Bush...

[PhutureDynasty]

... Is Gordon Ryan the GOAT?

[Bush4Ever.]

It's pretty much a strict question of criteria.

He certainly is in no-gi, and it's fairly obvious IMO. But he's not a factor in gi, or in application of BJJ to MMA at all, so it makes it a little difficult to give him that title for BJJ or submission grappling overall, since he basically has 0s and NAs in categories that are pretty important (IMO).

I think Roger Gracie is a better choice for a GOAT claim to BJJ overall, since he had deep success in gi, no-gi, and applying bjj to MMA/fighting.

Gordon is currently more dominant in no-gi than Roger was in anything, but I think Roger's collection of accomplishments is better, and a little more relevant to BJJ as a martial art, rather than a sport.

In a way that's slightly unfair to Ryan though, because gi and no gi competition basically involved the same people in the old(er) days and weren't their own specialized sports.

I tend to think of it:

No-Gi: Ryan
Gi: Roger Gracie
MMA application: Probably Maia. Guys like BJ Penn were better in MMA, but also drew from other MMA skills in ways Maia really couldn't. At the very least, he's the best example of a relative non-athlete using BJJ to compete with absolute monsters.
P4P: Probably the hardest category to think about, but the guys I've been the most impressed by in a P4P sense are Rafa Mendes and Marcelo Garcia.
Old-School: Rickson Gracie
Overall: Roger Gracie

[PhutureDynasty]

It's pretty much a strict question of criteria.

He certainly is in no-gi, and it's fairly obvious IMO. But he's not a factor in gi, or in application of BJJ to MMA at all, so it makes it a little difficult to give him that title for BJJ or submission grappling overall, since he basically has 0s and NAs in categories that are pretty important (IMO).

I think Roger Gracie is a better choice for a GOAT claim to BJJ overall, since he had deep success in gi, no-gi, and applying bjj to MMA/fighting.

Gordon is currently more dominant in no-gi than Roger was in anything, but I think Roger's collection of accomplishments is better, and a little more relevant to BJJ as a martial art, rather than a sport.

In a way that's slightly unfair to Ryan though, because gi and no gi competition basically involved the same people in the old(er) days and weren't their own specialized sports.

I tend to think of it:

No-Gi: Ryan
Gi: Roger Gracie
MMA application: Probably Maia. Guys like BJ Penn were better in MMA, but also drew from other MMA skills in ways Maia really couldn't. At the very least, he's the best example of a relative non-athlete using BJJ to compete with absolute monsters.
P4P: Probably the hardest category to think about, but the guys I've been the most impressed by in a P4P sense are Rafa Mendes and Marcelo Garcia.
Old-School: Rickson Gracie
Overall: Roger Gracie

I appreciate the detailed response.

You know infinitely more about both the craft itself and the competitions which is why I pinged this question off of ya to see what you thought.

I just watched a video on Ryan's career to date as well as one on Mikey Musumeci. Both of them are fascinating in different ways. Mikey literally looks like a kid who got bullied in school and decided to collect limb trophies as revenge. He also beat Imanari in a grappling match in ONE which I thought was crazy.

Gordon is probably using PEDs, no? His weight and size transformation looks suspect.

Seems like New Jersey is a hotbed for BJJ talent too. Garry Tonon, Gordon Ryan, and Mikey Musumeci all are from the state.

[PhutureDynasty]

Also, Rickson is one of my favorite martial arts personalities and martial arts people ever. A true living legend.

I hope he's doing better.

[Bush4Ever.]

I appreciate the detailed response.

You know infinitely more about both the craft itself and the competitions which is why I pinged this question off of ya to see what you thought.

I just watched a video on Ryan's career to date as well as one on Mikey Musumeci. Both of them are fascinating in different ways. Mikey literally looks like a kid who got bullied in school and decided to collect limb trophies as revenge. He also beat Imanari in a grappling match in ONE which I thought was crazy.

Gordon is probably using PEDs, no? His weight and size transformation looks suspect.

Seems like New Jersey is a hotbed for BJJ talent too. Garry Tonon, Gordon Ryan, and Mikey Musumeci all are from the state.

Gordon is definitely using PEDs, but the majority of top guys do. PEDs in submission grappling is sort of in the same place as PED-testing in the UFC prior to USADA back in the day (IMO).

And yes, NJ's proximity to NYC really helped. The Brunswick guys and Nicky Rod aren't in the area anymore, but the area is still pretty rich in terms of high quality schools, even if they don't leave a competition footprint on the world stage. A lot of NJ's lineage funnels through the ones found in NYC, even if they are currently based in NJ.

Imanari was never really a top flight submission grappler despite leaving a neat unique mark on the game, and was very old at the time of that match (maybe mid 40s?). Pretty much nothing that happens in ONE is going to move the needle for Mikey on a strict sub-grappling legacy basis. It's a money play and min-maxing risk vs. money.

[PhutureDynasty]

I appreciate the detailed response.

You know infinitely more about both the craft itself and the competitions which is why I pinged this question off of ya to see what you thought.

I just watched a video on Ryan's career to date as well as one on Mikey Musumeci. Both of them are fascinating in different ways. Mikey literally looks like a kid who got bullied in school and decided to collect limb trophies as revenge. He also beat Imanari in a grappling match in ONE which I thought was crazy.

Gordon is probably using PEDs, no? His weight and size transformation looks suspect.

Seems like New Jersey is a hotbed for BJJ talent too. Garry Tonon, Gordon Ryan, and Mikey Musumeci all are from the state.

Gordon is definitely using PEDs, but the majority of top guys do. PEDs in submission grappling is sort of in the same place as PED-testing in the UFC prior to USADA back in the day (IMO).

And yes, NJ's proximity to NYC really helped. The Brunswick guys and Nicky Rod aren't in the area anymore, but the area is still pretty rich in terms of high quality schools, even if they don't leave a competition footprint on the world stage. A lot of NJ's lineage funnels through the ones found in NYC, even if they are currently based in NJ.

Imanari was never really a top flight submission grappler despite leaving a neat unique mark on the game, and was very old at the time of that match (maybe mid 40s?). Pretty much nothing that happens in ONE is going to move the needle for Mikey on a strict sub-grappling legacy basis. It's a money play and min-maxing risk vs. money.

Is Imanari that old? Damn. I said that because he has a move named after him and it's fun to watch. I figured he was better in the strict grappling department but he's also an MMA fighter so it's probably a bit easier to catch someone in a fight with the move than it is a grappler who specializes in BJJ; especially one of the caliber of Mikey.

The PED use makes sense though. What BJJ organization is going to be able afford a disciplined testing agency like USADA to make sure these grapplers are clean?