This is how weak the 90's NBA was

[kobeunderbite]

[Bush4Ever.]

I can see a 5'3" guy with great athleticism being absolute hell to put the ball on the ground against, especially for taller guards.

IIRC, Steve Smith said on Open Court Muggsy Bogues was the reason he stopped playing PG

Of course, it's traded against being able to shoot over him flat-footed without a contest, but hey...

[zombiesonics]

Look at the boomer cope in the comments. lol

“It shows how tough he was that we was able to make it in the super physical ‘80 and ‘90s!”

‘90s NBA had 5’3” incels starting on playoff teams.

[Bush4Ever.]

It's not a defense per se, but Muggsy definitely did *some* things well on the court.

Especially related to turnovers (steals, and not turning the ball over)

In terms of assist:turnover ratio he was actually pretty outstanding in and around his prime.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Modern Era/LeFraud fans are STILL shook up AF over the devastating and crushing remarks the Commissioner, VP of Ops, and many current players/coaches made about today's NBA... so they try to mask their embarrassment (over supporting an inferior product) by ripping on another Era.



(PS: 5'3 Mugsy could DUNK the basketball... shows you just how athletic and talented the players were back then. )

LeOuuuch.

[zombiesonics]

‘90s NBA:

[thedangerouskitchen]

‘90s NBA:

Two (2) supremely athletic and gifted 5'3 guys who could dunk as good as any player today.

[Robceltsfan]

Remember, kids....5'6" 135 LB Spud Webb was a 16 PPG scorer in the early 90's.

But Lebron is gonna have trouble scoring in that era.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Remember, kids....5'6" 135 LB Spud Webb was a 16 PPG scorer in the early 90's.

But Lebron is gonna have trouble scoring in that era.

Based on how much easier it is to score today (relative to the 90's), as confirned by the NBA Commissioner, VP of Ops, and many players/coaches, Spud Webb would average 20-PPG if he played in this Era.

What's yer point?

[elmerjfudd]

5 of the 7 shortest NBA players in history played in the 90s

[ElJorge]

Remember, kids....5'6" 135 LB Spud Webb was a 16 PPG scorer in the early 90's.

But Lebron is gonna have trouble scoring in that era.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I know you’re just dicking around but athletes are athletes. Defenses were given a lot more leeway in terms of physicality back then, so yes technically it was a bit more difficult to score. But offenses today are also a lot better, especially with spacing. I think old heads need to realize that just because there’s no hand checking today doesn’t mean that modern players wouldn’t be able to adapt to it, and conversely just because the 3-ball wasn’t really a thing back then doesn’t mean players couldn’t get better at it with enough reps. Fucking drives me nuts when old/young fans argue about their eras, as if these players wouldn’t be world class athletes in ANY era. Magic Johnson surrounded by 3-pt shooters would be insane to see… and conversely, give an elite perimeter defender like Lu Dort the ability to hand check and he’d be hell on the guy he’s guarding.

[wailuaFC]

Remember, kids....5'6" 135 LB Spud Webb was a 16 PPG scorer in the early 90's.

But Lebron is gonna have trouble scoring in that era.

I know you’re just dicking around but athletes are athletes. Defenses were given a lot more leeway in terms of physicality back then, so yes technically it was a bit more difficult to score. But offenses today are also a lot better, especially with spacing. I think old heads need to realize that just because there’s no hand checking today doesn’t mean that modern players wouldn’t be able to adapt to it, and conversely just because the 3-ball wasn’t really a thing back then doesn’t mean players couldn’t get better at it with enough reps. Fucking drives me nuts when old/young fans argue about their eras, as if these players wouldn’t be world class athletes in ANY era. Magic Johnson surrounded by 3-pt shooters would be insane to see… and conversely, give an elite perimeter defender like Lu Dort the ability to hand check and he’d be hell on the guy he’s guarding.

Hand checking is still allowed. Watch Dort, Beverly, smart, holiday etc defend the ball, they are constantly putting their hands all over the ball handlers and using the forearm post. The league cracked down between like 2005-2007, but it’s free game to do these days

[Bush4Ever.]

If you think old heads could have shot threes as well as modern players "with enough practice" (and dribble/pass/move at all positions) you MUST lower/decrease their rating of basketball IQ.

It's not an option. It would be a factual matter, as a matter of basic min/maxing and optimization.

The math and basic logic of modern analysis is incredibly simple at a basic level (maybe not so much at a more advanced level).

Either they could do it, and were retarded. Or they understood the logic, and couldn't do it because they were incompetent scrubs.

Additionally, if you think old school offenses were so pitifully because of defensive rules, you MUST (to be internally consistent), bump up modern players defensive outputs in the type of thought experiments that place guys like Lebron back in 1991. Lebron would averaged at least eight steals and five blocks a game if he could abuse players defensively, just like MJ would average 80 points a game today because something something soft era.

[ElJorge]

Remember, kids....5'6" 135 LB Spud Webb was a 16 PPG scorer in the early 90's.

But Lebron is gonna have trouble scoring in that era.

I know you’re just dicking around but athletes are athletes. Defenses were given a lot more leeway in terms of physicality back then, so yes technically it was a bit more difficult to score. But offenses today are also a lot better, especially with spacing. I think old heads need to realize that just because there’s no hand checking today doesn’t mean that modern players wouldn’t be able to adapt to it, and conversely just because the 3-ball wasn’t really a thing back then doesn’t mean players couldn’t get better at it with enough reps. Fucking drives me nuts when old/young fans argue about their eras, as if these players wouldn’t be world class athletes in ANY era. Magic Johnson surrounded by 3-pt shooters would be insane to see… and conversely, give an elite perimeter defender like Lu Dort the ability to hand check and he’d be hell on the guy he’s guarding.

Hand checking is still allowed. Watch Dort, Beverly, smart, holiday etc defend the ball, they are constantly putting their hands all over the ball handlers and using the forearm post. The league cracked down between like 2005-2007, but it’s free game to do these days

I’m sure they do hand check to some degree and maybe they’re not as blatant with it, but technically it’s still illegal in the NBA. I think refs today might have the mindset of “well it’s not really impeding the ball handler so I’ll just ignore it”, otherwise they’d be calling lots of ticky tack fouls and screwing up the flow of the game.

[ElJorge]

If you think old heads could have shot threes as well as modern players "with enough practice" (and dribble/pass/move at all positions) you MUST lower/decrease their rating of basketball IQ.

It's not an option. It would be a factual matter, as a matter of basic min/maxing and optimization.

The math and basic logic of modern analysis is incredibly simple at a basic level (maybe not so much at a more advanced level).

Either they could do it, and were retarded. Or they understood the logic, and couldn't do it because they were incompetent scrubs.

Additionally, if you think old school offenses were so pitifully because of defensive rules, you MUST (to be internally consistent), bump up modern players defensive outputs in the type of thought experiments that place guys like Lebron back in 1991. Lebron would averaged at least eight steals and five blocks a game if he could abuse players defensively, just like MJ would average 80 points a game today because something something soft era.

You might be overthinking it just a hair. It goes without saying that the more you practice something the better you get at it. Players being too stubborn to utilize the 3-ball back then kinda goes without saying. I mean keep in mind this is before Morey and hardcore analytics, so yes in comparison to today there was a bit of retardation when it came to spacing back then. And yes… prime Lebron’s defense would improve with more lax officiating, and yes MJ would dice up defenses with more spacing.

[Bush4Ever.]

You might be overthinking it just a hair. It goes without saying that the more you practice something the better you get at it. Players being too stubborn to utilize the 3-ball back then kinda goes without saying. I mean keep in mind this is before Morey and hardcore analytics, so yes in comparison to today there was a bit of retardation when it came to spacing back then. And yes… prime Lebron’s defense would improve with more lax officiating, and yes MJ would dice up defenses with more spacing.

Not a little, a lot.

Sub 80 IQ level retardation.

Bird/Magic/Isiah/MJ had 10+ years to incorporate the shot in a meaningful manner, and none of them did to a modern level, and only Bird even sniffed around the idea.

And no, MJ would not score more (or at least much more) than he did in yesteryear. Minutes played, better athletes, less reliance on iso ball, etc...all pull him downward.

He beat the closest peers (who were radically below modern players) during his scoring title reign by about 3-4 points a game most years.

Yet boomers believe he's averaging 45 a game while Durant averages 30. Lunacy.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Remember, kids....5'6" 135 LB Spud Webb was a 16 PPG scorer in the early 90's.

But Lebron is gonna have trouble scoring in that era.

I know you’re just dicking around but athletes are athletes. Defenses were given a lot more leeway in terms of physicality back then, so yes technically it was a bit more difficult to score. But offenses today are also a lot better, especially with spacing. I think old heads need to realize that just because there’s no hand checking today doesn’t mean that modern players wouldn’t be able to adapt to it, and conversely just because the 3-ball wasn’t really a thing back then doesn’t mean players couldn’t get better at it with enough reps. Fucking drives me nuts when old/young fans argue about their eras, as if these players wouldn’t be world class athletes in ANY era. Magic Johnson surrounded by 3-pt shooters would be insane to see… and conversely, give an elite perimeter defender like Lu Dort the ability to hand check and he’d be hell on the guy he’s guarding.

Hand checking is still allowed. Watch Dort, Beverly, smart, holiday etc defend the ball, they are constantly putting their hands all over the ball handlers and using the forearm post. The league cracked down between like 2005-2007, but it’s free game to do these days

This^^^

Handcheck rules were enforced to a ridiculous extent, especially in the 2005-06 season and for a few seasons afterwards to a slightly lesser extent, but there is a huge amount of contact that goes uncalled now. There is ZERO resemblance to 2006.

[ElJorge]

You might be overthinking it just a hair. It goes without saying that the more you practice something the better you get at it. Players being too stubborn to utilize the 3-ball back then kinda goes without saying. I mean keep in mind this is before Morey and hardcore analytics, so yes in comparison to today there was a bit of retardation when it came to spacing back then. And yes… prime Lebron’s defense would improve with more lax officiating, and yes MJ would dice up defenses with more spacing.

Not a little, a lot.

Sub 80 IQ level retardation.

Bird/Magic/Isiah/MJ had 10+ years to incorporate the shot in a meaningful manner, and none of them did to a modern level, and only Bird even sniffed around the idea.

And no, MJ would not score more (or at least much more) than he did in yesteryear. Minutes played, better athletes, less reliance on iso ball, etc...all pull him downward.

He beat the closest peers (who were radically below modern players) during his scoring title reign by about 3-4 points a game most years.

Yet boomers believe he's averaging 45 a game while Durant averages 30. Lunacy.

See everyone? This is why autism is a spectrum. You get guys like Arty on one side and then you get guys like Bush on the other.

[Bush4Ever.]

See everyone? This is why autism is a spectrum. You get guys like Arty on one side and then you get guys like Bush on the other.

Not at all.

In 1992, Jordan averaged 30.1 PPG and Chris Mullin 25.6 (4.5 ppg difference).

Explain to me why he'd beat guys like Kevin Durant by 15 PPG now, when he beat Mullin less than five points a game smack in the middle of his prime.

[Robceltsfan]

I know you’re just dicking around but athletes are athletes. Defenses were given a lot more leeway in terms of physicality back then, so yes technically it was a bit more difficult to score. But offenses today are also a lot better, especially with spacing. I think old heads need to realize that just because there’s no hand checking today doesn’t mean that modern players wouldn’t be able to adapt to it, and conversely just because the 3-ball wasn’t really a thing back then doesn’t mean players couldn’t get better at it with enough reps. Fucking drives me nuts when old/young fans argue about their eras, as if these players wouldn’t be world class athletes in ANY era. Magic Johnson surrounded by 3-pt shooters would be insane to see… and conversely, give an elite perimeter defender like Lu Dort the ability to hand check and he’d be hell on the guy he’s guarding.

Hand checking is still allowed. Watch Dort, Beverly, smart, holiday etc defend the ball, they are constantly putting their hands all over the ball handlers and using the forearm post. The league cracked down between like 2005-2007, but it’s free game to do these days

This^^^

Handcheck rules were enforced to a ridiculous extent, especially in the 2005-06 season and for a few seasons afterwards to a slightly lesser extent, but there is a huge amount of contact that goes uncalled now. There is ZERO resemblance to 2006.

There have been 14 seasons in NBA history where the league average for FTA's per game was below 24.0. The 2001-02 season.....and the past 13 seasons.