Lebron will be implicated with Diddy

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

It's not like the impact data and ideas are even at odds with the eye test or general narratives of the time from basketball heads, which is why the pushback on that specific year is so strange.

There is basically nothing counterintuitive to them, and about the only thing that might get missed is the defensive side of the court when thinking about supporting talent, since the mind probably goes to offense first and foremost when thinking about what supporting talent really means.

It's actually kind of funny to think in the eyes of barbershop narrative people, Lebron's 2009 season might be considered more highly in 2024 if he had done worse in the regular season and only led them to a middle seed, and lost in the first round against an equal, or the second round against a team with more wins like the Magic.

Lebron was historically good in 2009. In terms of players that have had better seasons, it ain't much. The best of Jordan for sure. Shaq in 2000 for sure. Lebron's best Miami year or maybe two...probably.

Other than that, I'm not sure anything else would qualify.

And none of that matters, because TDK will bring it up again and again laying the blame at LeBron's feet. He just can't help himself. Rinse and repeat.

[thedangerouskitchen]

OMG. My work is definitely done here. I got you to write a page of baloney without even trying.

I could go through the series against the Magic again and what went very right for them and what went wrong with the Cavs, but I've done that ad nauseum in the threads you refuse to search.

As far as how good those guys were w/o LeBron, we got the proof as soon as LeBron left. Turns out, most were tomato cans.

You got castrated, meatball... your work is done because you have absolutely zero (0) retort, and rather than take your beating like a real man you decided to take the gutless coward route and imply that you were just trolling.



Bottom line: You don't win 66 games, finish #2/#6 in 3PT%/FG% respectively, #3/#4 overall in Defense/Offense respectively, and then sweep your first two (2) playoff opponents with 1 superstar and a team full of tomato cans... and truth be told you come across looking like a complete buffoon for continuing to suggest that was the case.

Now... MY work ITT is done. Lick your wounds, take a day or two off to think about the beating you just took, then come back to fight another day.

Babbling drivel about "stats".

Bottom line: LeFraud's 2009 supporting cast were not tomato cans, for reasons I illustrated in my previous posts WHICH you conveniently ignored because you're not man enough to admit you're wrong.

Yes they shit the bed in the ECF... just like LeFraud himself shit the bed in the 2007 and 2011 Finals, the 2008 Semi's, the last 3 games of the 2010 Semi's, and 5 of the last 6 seasons with the Lakers; however if you look back on LeFraud's entire career you will see a trend: His teammates have CONSISTENTLY under-performed in the Playoffs, and that's because LeFraud lacks the leadership ability to get the best out of them... which is funny because the MYTH for so many years was that LeFraud makes his teammates soooo much better YET he's lost to lower seeds numerous times AND failed to make the playoffs multiple times when surrounded by multiple all-star/HOF level teammates... teammates that he played a role in bringing on board.

That is no coincidence, meatball.

LeFraud is not a leader. He doesn't set the win-at-all-costs tone throughout the season, he doesn't set the example on the Defensive end, he stifles the development of young talent, and he forces his superstar teammates to adapt to "his" style so he can "get his"... so his uneducated hoop fans (ie; you) can look at the "stats" and blame everyone else for the team's failures.

You have no clue about the game, outside of what you see in the stats. That much is crystal clear.

Now go fix me a sammich, and make it snappy.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

You got castrated, meatball... your work is done because you have absolutely zero (0) retort, and rather than take your beating like a real man you decided to take the gutless coward route and imply that you were just trolling.



Bottom line: You don't win 66 games, finish #2/#6 in 3PT%/FG% respectively, #3/#4 overall in Defense/Offense respectively, and then sweep your first two (2) playoff opponents with 1 superstar and a team full of tomato cans... and truth be told you come across looking like a complete buffoon for continuing to suggest that was the case.

Now... MY work ITT is done. Lick your wounds, take a day or two off to think about the beating you just took, then come back to fight another day.

Babbling drivel about "stats".

Bottom line: LeFraud's 2009 supporting cast were not tomato cans, for reasons I illustrated in my previous posts WHICH you conveniently ignored because you're not man enough to admit you're wrong.

Yes they shit the bed in the ECF... just like LeFraud himself shit the bed in the 2007 and 2011 Finals, the 2008 Semi's, the last 3 games of the 2010 Semi's, and 5 of the last 6 seasons with the Lakers; however if you look back on LeFraud's entire career you will see a trend: His teammates have CONSISTENTLY under-performed in the Playoffs, and that's because LeFraud lacks the leadership ability to get the best out of them... which is funny because the MYTH for so many years was that LeFraud makes his teammates soooo much better YET he's lost to lower seeds numerous times AND failed to make the playoffs multiple times when surrounded by multiple all-star/HOF level teammates... teammates that he played a role in bringing on board.

That is no coincidence, meatball.

LeFraud is not a leader. He doesn't set the win-at-all-costs tone throughout the season, he doesn't set the example on the Defensive end, he stifles the development of young talent, and he forces his superstar teammates to adapt to "his" style so he can "get his"... so his uneducated hoop fans (ie; you) can look at the "stats" and blame everyone else for the team's failures.

You have no clue about the game, outside of what you see in the stats. That much is crystal clear.

Now go fix me a sammich, and make it snappy.

Dude, you got embarrassed and ABUSED. Again.

Between Bush and I, we completely buried you. The team, with LeBron not on the floor, played at a 26 win pace based on point differential. They won 66.

I completely debunked your arguments about the loss to the Magic. You're a babbling idiot who has no ability to recognize his extreme cognitive biases.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Babbling drivel about "stats".

Bottom line: LeFraud's 2009 supporting cast were not tomato cans, for reasons I illustrated in my previous posts WHICH you conveniently ignored because you're not man enough to admit you're wrong.

Yes they shit the bed in the ECF... just like LeFraud himself shit the bed in the 2007 and 2011 Finals, the 2008 Semi's, the last 3 games of the 2010 Semi's, and 5 of the last 6 seasons with the Lakers; however if you look back on LeFraud's entire career you will see a trend: His teammates have CONSISTENTLY under-performed in the Playoffs, and that's because LeFraud lacks the leadership ability to get the best out of them... which is funny because the MYTH for so many years was that LeFraud makes his teammates soooo much better YET he's lost to lower seeds numerous times AND failed to make the playoffs multiple times when surrounded by multiple all-star/HOF level teammates... teammates that he played a role in bringing on board.

That is no coincidence, meatball.

LeFraud is not a leader. He doesn't set the win-at-all-costs tone throughout the season, he doesn't set the example on the Defensive end, he stifles the development of young talent, and he forces his superstar teammates to adapt to "his" style so he can "get his"... so his uneducated hoop fans (ie; you) can look at the "stats" and blame everyone else for the team's failures.

You have no clue about the game, outside of what you see in the stats. That much is crystal clear.

Now go fix me a sammich, and make it snappy.

Dude, you got embarrassed and ABUSED. Again.

Between Bush and I, we completely buried you. The team, with LeBron not on the floor, played at a 26 win pace based on point differential. They won 66.

I completely debunked your arguments about the loss to the Magic. You're a babbling idiot who has no ability to recognize his extreme cognitive biases.

You and bush are stat nerds who clearly don't understand that stats alone don't bring Wins/Championships.

Stat-wise Wilt dominates Russell; however Russ routinely beat Wilt in the Playoffs. Astute hoops fans know that stats withOut leadership won't get you far.

Your wet dream LeFraud is not a leader. That's a fact... he's played alongside more talent than arguably any other star in NBA history yet he's got an embarrassing track record of Winning.

You are a fool. It's just that simple.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Bottom line: LeFraud's 2009 supporting cast were not tomato cans, for reasons I illustrated in my previous posts WHICH you conveniently ignored because you're not man enough to admit you're wrong.

Yes they shit the bed in the ECF... just like LeFraud himself shit the bed in the 2007 and 2011 Finals, the 2008 Semi's, the last 3 games of the 2010 Semi's, and 5 of the last 6 seasons with the Lakers; however if you look back on LeFraud's entire career you will see a trend: His teammates have CONSISTENTLY under-performed in the Playoffs, and that's because LeFraud lacks the leadership ability to get the best out of them... which is funny because the MYTH for so many years was that LeFraud makes his teammates soooo much better YET he's lost to lower seeds numerous times AND failed to make the playoffs multiple times when surrounded by multiple all-star/HOF level teammates... teammates that he played a role in bringing on board.

That is no coincidence, meatball.

LeFraud is not a leader. He doesn't set the win-at-all-costs tone throughout the season, he doesn't set the example on the Defensive end, he stifles the development of young talent, and he forces his superstar teammates to adapt to "his" style so he can "get his"... so his uneducated hoop fans (ie; you) can look at the "stats" and blame everyone else for the team's failures.

You have no clue about the game, outside of what you see in the stats. That much is crystal clear.

Now go fix me a sammich, and make it snappy.

Dude, you got embarrassed and ABUSED. Again.

Between Bush and I, we completely buried you. The team, with LeBron not on the floor, played at a 26 win pace based on point differential. They won 66.

I completely debunked your arguments about the loss to the Magic. You're a babbling idiot who has no ability to recognize his extreme cognitive biases.

You and bush are stat nerds who clearly don't understand that stats alone don't bring Wins/Championships.

Stat-wise Wilt dominates Russell; however Russ routinely beat Wilt in the Playoffs. Astute hoops fans know that stats withOut leadership won't get you far.

Your wet dream LeFraud is not a leader. That's a fact... he's played alongside more talent than arguably any other star in NBA history yet he's got an embarrassing track record of Winning.

You are a fool. It's just that simple.

Even if you were smart enough to troll (you're not - you just can't help yourself but get embroiled in arguments where you have a horse in the race), it's reached the point you're just making an ass of yourself. The numbers are so completely compelling, it's beyond dispute. And Bush and I both played high school hoops. You didn't. Admittedly, I wasn't great because a point guard who can't shoot gets exposed before long, but at least I made a team and saw the floor. You - not so much.

[thedangerouskitchen]

Dude, you got embarrassed and ABUSED. Again.

Between Bush and I, we completely buried you. The team, with LeBron not on the floor, played at a 26 win pace based on point differential. They won 66.

I completely debunked your arguments about the loss to the Magic. You're a babbling idiot who has no ability to recognize his extreme cognitive biases.

You and bush are stat nerds who clearly don't understand that stats alone don't bring Wins/Championships.

Stat-wise Wilt dominates Russell; however Russ routinely beat Wilt in the Playoffs. Astute hoops fans know that stats withOut leadership won't get you far.

Your wet dream LeFraud is not a leader. That's a fact... he's played alongside more talent than arguably any other star in NBA history yet he's got an embarrassing track record of Winning.

You are a fool. It's just that simple.

Even if you were smart enough to troll (you're not - you just can't help yourself but get embroiled in arguments where you have a horse in the race), it's reached the point you're just making an ass of yourself. The numbers are so completely compelling, it's beyond dispute. And Bush and I both played high school hoops. You didn't. Admittedly, I wasn't great because a point guard who can't shoot gets exposed before long, but at least I made a team and saw the floor. You - not so much.

The core issue here is you VERY stupidly calling LeBron's 2009 supporting cast "tomato cans"... and you got castrated with facts (ie; "stats") that proved they were not.

Once again... I acknowledged the fact that they shit the bed in the 2009 ECF, but if your dumb-ass is going to use that one (1) series to call them tomato cans then you must also do the same for every team/player who shit the bed in a Playoff series that they were favored to win.

You played hoops...??? where, in a midget league???

GTHOH.

You are a couch potato stat geek who doesn't have a clue about the intangibles needed to win Championships... If you did you wouldn't be sucking LeBron's dick the way you do. True superstar leaders know the importance of building chemistry and trust, communication (not playing the blame-game), setting the example on BOTH ends of the court, getting your teammates easy buckets when they're struggling with their shot, sacrificing your "stats" to get other guys going, accepting responsibility/blame for losses, etc... that's what true leaders do, which is something LeFraud doesn't do and clearly something you know nothing about.

Now hurry up with my sammich... and this time make it a meatball with mozarella and extra marinara sauce, meatball.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

You and bush are stat nerds who clearly don't understand that stats alone don't bring Wins/Championships.

Stat-wise Wilt dominates Russell; however Russ routinely beat Wilt in the Playoffs. Astute hoops fans know that stats withOut leadership won't get you far.

Your wet dream LeFraud is not a leader. That's a fact... he's played alongside more talent than arguably any other star in NBA history yet he's got an embarrassing track record of Winning.

You are a fool. It's just that simple.

Even if you were smart enough to troll (you're not - you just can't help yourself but get embroiled in arguments where you have a horse in the race), it's reached the point you're just making an ass of yourself. The numbers are so completely compelling, it's beyond dispute. And Bush and I both played high school hoops. You didn't. Admittedly, I wasn't great because a point guard who can't shoot gets exposed before long, but at least I made a team and saw the floor. You - not so much.

The core issue here is you VERY stupidly calling LeBron's 2009 supporting cast "tomato cans"... and you got castrated with facts (ie; "stats") that proved they were not.

Once again... I acknowledged the fact that they shit the bed in the 2009 ECF, but if your dumb-ass is going to use that one (1) series to call them tomato cans then you must also do the same for every team/player who shit the bed in a Playoff series that they were favored to win.

You played hoops...??? where, in a midget league???

GTHOH.

You are a couch potato stat geek who doesn't have a clue about the intangibles needed to win Championships... If you did you wouldn't be sucking LeBron's dick the way you do. True superstar leaders know the importance of building chemistry and trust, communication (not playing the blame-game), setting the example on BOTH ends of the court, getting your teammates easy buckets when they're struggling with their shot, sacrificing your "stats" to get other guys going, accepting responsibility/blame for losses, etc... that's what true leaders do, which is something LeFraud doesn't do and clearly something you know nothing about.

Now hurry up with my sammich... and this time make it a meatball with mozarella and extra marinara sauce, meatball.

They played at an approximate 26 win pace when LeBron wasn't on the floor. That's a fact. Not an opinion. Not conjecture. Isn't it funny that after he left, they only won 19 games? Think about that. The other changes were relatively minor.

Then, lo and behold, LeBron comes back, they make four straight finals and win a championship against a 73 win team. He leaves, they go back to 19 wins. But it's always a coincidence right?

I don't fellate LeBron. I have him 4th on my GOAT list. The vast majority of the world will have him ahead of that when he retires. A big chunk have him as GOAT already, and that drives you crazy because you DO FELLATE JORDAN. That's why you can't ever let anything go with him. It's pathological. I don't have irrational hate for him, and in your eyes, anyone who doesn't shit on him is a disciple.

You don't know shit about hoops TDK. You prove that every day, even if unwittingly. This is just more proof.

[wailuaFC]

Why do we continue to engage with TDK? He’s an NPC who literally isn’t capable of an original thought. Look at his posts, it’s basically just copy and pasting the exact same things and that’s been true for what, 10+ years? I think we should do what we can to help him, because TDK seems like the type not to have an inner monologue

[thedangerouskitchen]

Even if you were smart enough to troll (you're not - you just can't help yourself but get embroiled in arguments where you have a horse in the race), it's reached the point you're just making an ass of yourself. The numbers are so completely compelling, it's beyond dispute. And Bush and I both played high school hoops. You didn't. Admittedly, I wasn't great because a point guard who can't shoot gets exposed before long, but at least I made a team and saw the floor. You - not so much.

The core issue here is you VERY stupidly calling LeBron's 2009 supporting cast "tomato cans"... and you got castrated with facts (ie; "stats") that proved they were not.

Once again... I acknowledged the fact that they shit the bed in the 2009 ECF, but if your dumb-ass is going to use that one (1) series to call them tomato cans then you must also do the same for every team/player who shit the bed in a Playoff series that they were favored to win.

You played hoops...??? where, in a midget league???

GTHOH.

You are a couch potato stat geek who doesn't have a clue about the intangibles needed to win Championships... If you did you wouldn't be sucking LeBron's dick the way you do. True superstar leaders know the importance of building chemistry and trust, communication (not playing the blame-game), setting the example on BOTH ends of the court, getting your teammates easy buckets when they're struggling with their shot, sacrificing your "stats" to get other guys going, accepting responsibility/blame for losses, etc... that's what true leaders do, which is something LeFraud doesn't do and clearly something you know nothing about.

Now hurry up with my sammich... and this time make it a meatball with mozarella and extra marinara sauce, meatball.

They played at an approximate 26 win pace when LeBron wasn't on the floor. That's a fact. Not an opinion. Not conjecture. Isn't it funny that after he left, they only won 19 games? Think about that. The other changes were relatively minor.

Then, lo and behold, LeBron comes back, they make four straight finals and win a championship against a 73 win team. He leaves, they go back to 19 wins. But it's always a coincidence right?

This isn't about how the team performed after LeFraud left Cleveland both times, meatball... but since you brought it up, nice job "conveniently" ignoring the fact that in 2011 all the Cavs' best players each missed large chunks of the season to injury, while the 2019 Cavs ALSO lost Kyrie Irving, and had Kevin Love on the court for only 22 games that year. To put that in perspective, it's like the 1994 Bulls losing Jordan to retirement, Pippen to FA, and Horace Grant to injury for 75% of the season.

My guess is they win 19 games too... but hey, when grizz is busy sucking LeFraud's stick there's no room for context and perspective, eh?



Getting back to the topic, of course the 2009 Cavs were going to perform significantly worse when their lone superstar is off the floor, especially since that team was built 100% around the strengths and style of LeFraud. But once again (and pay attention this time because this is important) LeFraud wasn't the guy on the floor actually "making" all those shots, his teammates were... in particular from long-range, where LeFraud ranked 8th(!!!) on the team in 3PT%. Also LeFraud wasn't guarding all 5 positions on the floor simultaneously. On the contrary that Defense was anchored by three (3) excellent Big Man defenders... and in YOUR OWN words defending Bill Russell, Big Man defenders are much more important/valuable to a team than perimeter/wing defenders (ie; LeFraud)... and it was those (2) facets that were the primary reason for the 2009 Cavs' success.

Yes, LeFraud was BY FAR the best and most valuable player on the team; however no one (1) player, regardless of how great he is, is going to lead a team to 66 wins (and sweep their first 2 playoff opponents) while surrounded by tomato can teammates. It's just not possible.. and only an absolute moron (ie; YOU) would suggest that it is.

Did his supporting cast lay an egg in the ECF? Of course they did... just like LeFraud himself has done boatloads of times throughout his career. I guess that makes him a tomato can as well?

[ElJorge]

Why do we continue to engage with TDK? He’s an NPC who literally isn’t capable of an original thought. Look at his posts, it’s basically just copy and pasting the exact same things and that’s been true for what, 10+ years? I think we should do what we can to help him, because TDK seems like the type not to have an inner monologue

[Bush4Ever.]

I don't remember Wailua being so savage in the early and middle history of the AG community.

It seems like he's leveled up in that regard, particularly towards TDK.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Why do we continue to engage with TDK? He’s an NPC who literally isn’t capable of an original thought. Look at his posts, it’s basically just copy and pasting the exact same things and that’s been true for what, 10+ years? I think we should do what we can to help him, because TDK seems like the type not to have an inner monologue

He's right though. Why do we do it? It's a bit like the Einstein quote: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." It's like debating with Artman. No matter how often you bury them, they lack the awareness to recognize it. I have 'mostly' stopped engaging Artie as a result. TDK really is the same. So unaware of his biases as to make intelligent debate impossible. This thread is just another classic example.

[Titan18]

I love Wailua but he was never the same after he came back here saying he was being haunted by demons

[thedangerouskitchen]

Why do we continue to engage with TDK? He’s an NPC who literally isn’t capable of an original thought. Look at his posts, it’s basically just copy and pasting the exact same things and that’s been true for what, 10+ years? I think we should do what we can to help him, because TDK seems like the type not to have an inner monologue

He's right though. Why do we do it? It's a bit like the Einstein quote: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." It's like debating with Artman. No matter how often you bury them, they lack the awareness to recognize it. I have 'mostly' stopped engaging Artie as a result. TDK really is the same. So unaware of his biases as to make intelligent debate impossible. This thread is just another classic example.

The 2009 Cavs won 21 more games than they did the previous season YET LeFraud's individual production in BOTH seasons was nearly identical:

2008: 30.0 / 7.9 / 7.2 / 1.8 / 1.1 in 40min on .484%/.315%/ .712% 40 min/g)
2009: 28.4 / 7.6 / 7.2 / 1.7 / 1.1 in 38 min on .489%/.344%/.780% (38 min/g)

3PT% = 1.5 makes on 4.8 attempts in 2008 vs. 1.6 on 4.7 in 2009
FT's = 7.3 makes on 10.3 attempts in 2008 vs. 7.3 on 9.4 in 2009

Marginally better shooting; virtually the same production overall both seasons (factoring in minutes played). CLEARLY nothing dramatically better (in 2009) so as to justify such a significant improvement in the TEAM's success.

So what changed?

Exaaaaaactly... 1) his teammates stayed healthy all year (unlike 2008) and 2) his teammates (with the addition of All Star Mo Williams) stepped up their production, in particular Defense (#3 ranked in 2009 vs. #11 in 2008) and 3-Point shooting (#2 in 2009 vs. #16 in 2008).

These are irrefutable facts, meatball... no matter how hard you try and convince yourself that they don't matter. Again: You don't win 66 games (with elite Shooting and elite Defense) and sweep your first 2 playoff opponents with tomato can teammates... that too is an irrefutable fact.

You should have bowed out of this exchange long ago; now you're just embarrassing yourself. You literally got bent over and castrated with facts, substance and common sense... any objective reader can see that clearly.

Be gone now, "Einstein".

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

He's right though. Why do we do it? It's a bit like the Einstein quote: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." It's like debating with Artman. No matter how often you bury them, they lack the awareness to recognize it. I have 'mostly' stopped engaging Artie as a result. TDK really is the same. So unaware of his biases as to make intelligent debate impossible. This thread is just another classic example.

The 2009 Cavs won 21 more games than they did the previous season YET LeFraud's individual production in BOTH seasons was nearly identical:

2008: 30.0 / 7.9 / 7.2 / 1.8 / 1.1 in 40min on .484%/.315%/ .712% 40 min/g)
2009: 28.4 / 7.6 / 7.2 / 1.7 / 1.1 in 38 min on .489%/.344%/.780% (38 min/g)

3PT% = 1.5 makes on 4.8 attempts in 2008 vs. 1.6 on 4.7 in 2009
FT's = 7.3 makes on 10.3 attempts in 2008 vs. 7.3 on 9.4 in 2009

Marginally better shooting; virtually the same production overall both seasons (factoring in minutes played). CLEARLY nothing dramatically better (in 2009) so as to justify such a significant improvement in the TEAM's success.

So what changed?

Exaaaaaactly... 1) his teammates stayed healthy all year (unlike 2008) and 2) his teammates (with the addition of All Star Mo Williams) stepped up their production, in particular Defense (#3 ranked in 2009 vs. #11 in 2008) and 3-Point shooting (#2 in 2009 vs. #16 in 2008).

These are irrefutable facts, meatball... no matter how hard you try and convince yourself that they don't matter. Again: You don't win 66 games (with elite Shooting and elite Defense) and sweep your first 2 playoff opponents with tomato can teammates... that too is an irrefutable fact.

You should have bowed out of this exchange long ago; now you're just embarrassing yourself. You literally got bent over and castrated with facts, substance and common sense... any objective reader can see that clearly.

Be gone now, "Einstein".

No TDK.

First, the 21 game improvement is very misleading. Lebron missed 7 games the prior season and they were 0-7 in those games. Sound familiar? The improvement, excluding those 7 losses is much less than 21. He missed 1 game in 2009. Guess what? They lost that game. So 0-8 over the two seasons in games he missed. Noticing a pattern my challenged friend?

The numbers show the team was outstanding with LeBron on the floor. Excluding the abysmal 0-8 without him playing in those two seasons, they were playing at a 26 win pace without him based on expected win totals on point differential in 2009. It's questionable whether they were even that competent.

[Da Stars.]

I just need to know one thing how much alcohol do I need to consume to read this thread

[ElJorge]

I just need to know one thing how much alcohol do I need to consume to read this thread

I wouldn’t bother. It’s gets really redundant by page 3.

[Thedictator]

I just need to know one thing how much alcohol do I need to consume to read this thread

I wouldn’t bother. It’s gets really redundant by page 3.

This was all i read so far, thanks for the heads up

[thedangerouskitchen]

He's right though. Why do we do it? It's a bit like the Einstein quote: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." It's like debating with Artman. No matter how often you bury them, they lack the awareness to recognize it. I have 'mostly' stopped engaging Artie as a result. TDK really is the same. So unaware of his biases as to make intelligent debate impossible. This thread is just another classic example.

The 2009 Cavs won 21 more games than they did the previous season YET LeFraud's individual production in BOTH seasons was nearly identical:

2008: 30.0 / 7.9 / 7.2 / 1.8 / 1.1 in 40min on .484%/.315%/ .712% 40 min/g)
2009: 28.4 / 7.6 / 7.2 / 1.7 / 1.1 in 38 min on .489%/.344%/.780% (38 min/g)

3PT% = 1.5 makes on 4.8 attempts in 2008 vs. 1.6 on 4.7 in 2009
FT's = 7.3 makes on 10.3 attempts in 2008 vs. 7.3 on 9.4 in 2009

Marginally better shooting; virtually the same production overall both seasons (factoring in minutes played). CLEARLY nothing dramatically better (in 2009) so as to justify such a significant improvement in the TEAM's success.

So what changed?

Exaaaaaactly... 1) his teammates stayed healthy all year (unlike 2008) and 2) his teammates (with the addition of All Star Mo Williams) stepped up their production, in particular Defense (#3 ranked in 2009 vs. #11 in 2008) and 3-Point shooting (#2 in 2009 vs. #16 in 2008).

These are irrefutable facts, meatball... no matter how hard you try and convince yourself that they don't matter. Again: You don't win 66 games (with elite Shooting and elite Defense) and sweep your first 2 playoff opponents with tomato can teammates... that too is an irrefutable fact.

You should have bowed out of this exchange long ago; now you're just embarrassing yourself. You literally got bent over and castrated with facts, substance and common sense... any objective reader can see that clearly.

Be gone now, "Einstein".

No TDK.

First, the 21 game improvement is very misleading. Lebron missed 7 games the prior season and they were 0-7 in those games. Sound familiar? The improvement, excluding those 7 losses is much less than 21. He missed 1 game in 2009. Guess what? They lost that game. So 0-8 over the two seasons in games he missed. Noticing a pattern my challenged friend?

The numbers show the team was outstanding with LeBron on the floor. Excluding the abysmal 0-8 without him playing in those two seasons, they were playing at a 26 win pace without him based on expected win totals on point differential in 2009. It's questionable whether they were even that competent.

at "they were playing at a 26-win pace without him based on expected win totals on point differential in 2009".



What a weak and pathetic retort.

But that aside, and to be clear: Your argument states that when a team performs significantly worse withOut a superstar on the floor that means the supporting cast is a bunch of tomato cans.

...and with that logic you actually believe you're burying me, meatball?

Well here's a newsflash: You're not. In fact you're only further showcasing your stupidity on the issue. Case in point: The 1995 Bulls were 34-31 when Jordan returned (a 52% Winning Pct.). After his return they went 13-4 (76%). Extraplated over an 82 game season and they win 43 games withOut Jordan, 62 games with him.

In other words Jordan's 1995 supporting cast were TOMATO CANS by your logic!



Again: You're clueless. Give it a rest already.

[_Vcsgrizzfan_]

Sorry facts bother you. They were a 26 win pace team. They were 0-8 over two seasons in the games LeBron missed. They slid to 19 wins when he left and averaged under 25 until he returned 4 years later. Not conjecture. Facts.

You will never admit that team was AWFUL without him. I'm done wasting my breath on this topic that I have beaten you like a rented mule over and over and over again. Uncle.