Who ranks higher on your GOAT list between Magic and Duncan?

[PhutureDynasty]

The other advantage Magic had over Duncan is that the West in the 80s was generally a clusterfuck of awful teams. He had a cakewalk in the playoffs on a relative basis compared to Duncan.

People also tend to overrate Duncan's teammates a bit. In 2003, when he was at his peak and won the title, yes he had Admiral, Parker and Gino. But Gino was a rookie who was nowhere near what he would become, Parker was a 2nd year PG from France who still had deer in the headlights syndrome and Admiral was pretty much on his last legs. He was 37 and Malik Rose was playing almost as many minutes beside Duncan as Robinson was.

Like most here, I think it is very close and would take no offense to differing opinions, but I would give the edge to Duncan.

The Lakers, in 1984 and 1987, faced 3 opponents in the West en route to the Finals. In both of those years, the opponents combined records were SUB-.500.

1984: 122-124
1987: 118-128

But they had to face the mighty Celtics in the finals. Meanwhile Timmy was feasting on juggernauts like the 99 Knicks, 03 Nets, and the 07 Lebron and Meatballs Cavs

*Cough*



*Cough*

[Odogg]

Them too. But I was going with the years Rob listed. Bad Boy Pistons we’re no cakewalk either

[thedangerouskitchen]

This is a tough call, but one thing I know for sure: BOTH Duncan and Magic are higher up on my ATG list than LeFraud.

That said, Duncan and Magic both have a case for Top 5 but put a gun to my head and I'd have to give Timmy the edge because of his 2-way dominance on Offense AND Defense.

[thedangerouskitchen]

The other advantage Magic had over Duncan is that the West in the 80s was generally a clusterfuck of awful teams. He had a cakewalk in the playoffs on a relative basis compared to Duncan.

People also tend to overrate Duncan's teammates a bit. In 2003, when he was at his peak and won the title, yes he had Admiral, Parker and Gino. But Gino was a rookie who was nowhere near what he would become, Parker was a 2nd year PG from France who still had deer in the headlights syndrome and Admiral was pretty much on his last legs. He was 37 and Malik Rose was playing almost as many minutes beside Duncan as Robinson was.

Like most here, I think it is very close and would take no offense to differing opinions, but I would give the edge to Duncan.

The Lakers, in 1984 and 1987, faced 3 opponents in the West en route to the Finals. In both of those years, the opponents combined records were SUB-.500.

1984: 122-124
1987: 118-128

The West in the 80's was lot like the East during LeBron's run... weak from an all-time perspective AND weak relative to the other respective Conferences at the time. The difference with Magic of course, is that he went 5-4 in the Finals against the Best of the Better (Eastern) Conference where as James went a dismal 3-6 against the Best of the better WC.

Just sayin'...

[PhutureDynasty]

My personal top 12 GOAT list would be...

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Tim Duncan
6. Magic Johnson
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Larry Bird
9. Steph Curry
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Hakeem Olajuwon

LeBron, Mike, Bill, and Kareem in the top tier

Duncan, Magic, Wilt, and Bird in the second tier

Steph, Shaq, Kobe, and Dream in the third tier

Each tier's players can be interchangeable spot to spot and I wouldn't have much issue.

[wailuaFC]

I have Duncan lower than most people. During his prime he wasn’t the best defender at his position (KG) or the best offensive player (Dirk). If you want to say he was a winner, he absolutely was, but he benefitted by having Pop and a team that won 59 games the season prior to tanking for him. His last title he was a key role player, but he wasn’t the offensive or defensive engine for that team. He was 3rd in scoring and 3rd in drtg (of players that played significant minutes), but for some reason that title is valued like he was the driving force behind it and not Kawhi. He’s in the top 10, but he’s closer to Shaq, KG, and Hakeem than Magic IMO

[Bush4Ever.]

I don't personally care much about being the best defender (actually, Ben Wallace at his best was better than both KG and Duncan, although I think Duncan was still very slightly more valuable defensively than KG), since he's very clearly an all-time level defensive player, and he did it for a long time. He was 2nd team All-D in 1998 and 2015.

The knock against him not being a major scorer for most of his career holds a lot more weight to me ("only" 22 PPG from 98 through 07), and relative lack of passing compared to some other legendary bigs, if that matters to people.

If he had maintained that for his career it would be different, but he was a 16 PPG guy in the second half of his career, 17 if you cut out his last season.

He definitely didn't have Shaq or Kareem's ability in that regard. He's almost bang on Dream's level for career (same pts/possession and TS+), although one could argue Hakeem peaked higher with Duncan making up the gap some via less severe valleys.

[Shill Jackson]

I have Duncan lower than most people. During his prime he wasn’t the best defender at his position (KG) or the best offensive player (Dirk). If you want to say he was a winner, he absolutely was, but he benefitted by having Pop and a team that won 59 games the season prior to tanking for him. His last title he was a key role player, but he wasn’t the offensive or defensive engine for that team. He was 3rd in scoring and 3rd in drtg (of players that played significant minutes), but for some reason that title is valued like he was the driving force behind it and not Kawhi. He’s in the top 10, but he’s closer to Shaq, KG, and Hakeem than Magic IMO

This
He also wasn’t really much of a “leader”.
I’ll take Magic. He went against better Finals competition than pretty much anybody, and what he did his rookie year has never been matched. What gets lost with his smiley personality is that he was a fierce competitor. The slight on his scoring is smoke, he could score pretty much at will when he chose to. If not for the HIV, he would be in the top three.

[PhutureDynasty]

I have Duncan lower than most people. During his prime he wasn’t the best defender at his position (KG) or the best offensive player (Dirk). If you want to say he was a winner, he absolutely was, but he benefitted by having Pop and a team that won 59 games the season prior to tanking for him. His last title he was a key role player, but he wasn’t the offensive or defensive engine for that team. He was 3rd in scoring and 3rd in drtg (of players that played significant minutes), but for some reason that title is valued like he was the driving force behind it and not Kawhi. He’s in the top 10, but he’s closer to Shaq, KG, and Hakeem than Magic IMO

This
He also wasn’t really much of a “leader”.
I’ll take Magic. He went against better Finals competition than pretty much anybody, and what he did his rookie year has never been matched. What gets lost with his smiley personality is that he was a fierce competitor. The slight on his scoring is smoke, he could score pretty much at will when he chose to. If not for the HIV, he would be in the top three.

Magic staying HIV-free is definitely a fun hypothetical.

If he plays all the way through the late 90s (which was possible for him, even back then with less knowledge on injury prevention and maintenance; see Kareem for example) a few notable things happen...

1. He owns the assist record outright and probably leaves it unrecognizable.

2. In 1997 both Kobe and Shaq join the Lakers. Could you imagine old man Magic setting up Kobe and Shaq?

3. He almost certainly does join the GOAT conversation with his added stats and maybe additional title or two.

[Bush4Ever.]

Anyone who could score "at-will", and elected to average 18 points a game (his average over the first half of his career) would be doing his team a disservice. He played on faster-than-normal teams to boot.

Magic averaged nearly 10 points/100 possessions less than Steph Curry, over almost the exact same number of games, on almost the exact same league-adjusted efficiency.

That's not comparable in any sense. Magic actually averages less points/possession than Chris Paul for career....how many people consider Chris Paul to be some sort of scoring demon (as opposed to simply being "very good" and efficient in a non-elite scoring role with respect to burden)?

[Shill Jackson]

I have Duncan lower than most people. During his prime he wasn’t the best defender at his position (KG) or the best offensive player (Dirk). If you want to say he was a winner, he absolutely was, but he benefitted by having Pop and a team that won 59 games the season prior to tanking for him. His last title he was a key role player, but he wasn’t the offensive or defensive engine for that team. He was 3rd in scoring and 3rd in drtg (of players that played significant minutes), but for some reason that title is valued like he was the driving force behind it and not Kawhi. He’s in the top 10, but he’s closer to Shaq, KG, and Hakeem than Magic IMO

This
He also wasn’t really much of a “leader”.
I’ll take Magic. He went against better Finals competition than pretty much anybody, and what he did his rookie year has never been matched. What gets lost with his smiley personality is that he was a fierce competitor. The slight on his scoring is smoke, he could score pretty much at will when he chose to. If not for the HIV, he would be in the top three.

Magic staying HIV-free is definitely a fun hypothetical.

If he plays all the way through the late 90s (which was possible for him, even back then with less knowledge on injury prevention and maintenance; see Kareem for example) a few notable things happen...

1. He owns the assist record outright and probably leaves it unrecognizable.

2. In 1997 both Kobe and Shaq join the Lakers. Could you imagine old man Magic setting up Kobe and Shaq?

3. He almost certainly does join the GOAT conversation with his added stats and maybe additional title or two.

With a 75% reach the Finals record, I think another ring or two would have been certain

[Odogg]

My personal top 12 GOAT list would be...

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Tim Duncan
6. Magic Johnson
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Larry Bird
9. Steph Curry
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Hakeem Olajuwon

LeBron, Mike, Bill, and Kareem in the top tier

Duncan, Magic, Wilt, and Bird in the second tier

Steph, Shaq, Kobe, and Dream in the third tier

Each tier's players can be interchangeable spot to spot and I wouldn't have much issue.

My current list in order:

MJ
LBJ
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Timmy
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Curry
Wilt
Hakeem