Top 10 perimeter defenders ever?

[FPL]

(Including specialists.)

I think Jordan, Pippen, Kawhi, Artest, Tony Allen are locks.

Bowen? Moncrief? Both seem like good mentions

LeBron is tricky. I think at his best he was a very good hybrid defender (perimeter and paint; kinda like Garnett or Draymond, both were obviously better defensively, but were also more paint focussed).
First threepeat Kobe is up there. Was great on defense thereafter but not transcendent. Though maybe in terms of body of work that is enough. Some guys here had short peaks.

Rodman kind of has the same issues as both LeBron and Kobe (at his peak he was better obviously). He was best as a perimeter defender until the end of his spell in Detroit, but otherwise became a hybrid defender (more of a post shutdown specialist the later you go). Some of it was starting in an era when every team had two bigs and finishing his career when it was rarer. Bobby Jones might've had a similar arc if he came into the league a decade later.

You guys feel comfortable with any point guards up there? Payton. Kidd. CP3. Frazier. Stockton. Size is an issue I guess, but Tony Allen wasn't huge.

[Shill Jackson]

Dream
and Kobe is underrated

[Bartman]

(Including specialists.)

I think Jordan, Pippen, Kawhi, Artest, Tony Allen are locks.

Bowen? Moncrief? Both seem like good mentions

LeBron is tricky. I think at his best he was a very good hybrid defender (perimeter and paint; kinda like Garnett or Draymond, both were obviously better defensively, but were also more paint focussed).
First threepeat Kobe is up there. Was great on defense thereafter but not transcendent. Though maybe in terms of body of work that is enough. Some guys here had short peaks.

Rodman kind of has the same issues as both LeBron and Kobe (at his peak he was better obviously). He was best as a perimeter defender until the end of his spell in Detroit, but otherwise became a hybrid defender (more of a post shutdown specialist the later you go). Some of it was starting in an era when every team had two bigs and finishing his career when it was rarer. Bobby Jones might've had a similar arc if he came into the league a decade later.

You guys feel comfortable with any point guards up there? Payton. Kidd. CP3. Frazier. Stockton. Size is an issue I guess, but Tony Allen wasn't huge.

No Michael Cooper or Joe Dumars?

[Havlicekstealsit]

Alvin Robertson, Michael Ray Richardson, Mo Cheeks, John Stockton deserve some mention.

[FPL]

No Michael Cooper or Joe Dumars?

Yeah my bad, both are great mentions.

Speaking of 80s guys, probably should include DJ too

[elmerjfudd]

At least from the stories, on top of being a legendary interior defender wasn't Russell great on the perimeter

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[thedangerouskitchen]

Speaking only on the players that I have seen, the Top 10 greatest "perimeter" Defenders are MJ, Pippen, Payton, Cooper, Kawhi, Moncrief, DJ, Bowen, Dumars and Rodman.

LeBron? Not a chance... he played at an "all time great" perimeter Defensive level for maybe a couple seasons at most.

Kobe? Vastly over-rated Defensively, and his very own coaches (Phil and Tex) would tell you the same. In fact, they pretty much have already in the past.

[thedangerouskitchen]

At least from the stories, on top of being a legendary interior defender wasn't Russell great on the perimeter

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Eh... what's so "great" about defending players who shot 38%-42% from the field, and couldn't dribble with their off-hand???

[LNS]

KKKobe

[Bartman]

At least from the stories, on top of being a legendary interior defender wasn't Russell great on the perimeter

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Eh... what's so "great" about defending players who shot 38%-42% from the field, and couldn't dribble with their off-hand???

LMAO

[Bartman]

KKKobe

[rileymartin]

How is The Glove not a top 10 lock?...OP loses a lot of credibility with bullshit omissions like this...

[vcsgrizzfan]

At least from the stories, on top of being a legendary interior defender wasn't Russell great on the perimeter

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Beat me to it. Best defender for 94 feet, not just the paint.

[Bartman]

At least from the stories, on top of being a legendary interior defender wasn't Russell great on the perimeter

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Beat me to it. Best defender for 94 feet, not just the paint.

You have any evidence to support this statement? This sounds like more Russell mythology.

[vcsgrizzfan]

At least from the stories, on top of being a legendary interior defender wasn't Russell great on the perimeter

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Beat me to it. Best defender for 94 feet, not just the paint.

You have any evidence to support this statement? This sounds like more Russell mythology.

The only significant factual evidence that can't be argued is that based on defensive rating, the Celtics were bottom half defensive team for the half dozen years before he arrived. While he was there, they had the top defensive rating 12 of 13 seasons in the entire NBA and second the only other season they didn't lead. The season after he retired they gave up ten points per game more and went from beating West, Wilt and Baylor for his 11th ring to missing the playoffs.

There are some clips of old film showing him running down guards (one of West in particular) where he chased him down from about twenty feet back to block him at the rim.

You're right overall that I can't specifically point to data because none exists to prove it one way or another. So I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

Cheers.

[rileymartin]

Beat me to it. Best defender for 94 feet, not just the paint.

You have any evidence to support this statement? This sounds like more Russell mythology.

The only significant factual evidence that can't be argued is that based on defensive rating, the Celtics were bottom half defensive team for the half dozen years before he arrived. While he was there, they had the top defensive rating 12 of 13 seasons in the entire NBA and second the only other season they didn't lead. The season after he retired they gave up ten points per game more and went from beating West, Wilt and Baylor for his 11th ring to missing the playoffs.

There are some clips of old film showing him running down guards (one of West in particular) where he chased him down from about twenty feet back to block him at the rim.

You're right overall that I can't specifically point to data because none exists to prove it one way or another. So I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

Cheers.

Grizz, I love you my guy, but, arguing Russell instead of Payton is a pretty bad look...

[Bartman]

Beat me to it. Best defender for 94 feet, not just the paint.

You have any evidence to support this statement? This sounds like more Russell mythology.

The only significant factual evidence that can't be argued is that based on defensive rating, the Celtics were bottom half defensive team for the half dozen years before he arrived. While he was there, they had the top defensive rating 12 of 13 seasons in the entire NBA and second the only other season they didn't lead. The season after he retired they gave up ten points per game more and went from beating West, Wilt and Baylor for his 11th ring to missing the playoffs.

There are some clips of old film showing him running down guards (one of West in particular) where he chased him down from about twenty feet back to block him at the rim.

You're right overall that I can't specifically point to data because none exists to prove it one way or another. So I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

Cheers.

Russell was definitely one of the best defenders of all time, I only have a hard time believing he could defend guards effectively on a consistent basis especially in today's game with guards coming off multiple screens. He was a great defender but I would need a lot of convincing to believe he could be an elite perimeter defender but it's not out of the question either.

[Havlicekstealsit]

It's always interesting how it's just the 60s guys being the only ones held to the standard of "how would they defend players of today?" Nevermind they had to matchup against great offensive powers of their own respective era. As if the Wilts, Oscars, Wests, Petitis & others then somehow don't count.

[Bush4Ever.]

I think Russell was approximately Hakeem 1.0 in terms of the interplay between interior and perimeter defense (probably not quite as quick as Hakeem outright, but probably more impactful relative to era).

I don't think he would be close to being the most impactful strictly on the perimeter, however.

The backpicks report is worth posting:

http://www.backpicks.com/2018/04/02/bac ... l-russell/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[LNS]

It’s ol’ Bush and his Backpicks...