only 6/5.

[Lonzo_Ball]

Zeke is simply the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. The TRUE MVP of those Pistons is Chuck Daly and his revolutionary style of defense he employed.

You can say that (right place right time) about other athletes also.
Isiah was putting up numbers when he and Kelly Tripucka were the lead dogs in Detroit.

Chuck Daly and the Pistons started going defense with the drafting of Dumars, Rodman, Salley, etc. This hurt Zeke's numbers slightly as the Pistons weren't as explosive offensively.

Isiah had many memorable playoff games and series and was the leader of the 2 time champion Pistons.

He is not on the MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc level but is right under them.

Not really...Guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and even LeBron made their situations the right place because they were that dominant. Thomas was good, but he was simply a piece to the puzzle. The reality is, guys like Mahorn, Dumars, and even Lambeer where every bit as integral as Thomas was in Chuck Daly's system...

colluding/ring chasing is dominance?

lebron ran to wade/bosh ... then he ran to kyrie


not the other way around you fucking fat old hick

[rileymartin]

You can say that (right place right time) about other athletes also.
Isiah was putting up numbers when he and Kelly Tripucka were the lead dogs in Detroit.

Chuck Daly and the Pistons started going defense with the drafting of Dumars, Rodman, Salley, etc. This hurt Zeke's numbers slightly as the Pistons weren't as explosive offensively.

Isiah had many memorable playoff games and series and was the leader of the 2 time champion Pistons.

He is not on the MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc level but is right under them.

Not really...Guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and even LeBron made their situations the right place because they were that dominant. Thomas was good, but he was simply a piece to the puzzle. The reality is, guys like Mahorn, Dumars, and even Lambeer where every bit as integral as Thomas was in Chuck Daly's system...

Mahorn and Lambeer where the enforcers that did the dirty work...They were the heart and soul of those Piston defenses...

[rileymartin]

You can say that (right place right time) about other athletes also.
Isiah was putting up numbers when he and Kelly Tripucka were the lead dogs in Detroit.

Chuck Daly and the Pistons started going defense with the drafting of Dumars, Rodman, Salley, etc. This hurt Zeke's numbers slightly as the Pistons weren't as explosive offensively.

Isiah had many memorable playoff games and series and was the leader of the 2 time champion Pistons.

He is not on the MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc level but is right under them.

Not really...Guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and even LeBron made their situations the right place because they were that dominant. Thomas was good, but he was simply a piece to the puzzle. The reality is, guys like Mahorn, Dumars, and even Lambeer where every bit as integral as Thomas was in Chuck Daly's system...

The Pistons won one title with Mahorn as a 7/7 guy.
And another title with Mahorn playing in Philadelphia.

And Rick Mahorn actually saw his time/production fall in the playoffs... averaging fewer minutes and only 6/5.

And Zekes production always fell in the playoffs too...lucky to have been in Detroit...They didn't really need him.