Was he?Robceltsfan wrote:
All due respect to Duncan....but he was far more than one step behind Bird and Magic offensively.
Bush4Ever wrote:In general, Duncan's was maybe a step behind those two offensively (in general), but he was several levels above them defensively, and when the hardware starts to equal out....
I actually meant other non-ring hardware as well. Duncan has more all-star showings, all-defensive teams out the ears (to almost zero for both Bird and Magic), probably a similar number of all-nba teams, etc...AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Equaling out hardware needs to parsed with a lot of context.
For example, Bird won "only" 3 rings. Meanwhile, he lot in the NBA Finals multiple times to a team led by two top 5 all-time players on it. He also battled the Philadelphis 76ers... and the 1983 team was considered one of the best in NBA history. Plus, the 2-time champion Detroit Pistons. And even early Michael Jordan teams.
For his part, Magic lost to Bird. And Jordan. And that 1983 76ers squad. And those Pistons.
Bush4Ever wrote:I actually meant other non-ring hardware as well. Duncan has more all-star showings, all-defensive teams out the ears (to almost zero for both Bird and Magic), probably a similar number of all-nba teams, etc...AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Equaling out hardware needs to parsed with a lot of context.
For example, Bird won "only" 3 rings. Meanwhile, he lot in the NBA Finals multiple times to a team led by two top 5 all-time players on it. He also battled the Philadelphis 76ers... and the 1983 team was considered one of the best in NBA history. Plus, the 2-time champion Detroit Pistons. And even early Michael Jordan teams.
For his part, Magic lost to Bird. And Jordan. And that 1983 76ers squad. And those Pistons.
But on this point, Magic and Bird also *had* supporting talent in absolute terms that Duncan couldn't dream of, so it sort of equals out for the most part.
Generally, when all three were winning rings, they were doing it with the best (or near best) supporting cast in the league, beating the near-best (or best) supporting cast(s) along the way. The only exception to that might be Duncan in 2003.
One thing though, is that both Duncan and Bird (usually) had to go through multiple teams with that type of talent, whereas Magic usually only had to go through one team at the end. For most the 1980s anyway.
Bush4Ever wrote:Was he?Robceltsfan wrote:
All due respect to Duncan....but he was far more than one step behind Bird and Magic offensively.
I don't think so, when you take pace/minutes into account.
I do think he is third in that group, but it's not an overwhelmingly distant third.
Yes, that's why I pointed out Duncan's massive edge defensively.AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Sure. I get all that. That's the one glaring hole in Bird and Magic's resumes... longevity. LeBron James has already played more games than they did. They can't compete once longevity is factored into it.
Part of that is timing. Part of it is injuries. Part of it is Paula Abdul.
The question is how much of it should be factored into it? I think that varies by person.
I asked specifically about pace/minutes played. The modern game generally limits those aspects relative to the 1980s (especially for stars), so you have to adjust for that somewhat.Robceltsfan wrote:
Duncan was a really good offensive player, but he had limited range, was a sub-par FT shooter, and peaked as a 25.5 PPG guy. I know it's hard to differentiate the cream from the other cream......but Duncan is not the offensive player the others were.
Bush4Ever wrote:I asked specifically about pace/minutes played. The modern game generally limits those aspects relative to the 1980s (especially for stars), so you have to adjust for that somewhat.Robceltsfan wrote:
Duncan was a really good offensive player, but he had limited range, was a sub-par FT shooter, and peaked as a 25.5 PPG guy. I know it's hard to differentiate the cream from the other cream......but Duncan is not the offensive player the others were.
Some would say it's injustice to use stats for players from a league who's talent pool was split with another league.Macrotus wrote:uh...couldn't we just use the Greatest All-Time list and remove any players from the pre merger and be done with.
It's injustice just to use half of a player career on an All-Time list.
Macrotus wrote:uh...couldn't we just use the Greatest All-Time list and remove any players from the pre merger and be done with?
It's injustice just to use half of a player career on an All-Time list.
and why the hell Duncan moved up over Magic...when the previous all time list has Magic over Duncan?
He's definitely far behind Magic Johnson impact-wise on offense.Bush4Ever wrote:Was he?Robceltsfan wrote:
All due respect to Duncan....but he was far more than one step behind Bird and Magic offensively.
I don't think so, when you take pace/minutes into account.
I do think he is third in that group, but it's not an overwhelmingly distant third.
rofl...and all this time...I thought that was supposed to be the official All-Time list.AbeVigodaLive wrote:Macrotus wrote:uh...couldn't we just use the Greatest All-Time list and remove any players from the pre merger and be done with?
It's injustice just to use half of a player career on an All-Time list.
and why the hell Duncan moved up over Magic...when the previous all time list has Magic over Duncan?
While it makes sense to some degree... it's less about the results and more about the buildup. If we ran the other list again... we'd see different results all over the place.
If you just want to look at scoring and drill down to a single season, you see a gap, given that Bird's 1988 season was a clear outlier, opposed to Duncan, who didn't really have a similar season to match.Robceltsfan wrote:
The pace difference was about 8% between Bird and Duncan's 2 best scoring seasons. The usage % was 29.0 for Duncan...27.5 for Bird. MPG was 40.6 for Duncan...39.0 for Bird.
Duncan peaked at 25.5 and Bird at 29.9.
Magic supporters were lacking in the voting last round.Macrotus wrote:uh...couldn't we just use the Greatest All-Time list and remove any players from the pre merger and be done with?
It's injustice just to use half of a player career on an All-Time list.
and why the hell Duncan moved up over Magic...when the previous all time list has Magic over Duncan?
Bush4Ever wrote:If you just want to look at scoring and drill down to a single season, you see a gap, given that Bird's 1988 season was a clear outlier, opposed to Duncan, who didn't really have a similar season to match.Robceltsfan wrote:
The pace difference was about 8% between Bird and Duncan's 2 best scoring seasons. The usage % was 29.0 for Duncan...27.5 for Bird. MPG was 40.6 for Duncan...39.0 for Bird.
Duncan peaked at 25.5 and Bird at 29.9.
Yet, if you extend it out:
Career:
Duncan: 30.1 points per 100 possessions
Bird: 30.3 points per 100 possessions
Five-year best:
Duncan: 33.5, 32.9, 32.8, 31.6, 31.6
Bird: 37.6, 34.3, 33.6, 32.2, 30.3
I'm not arguing Duncan was better or even equal offensively, but I do think the gap is modest enough for the gigantic defensive gap to swing things, even if offense matters more than defense for individual players.
Duncan is clearly more than "moderately" better than Bird defensively. That's really bad homerism broseph.Robceltsfan wrote:Bush4Ever wrote:If you just want to look at scoring and drill down to a single season, you see a gap, given that Bird's 1988 season was a clear outlier, opposed to Duncan, who didn't really have a similar season to match.Robceltsfan wrote:
The pace difference was about 8% between Bird and Duncan's 2 best scoring seasons. The usage % was 29.0 for Duncan...27.5 for Bird. MPG was 40.6 for Duncan...39.0 for Bird.
Duncan peaked at 25.5 and Bird at 29.9.
Yet, if you extend it out:
Career:
Duncan: 30.1 points per 100 possessions
Bird: 30.3 points per 100 possessions
Five-year best:
Duncan: 33.5, 32.9, 32.8, 31.6, 31.6
Bird: 37.6, 34.3, 33.6, 32.2, 30.3
I'm not arguing Duncan was better or even equal offensively, but I do think the gap is modest enough for the gigantic defensive gap to swing things, even if offense matters more than defense for individual players.
Meh....I disagree. Duncan is moderately better than Bird defensively. Bird is more-than-marginally better than Duncan offensively. If we're going to bring points/possession into it, then the fact that Duncan has been able to play of fresher legs, on less minutes per game, has to also factor in.
I think that is exaggerated somewhat. We are still talking about two elite offensive players. It's tough for a 23/11/50 percent shooting/great passing for the position type player to be miles behind anyone offensively. We might be comparing someone in the 99th percentile to someone in the 95th percentile (Magic/Duncan, repsectively).y2ktors wrote:
He's definitely far behind Magic Johnson impact-wise on offense.
I didn't say marginally....I said moderately.vcsgrizzfan wrote:Duncan is clearly more than "moderately" better than Bird defensively. That's really bad homerism broseph.Robceltsfan wrote:Bush4Ever wrote:
If you just want to look at scoring and drill down to a single season, you see a gap, given that Bird's 1988 season was a clear outlier, opposed to Duncan, who didn't really have a similar season to match.
Yet, if you extend it out:
Career:
Duncan: 30.1 points per 100 possessions
Bird: 30.3 points per 100 possessions
Five-year best:
Duncan: 33.5, 32.9, 32.8, 31.6, 31.6
Bird: 37.6, 34.3, 33.6, 32.2, 30.3
I'm not arguing Duncan was better or even equal offensively, but I do think the gap is modest enough for the gigantic defensive gap to swing things, even if offense matters more than defense for individual players.
Meh....I disagree. Duncan is moderately better than Bird defensively. Bird is more-than-marginally better than Duncan offensively. If we're going to bring points/possession into it, then the fact that Duncan has been able to play of fresher legs, on less minutes per game, has to also factor in.
Relax. I've defended Bird's defense a number of times, but he ain't in Duncan's area code defensively. Take the fucking really bad homer glasses off and a deep breath while you're at it.Robceltsfan wrote:I didn't say marginally....I said moderately.vcsgrizzfan wrote:Duncan is clearly more than "moderately" better than Bird defensively. That's really bad homerism broseph.Robceltsfan wrote:
Meh....I disagree. Duncan is moderately better than Bird defensively. Bird is more-than-marginally better than Duncan offensively. If we're going to bring points/possession into it, then the fact that Duncan has been able to play of fresher legs, on less minutes per game, has to also factor in.
Bird wasn't some fucking bum on the defensive end. He led the NBA in DWS 4 times and twice made 2nd-team All-defense. I get tired of people acting like Bird was some liability on the defensive end. That is not the truth. He was an outstanding defensive rebounder despite playing the 3 most of his career (and having Parish & McHale taking many rebounds). He had a career defensive rating of 101 compared to Duncan's 96. Their respective offensive ratings were 115 and 110....the exact same 5 point difference.
I'm not homering shit.
