Robceltsfan wrote:
Meh....I disagree. Duncan is moderately better than Bird defensively. Bird is more-than-marginally better than Duncan offensively.
Dude come on. I'm a Bird man too, but Duncan is *extremely* superior to Bird defensively. He's arguably the best defensive player of his generation, anchoring what has unquestionably been the most consistently excellent defense of the last 15 years.
That's basically the "you're not being sincere if you disagree" thing in Duncan's favor in this thread.
I might as well say Bird is a moderately better shooter than Duncan.
Taking a break from the board. Please reference my last post for more details if you are interested.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Duncan is clearly more than "moderately" better than Bird defensively. That's really bad homerism broseph.
I didn't say marginally....I said moderately.
Bird wasn't some fucking bum on the defensive end. He led the NBA in DWS 4 times and twice made 2nd-team All-defense. I get tired of people acting like Bird was some liability on the defensive end. That is not the truth. He was an outstanding defensive rebounder despite playing the 3 most of his career (and having Parish & McHale taking many rebounds). He had a career defensive rating of 101 compared to Duncan's 96. Their respective offensive ratings were 115 and 110....the exact same 5 point difference.
I'm not homering shit.
Relax. I've defended Bird's defense a number of times, but he ain't in Duncan's area code defensively. Take the fucking really bad homer glasses off and a deep breath while you're at it.
Offensive to defensive rating they're both a +14. Duncan actually had things about him offensively that were undeniably a liability. He's a career 69% FT shooter. He does have limited range.
The difference between the two of them defensively doesn't outweigh the difference in the two offensively. It just doesn't. One guy is one of the greatest offensive players of all-time while the other one might not be the 5th best scoring option at the PF slot....and certainly not the C slot.
I'm happy to give Duncan his due at #6 all-time.......but I'm not ready to put him ahead of Larry. I just don't see it.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Once again... getting lost in the shuffle... getting a free pass... Magic Johnson.
Notice how Bird is being ripped for not being at Duncan's level by being tossed in with Magic.
Magic wins this one... because he's suddenly seen as good defensively as Bird was.
But he wasn't. I'm fine with the Duncan was better defensively angle IF we don't do it with the simplicity of Duncan > Bird = Magic.
Robceltsfan wrote:
I didn't say marginally....I said moderately.
Bird wasn't some fucking bum on the defensive end. He led the NBA in DWS 4 times and twice made 2nd-team All-defense. I get tired of people acting like Bird was some liability on the defensive end. That is not the truth. He was an outstanding defensive rebounder despite playing the 3 most of his career (and having Parish & McHale taking many rebounds). He had a career defensive rating of 101 compared to Duncan's 96. Their respective offensive ratings were 115 and 110....the exact same 5 point difference.
I'm not homering shit.
Relax. I've defended Bird's defense a number of times, but he ain't in Duncan's area code defensively. Take the fucking really bad homer glasses off and a deep breath while you're at it.
Offensive to defensive rating they're both a +14. Duncan actually had things about him offensively that were undeniably a liability. He's a career 69% FT shooter. He does have limited range.
The difference between the two of them defensively doesn't outweigh the difference in the two offensively. It just doesn't. One guy is one of the greatest offensive players of all-time while the other one might not be the 5th best scoring option at the PF slot....and certainly not the C slot.
I'm happy to give Duncan his due at #6 all-time.......but I'm not ready to put him ahead of Larry. I just don't see it.
You can make cases for both for overall placing, and I don't feel hugely strongly about it either way. I go with Duncan, but I certainly understand the case for Bird.
What is baloney is what you were trying to sell with respect to the difference between the two defensively. That's just nonsense.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Once again... getting lost in the shuffle... getting a free pass... Magic Johnson.
Notice how Bird is being ripped for not being at Duncan's level by being tossed in with Magic.
Magic wins this one... because he's suddenly seen as good defensively as Bird was.
But he wasn't. I'm fine with the Duncan was better defensively angle IF we don't do it with the simplicity of Duncan > Bird = Magic.
Bird was a better defender than Magic and by a fair margin but I don't believe the gap between him and Magic defensively is as large as the gap between Duncan and Bird defensively.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Once again... getting lost in the shuffle... getting a free pass... Magic Johnson.
Notice how Bird is being ripped for not being at Duncan's level by being tossed in with Magic.
Magic wins this one... because he's suddenly seen as good defensively as Bird was.
But he wasn't. I'm fine with the Duncan was better defensively angle IF we don't do it with the simplicity of Duncan > Bird = Magic.
I think this is true by the way, although I do think that Bird's atrophied defensively pretty seriously by the end of his career in a way Magic probably did not. On the other hand, Bird started from a higher place. In terms of peak performance though, yes, definitely Bird.
Taking a break from the board. Please reference my last post for more details if you are interested.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Once again... getting lost in the shuffle... getting a free pass... Magic Johnson.
Notice how Bird is being ripped for not being at Duncan's level by being tossed in with Magic.
Magic wins this one... because he's suddenly seen as good defensively as Bird was.
But he wasn't. I'm fine with the Duncan was better defensively angle IF we don't do it with the simplicity of Duncan > Bird = Magic.
Bird was a better defender than Magic and by a fair margin but I don't believe the gap between him and Magic defensively is as large as the gap between Duncan and Bird defensively.
No. I'm not claiming otherwise.
But multiple people are simply grouping Magic and Bird in together under Duncan. That's a disservice to Bird. Of course, he's not as good as Duncan. That doesn't mean he wasn't better than Magic though.
Duncan was an all-time great defender. Bird was an average to slightly-above-average defender. Magic was a below-average defender.
Bird was an all-time great offensive player in every facet and had no weaknesses on the offensive end. Magic was an all-time great point guard and quarterbacked the best offensive teams possibly in history. Duncan is one of the top 10 PF's of all-time offensively, and had a glaring weakness at the FT line.
I think the difference between Duncan and Bird offensively is "nearly" as big as the defensive difference.....and the offensive side of the ball is MUCH more important.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Robceltsfan wrote:Duncan was an all-time great defender. Bird was an average to slightly-above-average defender. Magic was a below-average defender.
Bird was an all-time great offensive player in every facet and had no weaknesses on the offensive end. Magic was an all-time great point guard and quarterbacked the best offensive teams possibly in history. Duncan is one of the top 10 PF's of all-time offensively, and had a glaring weakness at the FT line.
I think the difference between Duncan and Bird offensively is "nearly" as big as the defensive difference.....and the offensive side of the ball is MUCH more important.
We can disagree there. I think the difference between Duncan defensively is significantly greater than the difference between the two offensively. I do agree that differences on offense are generally more important than differences on defense, although I think that distinction is less true for bigs who guard the bucket than for wings.
I think the difference between Duncan and Bird offensively is "nearly" as big as the defensive difference...
If you subscribe to the idea that Magic/Bird were somewhere in the area of "average" defensively, and Duncan was [some ranking far above average offensively], this makes no sense.
Now, if one wants to say that because offense and defense aren't weighted equally, Bird/Magic still come out ahead at the end of the day due to their advantages on the more heavily weighted component of the game, that's an entirely differnet argument.
Taking a break from the board. Please reference my last post for more details if you are interested.
I think the difference between Duncan and Bird offensively is "nearly" as big as the defensive difference...
If you subscribe to the idea that Magic/Bird were somewhere in the area of "average" defensively, and Duncan was [some ranking far above average offensively], this makes no sense.
Now, if one wants to say that because offense and defense aren't weighted equally, Bird/Magic still come out ahead at the end of the day due to their advantages on the more heavily weighted component of the game, that's an entirely differnet argument.
I did make that argument in that very post, and I fully believe in that argument as well.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
y2ktors wrote:
He's definitely far behind Magic Johnson impact-wise on offense.
I think that is exaggerated somewhat. We are still talking about two elite offensive players. It's tough for a 23/11/50 percent shooting/great passing for the position type player to be miles behind anyone offensively. We might be comparing someone in the 99th percentile to someone in the 95th percentile (Magic/Duncan, repsectively).
Defensively though, we are comparing one player at the 99th percentile of performance with players that probably hover in or around the 50th percentile.
No man, it's not over exaggerated. As I've stated before, it could be due to the respective position, but Magic's impact is top 5 GOAT level offensively speaking. He was the ultimate mismatch at PG, too big and strong for perimeter players while too quick and skilled for bigs. Showtime or Slowtime, there was no correct answer to bottling him up, even at age 36 and at a different position. Duncan is simply not on that level And never has been.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Once again... getting lost in the shuffle... getting a free pass... Magic Johnson.
Notice how Bird is being ripped for not being at Duncan's level by being tossed in with Magic.
Magic wins this one... because he's suddenly seen as good defensively as Bird was.
But he wasn't. I'm fine with the Duncan was better defensively angle IF we don't do it with the simplicity of Duncan > Bird = Magic.
Bird was a better defender than Magic and by a fair margin but I don't believe the gap between him and Magic defensively is as large as the gap between Duncan and Bird defensively.
y2ktors wrote:
No man, it's not over exaggerated. As I've stated before, it could be due to the respective position, but Magic's impact is top 5 GOAT level offensively speaking. He was the ultimate mismatch at PG, too big and strong for perimeter players while too quick and skilled for bigs. Showtime or Slowtime, there was no correct answer to bottling him up, even at age 36 and at a different position. Duncan is simply not on that level And never has been.
Duncan isn't at that level. But he's not average offensively. He's far, far above-average.
However, defensively Duncan is in that 99th percentile and Magic is *not* far, far above-average and *is* somewhat close to the average defensively.
That's all I'm saying. Duncan is closer to Magic offensively than Magic is to Duncan defensively.
Taking a break from the board. Please reference my last post for more details if you are interested.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Once again... getting lost in the shuffle... getting a free pass... Magic Johnson.
Notice how Bird is being ripped for not being at Duncan's level by being tossed in with Magic.
Magic wins this one... because he's suddenly seen as good defensively as Bird was.
But he wasn't. I'm fine with the Duncan was better defensively angle IF we don't do it with the simplicity of Duncan > Bird = Magic.
Bird was a better defender than Magic and by a fair margin but I don't believe the gap between him and Magic defensively is as large as the gap between Duncan and Bird defensively.
vcsgrizzfan wrote:
Bird was a better defender than Magic and by a fair margin but I don't believe the gap between him and Magic defensively is as large as the gap between Duncan and Bird defensively.
Indeed.
Great. But NOBODY made that claim.
It's beyond silly at this point. We're comparing Duncan and Bird and nobody can come up with a truly compelling argument as to why Duncan should be ahead of Bird (other than longevity) yet Bird isn't even going to get selected ahead of Magic.
If Kareem gets arbitrarily put in front of Bird at this point this list might as well be null and void in my eyes.
I'M FUCKING STEAMING MAD MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!!
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
Robceltsfan wrote:
It's beyond silly at this point. We're comparing Duncan and Bird and nobody can come up with a truly compelling argument as to why Duncan should be ahead of Bird (other than longevity) :
But that's kind of it.
If Duncan and Bird don't really remove themselves all that much in peak performance *and* Duncan accumulates a lot more stuff than Bird due to his longevity *and* has more rings (lead or otherwise), what is the angle for ranking Bird ahead of Duncan?
Taking a break from the board. Please reference my last post for more details if you are interested.
Robceltsfan wrote:
It's beyond silly at this point. We're comparing Duncan and Bird and nobody can come up with a truly compelling argument as to why Duncan should be ahead of Bird (other than longevity) :
But that's kind of it.
If Duncan and Bird don't really remove themselves all that much in peak performance *and* Duncan accumulates a lot more stuff than Bird due to his longevity *and* has more rings (lead or otherwise), what is the angle for ranking Bird ahead of Duncan?
Bird does remove himself in peak performance IMO. I'd argue that 3 of the 4 best seasons between the two belong to Bird. It's season 7-12 that Bird struggles to compete with due to an abbreviated prime.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are dumber than that.
