2014 Anger General Geatest of All Time: #27 selection

[Odogg]

Funny how Isaiah couldn't make the 92 Dream Team cuz nobody wanted to play with his selfish punk ass.

[AbeVigodaLive]

21/13 for his career. Even better stats in the playoffs. Blocks too.

Lead dog ring in 78. Great playoffs. Great battles with Kareem in college, which you watched live.

What's funny is that if we just go by stats we see that Elvin Hayes played better in the playoffs. More points. More rebounds.

But if you go by anecdotal accounts... he was known as a "guaranteed loser"... a phrase written in Sports Illustrated about him. Sure, he won a title. But look closer...

Yes. Hayes won a title. To some, they'll move him ahead of guys without rings just because of that ring. But, look closer. Hayes scored 145 points in those Finals. He scored only 19 of those (13%) in the 4th quarters. And that was allegedly not an anomaly. But they won the title... look closer. Hayes fouled out with 10 minutes to go (only 12 points) in the 7th game. His team won him that title while he was out... on the road. What makes it more interesting is that the newspapers ran a huge story that morning about Hayes' history of "choking" in big games, most noteworthy the 1975 upset Finals loss to Golden State. As predicted, he played poorly... but his team bailed him out.

Here's an excerpt from an article after they won: "Even the winning of the championship after nine futile seasons failed to erase Hayes’ reputation as a choker. The collapse of the Philadelphia 76ers, and injuries to Bill Walton and other Portland Trail Blazers, tainted the Bullets’ win over the Seattle SuperSonics. Because Hayes fouled out of two of the final seven games—including the seventh—some fans felt that the Bullets won despite Hayes rather than because of him.”

Plus, Hayes was one of those cats who posted HUGE numbers right away in his career playing in the fractured ABA/NBA days with half the best players in the other league. (28/17) He did it while shooting a lousy percentage for below .500 teams. When he stopped shooting so much, his teams started winning.

Consider that in his prime... after his 4th year in the league... he was traded for a guy named Jack Marin. Straight up...

Hayes was hated by more than the media. There's a laundry list of folks (coaches and players) who point to Hayes' selfishness on the court as being damaging to the team.

In my opinion... we're at least 10 spots away from Elvin Hayes.

Everybody has their haters. The facts state otherwise.

Hayes joined the NBA with the San Diego Rockets in 1968 and in his rookie year, he scored a career-high 54 points against the Detroit Pistons on November 11 of that year. As a rookie, Hayes led the NBA in scoring with 28.4 points per game, averaged 17.1 rebounds per game, and was named to the NBA All-Rookie Team. Hayes' scoring average is the fifth best all-time for a rookie, and he remains the last rookie to lead the NBA in scoring average.

In Hayes' second season, he led the NBA in rebounding, becoming the first player other than Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain to lead the category since 1957 (Chamberlain was injured during much of the season). In Hayes' third season, 1970–71, he scored a career best 28.7 points per game. In 1971, the Rockets moved to Houston, enabling Hayes to play in the city of his college triumphs. In 1972, Hayes was traded to the Baltimore Bullets, where he teamed with Hall-Of-Famer Wes Unseld to form a fierce and dominating frontcourt combination. The 18.1 rebounds per game Hayes averaged in 1974 is the third highest rebounding average of any NBA player since Wilt Chamberlain retired in 1973.

Hayes and Unseld later led the Washington Bullets to 3 NBA Finals (1975, 1978, and 1979), and an NBA title over The Seattle SuperSonics in 1978. He shined brightly, especially in the NBA playoffs. During the Bullets' championship season (1978), he averaged 21.8 points and 12.1 rebounds per game in 21 playoff games. One year later, he set an NBA Finals record for most offensive rebounds in a game (11), in a May 27, 1979 game against the SuperSonics. The Chicago Bulls' Dennis Rodman would tie this record twice, both games coming in the 1996 NBA Finals, also against the SuperSonics.

On June 8, 1981, Hayes was traded to the Houston Rockets. The "Big E" closed out his career with the Rockets in 1984. Hayes had a career scoring average of 21.0 points and 12.5 rebounds per game. He played at least 80 games in every season. He ranks fourth in NBA history in total rebounds, behind Chamberlain, Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

1. So Elvin Hayes got significantly worse as he played in the NBA. Hmmm... don't know why that's a good thing. (Note: Those great stats were posted on lousy teams in a fractured league... with poor efficiency. He was known for his turnaround jumper... not the most efficient shot for a big man.)
2. Yes. His college hometown traded him for Jack Marin or somebody. That's how badly they wanted him out. And this was in his prime.
3. Here's a quote from his former coach at the time: “Hayes was exactly the kind of player I did not want. He's a front-runner. Put him in a situation where there's tension and he does not face it with courage. Give him a challenge and he'll always find some excuse to fold. I still believe it. Even last year, the Bullets won despite him rather than because of him." Bitter ex-coach?

Here's one from Tex Winter: When Tex Winter asked to Hayes share the ball more, Hayes replied, “I’m an all-star. Don’t expect me to pass. It’s like asking Babe Ruth to bunt.” Winter's response was
“I found him so lacking in fundamentals. It's true that I tried to mold him into my concept of what a post man should be, but I could not get any response from him and that caused all sorts of problems on the club. He knew he was more valuable than I was and there was just no way I could build a young club around him."

Ok. Another bitter coach. What about Bill Fitch. He coached Hayes at the end of his career. Here's a nugget about that: Before Hayes' final season with Rockets in '84, he made a big deal about mentoring prized rookie Ralph Sampson, causing Houston coach Bill Fitch to pull Sampson aside and tell him, "You stay away from that no-good **** prick."

4. Again... he fell apart repeatedly at the end in big games. Either we can go by the stats I provided in my previous post about his production being cut in half and his team winning the title with him on the bench as proof... or we can go by the many quotes and anecdotal stories about him from those who played with and against him. Has anybody here actually seen him play much? I'm not that old. Grizz?

[Bush4Ever]

Interesting how Rick Barry played in that same apparently "stat-loaded" era, yet put up just avg stats, other than 3 or 4 great scoring seasons.

FWIW, Barry had a noticeably higher PER than Hayes on average.

Hayes never had a season where his PER topped 20.

[Bush4Ever]

Just as an FYI, when I come across some basketball things I don't know quite as much about, I've found doing a search on realGM pretty helpful. Some good basketball minds there with some smart guys, and even some old-timers who can remember some of these guys from the old days.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Just as an FYI, when I come across some basketball things I don't know quite as much about, I've found doing a search on realGM pretty helpful. Some good basketball minds there with some smart guys, and even some old-timers who can remember some of these guys from the old days.

And, Real GM says about Hayes...?

[Bush4Ever]

What we've touched on basically, but I also found this quote:

"For some players and coaches, being around Elvin every day is like a Chinese water torture," John Lally, a trainer with the Washington Bullets when Hayes was with the team, told the Washington Post. "It's just a drop at a time, nothing big, but in the end, he's driven you crazy."

[Da Stars.]

Scott May.

[Odogg]

What we've touched on basically, but I also found this quote:

"For some players and coaches, being around Elvin every day is like a Chinese water torture," John Lally, a trainer with the Washington Bullets when Hayes was with the team, told the Washington Post. "It's just a drop at a time, nothing big, but in the end, he's driven you crazy."

Oh shit, that sounds like Dwight Howard.

[876Stephen]

Finally, my hard work is paying dividends.

[Y2K]

Finally, my hard work is paying dividends.

Yep.

[Y2K]

Voting for this round closes at 8 CST.

[thedangerouskitchen]

I'm happy that Pippen and Isiah were rightfully kept out of the top 25.

TDK thinks that Pippen should rank higher than LeBron all time.

Yeah well, to TDK's defense, he was born a retard, and is now hooked on pain pills.

Two of TDK's biggest bitches ^^^^

Enough said.